Free Speech - Some people just don't like it

I have been watching the threads on this forum for many years and more so with the release of ETW.
As we all know the game shipped with considerable problems that hopefully will be fixed in the coming months.

What I find disturbing is that as people have expressed themselves either with frustration or elation about aspects of the game there seems to be a little group (possibly cult) of members who see it as their duty to shut down any criticism of the product (yes it is a product after all) or those who made it.

If people want to write about a bug or a problem or comment on their frustration with CA or SEGA let them do it! Provide a counter argument if you wish but why do you see the need to complain about them or deride them for expressing themselves.

I can tell after reading the first post of a thread whether it is for or against the game so if the defenders of CA/SEGA hate to see any criticism why do you continue to read negative threads? Why do you have such a low tolerance for opinions other than your own?

If people want to praise or bag this game let them do it without criticising their right to do so!
The way some people have been behaving I'm suprised I haven't seen a "leave Brittany alone" video on youtube just replacing Brittany with CA or Sega!

You're free to voice your hatred of the game. We're free to tell you to shut up about it.

I don't hate the game!

1st cult member identified!:dizzy2:

This forum is for people who are fans of the Total War series and respect CA for their work.

Flaming the game is useless and serves no more purpose than to dishearten CA and piss off supporters. There have been many constructive criticism threads that have been well received.

This thread makes me lol. But there isn't a cult here that feverishly defends CA and their work, just some people who prefer to look at the glass half full and not half empty

It's a forum for fans of Total War who have the right to voice their like or dislike about the game, and i don't think people should be allowed to flame that person for voicing their dislike. Example:

I say: I find it ridiculous that the game shipped with such horrendous bugs as soldiers turning to face the wrong way mid-battle, or entire units not being able to engage in combat because 1 soldier is stuck trying to climb over a fence. These kinds of bugs should never have made it through testing, and make me wonder if the game was even tested at all.

That's a pretty harsh criticism, but a true one and a constructive one. You can do two things. You can build on it or start an argument.

An appropriate response might be: Yes it's true that this game should never have shipped with such horrible bugs, but we have to remember that CA have deadlines to meet and they were forced to rush the game forward before it was entirely polished. However, I'm sure these bugs will be fixed in the future.

You can then build on that even more by suggesting ways to fix whatever bug is being complained about.

Here is an example of an in-appropriate response that will turn the thread into a flame fest which will eventually be locked:

So? Nobody forced you to buy the game, sell it on eBay and stfu.

I would imagine, due to the nature of Total War games, that all members of this forum (not others, this one in particular because it is the most mature and pleasant of all TW forums, even moreso than the official ones) are adults over the age of 20, or if younger then are very intelligent and advanced for their age, so it's quite sickening (perhaps too strong a word) to see some of the things that are said in threads that are complaining about bugs.

Nobody should be free here to voice their hatred of the game, because it can lead nowhere except to arguments, locks or bans, and nobody should be free to tell anybody to shut up about anything, because two wrongs aren't making a right, they're making even more trouble.

There is nothing in the rules to state that somebody who has purchased this game cannot come in here and complain about a list of bugs as long as Andre the Giants arm, as long as it is done in the proper way and isn't likely to create a thick atmosphere and lead to arguments. It's perfectly fine to complain, we bought a product of questionable quality, it is our right to complain.

There are rules AGAINST telling somebody to shut up about it, however. Telling somebody to shut up about it, deal with it, live with it or other such comments are rude and offensive and likely to stir up trouble, which is the definition of trolling, which is against the rules on any respectable forum on the internet.

I'm 20 years old and i'll bet most of you here are twice my age, so it's astounding that somebody as young as me has to say this in the manner of a teacher chastising a naughty schoolchild.

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Originally Posted by lenin96

This forum is for people who are fans of the Total War series and respect CA for their work.

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Yes comrade, I am also a fan of the TW series and I respect CA for their work.

I also respect the members of this forum and their right to express their opinion good or bad without being shouted down by intolerant people who defend CA like some kind of religion.

