Galloromans: Marian Cohorts?

Hi,

in my game, the Romans have conquered all of Gaul but were thrown out of Italy, hence I called them "Imperium Galloromanum". So Gaul is since 30 years firmly under their control.

So if the Romans really survive in Gaul against their own Gaulish subjugates, what military would they field? They can't train Polybian troops any more of course, have only some of them left. Surely there would be created units that bring together the best of both worlds.

That's why I came up with the idea of making the Marian Reforms for them available. I believe Marian troops are trainable in Gallia, right? The Romans always learned from other cultures' militaries. The helmet and chainmail of the cohorts is Celtic style, isn't it?

Would you think it's feasable to make Marian Cohorts for them available, as some sort of evolved Gallo-Roman soldier?

You could make the Neitos available at lower level MICs or something. They seem like the kind of way Roman overloads would field Gallic subjects if they had to depend on them for heavy infantry.

no, u'll fight hordes of endless vigiles. Use Massalia and northern Italy as a base and purge the unclean back into the warp.

Sounds like an interesting campaign. I expect you to have been thrown out on purpose? As an experiment? Nothing has ever thrown my Romans out of anywhere for more than a year or two if I did not want to (I just let Ankyra rebel so the Averni had somewhere to hide from the Sweboz hordes. Of course that leaves them at war with me, but that will allow me, not the Sweboz, to get Massilia).

That's a very interesting question actually. If you ask me, I don't think you could see a "Roman Empire" reborn from Roman fugitives in Gallia. Certainly, the local troops would be influenced by Roman society, customs, etc., but I am certain that it would be the Romans who would be more influenced by the Celtic society.

So basically I don't believe it would be possible to see Marian units in this case :sweatdrop:

Maion

Well, why not? I mean, sure, you will see quite a bit of Vigiles and Lugoae, but the Marians are trainable almost everywhere, so your "GalloRomans" should field some of them too. If they have the higher factional MICs that is. However, those things take quite some time to build, so I don't know if the AI will actually go the extra kilometre to do it. Perhaps adding some money for AI?

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

That's a very interesting question actually. If you ask me, I don't think you could see a "Roman Empire" reborn from Roman fugitives in Gallia. Certainly, the local troops would be influenced by Roman society, customs, etc., but I am certain that it would be the Romans who would be more influenced by the Celtic society.

So basically I don't believe it would be possible to see Marian units in this case :sweatdrop:

Maion

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I disagree. Think about Quintus Sertorius in Spain. He raised Spanish Legions formed of warriors of allied tribes and even an exile senate. I think it would work very well in Gaul. Especially since the Gauls had a similar battle doctrine (so to speak), relying on heavy infantry.

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Originally Posted by machinor

I disagree. Think about Quintus Sertorius in Spain. He raised Spanish Legions formed of warriors of allied tribes and even an exile senate. I think it would work very well in Gaul. Especially since the Gauls had a similar battle doctrine (so to speak), relying on heavy infantry.

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Allow me to explain. Quintus Sentorius lived at a time when Rome was under Roman control, which means that it was Rome that influenced her subjugees instead of vice-versa. Of course, Rome was also influenced by foreign cultures.

Now, what Centurio did, was to defeat the Romans and force them to flee to Gallia, where they "migrated" in order to save their lives. Think about the Lucanians; they fled to Celtic-occupied land and inherited lots of Celtic characteristics, while abandoning many of theirs. Of course, they kept some features that where unique to their national identity (like their robes for example).

So basically, a small Roman population (in comparison to the vast Celtic one residing in Gallia) would be bound to get influenced and - eventually - intermingle with the local populance. The Romans had several features the Celts didn't; written laws, strict military discipline, a much different military ethos, a different approach to life in general. Plus, the Romans always hated the Gauls (Brennus, anyone?). So it would be like living in a world surrounded by demons at first. Of course, slowly but steadily the hate would subside and the two cultures would merge together, in some way, with the Celtic element obviously getting the upper hand.

Not that I actually think it would be possible for a small Roman population to actually subjugate Gallia long enough before getting ripped to pieces by the local people, but anyway. There was no Caesar, cartainly, nor substantial technological improvement by the time Centurio kicked the Romans out of their homelands, so Roman elements would never been able to actually "penetrate" Celtic society, in a way a conqueror does with his subjugees. So I view this as a mingle between the two people, like Gallic kings accepting Romans in their lands in exchange for knowledge and technology. Even that, sounds pretty strange and highly unlikely to me.

Maion

I reckon it would depend a lot on who had defeated them as well. The Romans were always very good at adapting in extremis. They would surely ditch the old military structure if they had been so comprehensively defeated while using it. Changing to an inferior version of the same tactics that had already seen them lose would not even be an option IMO.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

Sounds like an interesting campaign. I expect you to have been thrown out on purpose? As an experiment? Nothing has ever thrown my Romans out of anywhere for more than a year or two if I did not want to (I just let Ankyra rebel so the Averni had somewhere to hide from the Sweboz hordes. Of course that leaves them at war with me, but that will allow me, not the Sweboz, to get Massilia).