I'm not saying we should agree with negative comments just that people shouldn't be attacked for sharing them.

There's a difference between valid criticism and some of the complaints that get posted. I think you're the one who should dig up evidence of your claim that TW forumites shut down all criticism since you're making the charge. As of yet, you haven't and just look like some sort of troll.

Most of the threads here are critical and justified, just look:
-The Switzerland Thread
-The (Tons) of Bug Threads
-The Bad AI Threads

Heck, even this thread isn't being shot down yet.

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Originally Posted by lenin96

This forum is for people who are fans of the Total War series and respect CA for their work.

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I don't know if respecting CA is necessarily a requirement of being a TW fan. I mean I really can't say I respect CA. As it is a consumer/supplier relationship I really don't feal respect is a necessary qualifier for enjoying their product. I mean I did pay for Rome, M2TW and ETW.

I respect CA no more than I respect Acura, and they made a fine automobile I drive.

I do think some of the critics take an approach that's a bit over the top, but I usually find fans in those threads making some very condescending statements.

I have been told off by numerous mods/senior members (ooo senior) in private messages or in threads here to show respect to CA Lusted or other members, looking through my posts i see no reason for it in the meantime people have been calling me all sorts of crap. As the OP said it is a small club but also an ever dwindling club I mean all the serious mods apart from EB are at TWC now (and the Org is lot smaller than it was for some unknown reason), the people left here: enjoy swimming in a waterhole that is rapidly drying out in the sun. I am out of here. Thank you OP for putting it into perspective and goodbye.

https://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=atpg.jpg

CA deserves most of the flack they get, ETW is an unfinished or broken product and should not have been released, I personally feel that CA has taken my money in bad faith and I want them to make a general apology for the state of the game. I feel that this is justified by the fact that they did not tell us about seeminbgly obvious broken mechanics within the game, such as naval invasions.

People who defend CA on points like these are not helpfull, the idea is to be a fan of a game not a games company, if CA release bad product they should be had up about it, not defended.

Gosh this is hilarious.... Every single day I log on here because I enjoy the game (what I can play of it -- however being a reasonably intelligent adult I expected rather less than I got when I bought it) & would like to continue my short-lived tradition of interacting with like-minded fellows to discuss & discover more about an experience I enjoy.

Every single day I am presented with sweeping statements about how it's shattered beyond repair, isn't any fun at all, doesn't work in the slightest, doesn't even turn on, isn't playable in any instance, iteration or form. Every single day. All expressed in the most petulant, cringeworthy, narcissistic tone imaginable, like listening to the complaints of a severely autistic twelve year old whose social worker has popped out for the day. What's best are the comments of those who haven't even played the Goddamn game, chipping in with their tuppeny-penn'worth of bile-flecked "wisdom".

But I've lost a whole month of my life to this game. I've played up to 1792 with Prussia, to 1739 with Russia (lost) & even my bloody girlfriend has started a Swedish campaign & played until 1725. I've played for hours online & been thrashed repeatedly. I've constructed grand armies, raized capitals, ground Poland into the dirt on three separate occasions. Yes, the AI doesn't invade via the water. So I played a landlocked faction. Yes, it can be a bit wooly in its decisions as to how to wage war; so I pretend I am a genuine 18th century commander & act (as in real life) like major engagements are rare & a policy of careful manouevre is key to entice enemy armies away from their jealously guarded storage depots & magazines.

& before anyone starts, I care little for any product per se -- what you own, children, does not define you, if you believe that anything does then you're pretty bloody sad -- my comments & contributions (& I assume those of others doing exactly what the OP is moaning about) are merely trying to add some balance & contribute constructively to a community I (used to) enjoy being a small part of, that I am finding a chore to use simply because some members seem to think that their particular grievances allow them to ignore any kind of etiquette or societal constraint.

I know it's not as bad here as some other forums (cough shogun.yuku cough; cough twcenter.l33t.speakcough-cough) but I'm sure some other guys here are as utterly sick as I am of listening to people whine bitch & moan about either the same things which four thousand other people have already said or (& I'm beginning to get suss about this) a veiled tirade thinly disguising their own ineptitude setting up a PC or (& I'm getting even more suss about this) their unfortunate choices in owning incompatible hardware for this particular game, all delivered in the aforementioned spoiled child voice that is just so endearing.


{breathes deeply, counts to ten}


There.

Now, what was this thread about again?

I am a fan of CA because of the games they have released.

You have your viewpoint, others have theirs.

Mine is that the game is finished, and will be improved to how it should be at 100% in time.

A book I read gave a good point about this, it doesnt directly relate, but I think it still applies.

One group of people dream of the impossible, then try to find a way to make it happen, while others think of what they can actually do, then try to make it pretty. Put them together, and you get a better product.

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Originally Posted by Konig Prasatko

I have been watching the threads on this forum for many years and more so with the release of ETW.
As we all know the game shipped with considerable problems that hopefully will be fixed in the coming months.

What I find disturbing is that as people have expressed themselves either with frustration or elation about aspects of the game there seems to be a little group (possibly cult) of members who see it as their duty to shut down any criticism of the product (yes it is a product after all) or those who made it.

If people want to write about a bug or a problem or comment on their frustration with CA or SEGA let them do it! Provide a counter argument if you wish but why do you see the need to complain about them or deride them for expressing themselves.

I can tell after reading the first post of a thread whether it is for or against the game so if the defenders of CA/SEGA hate to see any criticism why do you continue to read negative threads? Why do you have such a low tolerance for opinions other than your own?

If people want to praise or bag this game let them do it without criticising their right to do so!
The way some people have been behaving I'm suprised I haven't seen a "leave Brittany alone" video on youtube just replacing Brittany with CA or Sega!

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Well, this is a fansite after all, so it shouldn't be a surprise that members disagree with people who don't like the game or complain about bugs.

However, that doesn't mean you are not allowed to voice your opinion if you are not satisfied with the product. In fact, if you encounter a bug or a balance issue or whatnot, it's probably a very good idea to post about it on the Org or one of the other fansites. CA does read our forums, as they do read the official .com fora and the fora over at the TWC and if the complaint is justified, they tend to adress it in a patch.

I agree with you that "fanboyism" is as bad as constantly posting on a fansite about how much one dislikes the game. In fact, seeing the problems and mentioning them will make the game or at least future installments better. Criticism is a good thing.

As long as it stays constructive and civilised, the Org does tolerate criticism.

If you feel that a particular thread got closed without a clear or proper justification, then you are always free to pm one of the local moderators about it. Staff members are more than happy to get some feedback from the membership and are willing to review a decision if there are good reasons to do so. You can also pm the Forum Administrator about it, if you can't come to an agreement with the local moderator team.

If the pm exchange doesn't satisfy you or you have a feeling that the problem is not just one thread but more a general problem, then by all means, feel free to open a thread in the Watchtower to discuss the issue.

Welcome at the Org, btw ~:wave:

@Turbosatan: Spot on assessment. The game has a large number of serious bugs, but that doesnt mean that i want to read a bunch of self-righteous tantrum throwing in every thread.

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Originally Posted by Konig Prasatko

If people want to praise or bag this game let them do it without criticising their right to do so!

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Originally Posted by Dayve

It's a forum for fans of Total War who have the right to voice their like or dislike about the game

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Originally Posted by Konig Prasatko

I also respect the members of this forum and their right to express their opinion good or bad without being shouted down by intolerant people who defend CA like some kind of religion.

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Which rights are these exactly?

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Originally Posted by Dayve

That's a pretty harsh criticism, but a true one.

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Personally it's comments like that I find annoying, people are perfectly free to express their disappointment or annoyance, but it doesn't make your opinion fact.

Being a fan doesn't stop you from getting disappointed in a game.

I love this series, I have been playing it for years, not even on and off, but all the time. I practically always have a campaign going in one of the games, and though I play other games I play total war several times a week.

Despite that, I have strong critisism about ETW, and M2, and RTW. I have strong critisism because these games are the best battle simulators available to an old warhammer player (or anyone else who likes wargames where tactics matter and not the number of tanks), and I want them to keep being bloody good! The point is, we rant because we love the game and we hate to see it drop in quality. Sometimes it may go too far and out of line, that I won't argue with or defend in the slightest.

How one can argue that reading critisism decreases their gaming or forum experience is frankly beyond me. Don't you come to a discussion board to talk to other people?

Discussing the shortcomings of a game is just as much a discussion among fans as praising it is. Or are you really saying fans don't dislike the bugs or shoddy AI?

Being condescending isn't exactly endearing either.

I must say that I am utterly sorry if the "...I don´t like to play the game" thread I started did offend people on here. That was not my intention.
I just felt I had to vent my frustration with the new game as I am a longtime fan of TW games and Medieval I + II and Rome are the best games I have played and I was not expecting ETW to turn into something "unplayable".

I did not mean to cause any harm or bad feelings.

I do think, though, that since I have a machine that should (in theory) be perfectly able to handle the game at max. settings and since I have followed all the usual advice and precautions (clear installetion, driver updates etc.) I am in a position where I can rightfully blame the multitude of CTDs etc I am experiencing in gameplay on the game and not on myself or the shortcomings of the technical equipement I am using.

Furthermore I am not expecting to receive a game without faults. That is, I am not too picky and what I would call "minor shortcomings" (soldiers facing the wrong direction etc) would not tempt me to rave about the game on here.
I am very picky, though, when in 1 out of 2 campaign plays I start a CTD crashes the campaign.

One thing I would like to add: I enjoyed reading this forum for years (and I still do) and I always found valuable help and advice on here. For that I am very grateful.

Since I know that there are a lot of experts on here, maybe you could answer one more question from my side. Since I am not an expert, I came to the following conclusion: As I never experience any CTDs when in battle mode (no matter what settings) but all the CTDs happen in campaign mode (in 9 out of 10 cases when it´s the ai´s turn) I suspect that the problem is not graphic card/ driver related, since there isn´t too much going on graphic wise in compaign mode, right? Or wrong?

Apologising when no apology is needed is truly honorable, mmk :bow:

I'm not an expert either, but my non educated guess would be that the CTD's you're experiencing are not graphic card related.

Did you already post about this in the Apothecary (our tech issues subforum)?

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Originally Posted by Andres

Did you already post about this in the Apothecary (our tech issues subforum)?

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I added some of my observations to the "Post Your ETW Bugs Here!" thread, if that is what you are referring to, Andres.

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

CA deserves most of the flack they get, ETW is an unfinished or broken product and should not have been released, I personally feel that CA has taken my money in bad faith and I want them to make a general apology for the state of the game. I feel that this is justified by the fact that they did not tell us about seeminbgly obvious broken mechanics within the game, such as naval invasions.

People who defend CA on points like these are not helpfull, the idea is to be a fan of a game not a games company, if CA release bad product they should be had up about it, not defended.

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There is a difference between constructive criticism (good/needed), and CA bashing (wrong/unjustified). What I am quoting above is CA bashing. If you bash CA and give such unhelpful criticisms then this is not the right forum for you, this is a fansite. If you want to bash CA then you are ruining the community here. Be thankful that CA makes these games, if you don't like CA's games then why are you here? So you could rant and bash CA? And don't say that you want to tell CA that the game is unfinished or "broken" or "uncomplete" or any other crap because it's not helpful or constructive.

The only comment I would make is 'whats the point?'. I see these rant threads associated with just about every game I play e.g. WAR, WFRP, TW etc. Does anyone who can do anything ever take any notice?

I just feel its a waste of effort, I still do it but largely as a futile gesture to placate my own dissapointment, but it really doesn't achieve much unless by happy chance you discover your wrong the game actually does work, if you play it right.:laugh4:

Oh! and I agree Lenin96 (above) Constructive Criticism should not cause offence, mindless ranting merely makes the poster look like an idiot.

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Originally Posted by mmk

I added some of my observations to the "Post Your ETW Bugs Here!" thread, if that is what you are referring to, Andres.

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No, I was talking about the Apothecary.

But if it's really a bug, then there's probably not much they can help you with over there.

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Originally Posted by Andres

No, I was talking about the Apothecary.

But if it's really a bug, then there's probably not much they can help you with over there.

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Oh, thank you very much!

Yeah, after reading through the topics, it seems that it is the game indeed. *Sigh*

Didz is right -assuming one CAN play the game (i've had a couple of campaigns that i've had to abort due to recurring CTDs & crashes), there is still enough to enjoy. That, I suspect is what keeps people on this forum -as well as the desire to check on whether a patch has been released yet.

If the game were truly un-playable or utterly boring, then people really would just drop it and bugger off (maybe after a little troll spree ok...). However, in my opinion there's enough here to keep me occupied, but unfortunately it's bugged and not up the pre-release expectations that CA fed.

Now, clearly, every developer and publisher big up their product -and maybe with too much artistic license. But also, fans lap it up and get carried away with their expectations. That same expectation and excitment is what is (rather cynicaly) exploited by such marketing tricks as "premium" products -like the Special forces edition.

The juxtaposition of run of the mill release day disapointment, a product rife with bugs (arguably expectable) and a new (IMO rather exploitative) marketing and release strategy (steam, special forces...) is what has caused dissatisfaction.

To expect such things as an apology from CA (before they fix the problems!) is I'm afraid deluded. In all honesty, all I want to know is that the game will be fixed and improved by the promised patches and extra content (I'm not sure I'd pay money for such content yet though, not at this rate anyway!).

That CA are now keeping us informed of progress through their mouth-piece mr Lusted (who I understand was a celebrated modder -poor guy to be on the other end of the stick now!) is encouraging and to be honest, I'm hard pushed to see what else they could feasibly do. I have sincere hope that CA have by now made their mistakes and that we've been through the nadir and things are going to get better.

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Originally Posted by lenin96

There is a difference between constructive criticism (good/needed), and CA bashing (wrong/unjustified). What I am quoting above is CA bashing. If you bash CA and give such unhelpful criticisms then this is not the right forum for you, this is a fansite. If you want to bash CA then you are ruining the community here. Be thankful that CA makes these games, if you don't like CA's games then why are you here? So you could rant and bash CA? And don't say that you want to tell CA that the game is unfinished or "broken" or "uncomplete" or any other crap because it's not helpful or constructive.

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Well, everyman to his own, but I feel that constant CTD dues to ememry leak and the lack of naval invasions to be fairly major mechanism breaks within the game.
You seem to show a rather poor ability to read posts properly, where did I say I do not like CA's games? I have been around here longer than one whom simply wished to bash a game developer,:inquisitive:

It has been interesting reading the responses to my OP. I think it is true that this is a fan forum. I always thought it was for fans of the TW series not neccesarily the coy that developed it.

I understand people showing respect for CA and what they have produced over the years and I share this respect. I think there is a distinction however between being a fan and a fanatic and my comments in the OP were addressed to what I beleive are a small group of fanatics who cannot tolerate any criticisim of CA or ETW. They show their intolerance by attacking the member expressing their opinion and usually urge them to go away, return the game, stop playing ETW etc all pretty childish stuff. I wonder why they cannot simply stop reading negative posts and just enjoy the other threads on this forum.

From what I have read CA are doing a good job of putting their position forward about the problems encountered with ETW. They themselves don't seem to have taken on the attitude of some of their fans and seem quite reasonable about fixing the faults.

So I think the point has been made. Most members are mature and objective. I don't expect the minority to change but it would be nice if we all played the ball and not the man!

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

You seem to show a rather poor ability to read posts properly, where did I say I do not like CA's games? I have been around here longer than one whom simply wished to bash a game developer,:inquisitive:

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I might have gone over the top, but most of what I said was not directed at you but the general people who complain.