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Sorry if I wasn't clear! I'm Makedonia. I kicked their butts.

Of the 11 settlements they have, they have upgraded three settlements to Roman cities. One of these more Romanized towns they made their capital. I live since more or less 25 years peacefully with them, although there is officially the state of war. They are filthy rich, the richest faction in the game, but they have close to no military. All they have is a half stack, and almost all towns are guarded by a single unit or a lonesome family member.

In comparison, the Lusitanians have only five settlements left, of which I alreay pillaged two, but they keep and keep attacking me. They really put up a great fight, contrary to the Getai who don't do anything with their three full stacks. But that's another story...

I think the crucial point is the following: do the Romans survive in enemy territory or not? They can only survive if they impose a significant part of their culture, structure and doctrine on the Gauls, at least initially. The Gauls are already fairly civilised (albeit surely not in the eyes of the Romans), so they could most likely adapt to their new overlords. Not so good as the Greeks did adapt to the Romans, sure, but much better than the Germans for example.

If the Romans do not impose their military structure on the Gauls, they'd get kicked out. If they let them recruit Celtic units of a class above Lugoae or Gaeroas, they would revolt and quickly do perfectly without the Romans.

Also, I had my Yuezhi incursion already, but no Casse invasion so far. I'm getting into trouble to explain why the Casse don't take on the opportunity and simply steamroll all of Gaul. They have four full stacks waiting in Londinium. I have to decide whether I teleport them over, and let the Galloroman Empire be a mere footnote of history, or if I allow the Galloromans a reform, a product of the intermingling of cultures, so that they'd be finally able to repel the Britons and put up a great fight against me.

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I reckon it would depend a lot on who had defeated them as well.

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I defeated them, but only in Italy! At the same time I kicked them out, they kicked the Aedui and Arverni out of Gaul. They had taken on Gaul early, and had conquered an access to the channel already, when I launched a Celtic crusade to liberate the Celts in Northern Italy. I gave these settlements to the Arverni, who had a really large empire by then. But these treatment made the Romans only stronger. They just did not give up, and while they lost to me, they carved out a Gallic empire and defeated the Arverni in absolutely no time. Read it in my AAR!

Maybe you should just roleplay that the Kelts overthrew their Roman overlords who were in the minority, but they decided to kept some of their technology (city appearance and building types). Then just rename and recolor them something Keltic. Although you'd have to ignore the names of the generals.

Thank you for all comments. I have decided that they'll get their Cohortes Gallicae. I want them strong, and I want a difficult conquest of Gaul, and I want a bloodbath, and.. ah you know the rest. :wink:

I did it! Please look at the screens, they have built 3 C. Reformata and 5 C. Evocata in their first turn of the "Galloroman Reform". I've made a lovely descripiton for each. :wink:

https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/...chekohorte.jpg

https://img22.imageshack.us/img22/10...cheevocati.jpg

Oddly, I don't see any signs of the Marians! In EBBS, I set the random percent to 100, and the minimum number of provinces to 10 (they have 11). Now they should have them, right? But I don't see any marker. :huh:

The reason they already have the troops is that I changed EDB, so that the Romans can recruit Cohors Reformata, Evocata and Antesignani from the levels 3, 4 and 5 of the Celtic MICs 4 and 5 (why do these Celts have two factional MICs?) in their respective provinces. Although they are swimming in money, they didn't come up with building any buildings, aside from the odd amphitheatre. :huh:

Are those screenshots spoilers for your AAR? (which is great, btw)

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Originally Posted by penguinking

Are those screenshots spoilers for your AAR? (which is great, btw)

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Thanks, 76 years ahead.

Nice doings there, Centurio. I'm eagerly awaiting for the rest of the Anabaseis, aspecially the Emphylios :wink:

Maion

Wow, that is marvellous. Reminds me of MAA and his constant tinkering with EB for his role-playing and his AAR.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Wow, that is marvellous. Reminds me of MAA and his constant tinkering with EB for his role-playing and his AAR.

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:bow: Actually MAA inspired me to mini-mod my own campaign. You can always visit my AAR btw. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

:bow: Actually MAA inspired me to mini-mod my own campaign. You can always visit my AAR btw. :wink:

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Yeah, I need to visit the AARs more often. The last time I looked in that sub-forum was three months ago! I know of MAA's quasi-new AAR, but that is all. I just do not have the time for all that. However, now I have spring break, starting tomorrow, so I will go and check that sub-forum. I will read yours and MAA's first :wink::2thumbsup: