Free Speech - Some people just don't like it

[Konig Prasatko]

I have been watching the threads on this forum for many years and more so with the release of ETW.
As we all know the game shipped with considerable problems that hopefully will be fixed in the coming months.

What I find disturbing is that as people have expressed themselves either with frustration or elation about aspects of the game there seems to be a little group (possibly cult) of members who see it as their duty to shut down any criticism of the product (yes it is a product after all) or those who made it.

If people want to write about a bug or a problem or comment on their frustration with CA or SEGA let them do it! Provide a counter argument if you wish but why do you see the need to complain about them or deride them for expressing themselves.

I can tell after reading the first post of a thread whether it is for or against the game so if the defenders of CA/SEGA hate to see any criticism why do you continue to read negative threads? Why do you have such a low tolerance for opinions other than your own?

If people want to praise or bag this game let them do it without criticising their right to do so!
The way some people have been behaving I'm suprised I haven't seen a "leave Brittany alone" video on youtube just replacing Brittany with CA or Sega!

[SpiritFox]

You're free to voice your hatred of the game. We're free to tell you to shut up about it.

[Konig Prasatko]

I don't hate the game!

1st cult member identified!

[lenin96]

This forum is for people who are fans of the Total War series and respect CA for their work.

[A Very Super Market]

Flaming the game is useless and serves no more purpose than to dishearten CA and piss off supporters. There have been many constructive criticism threads that have been well received.

[Dayve]

It's a forum for fans of Total War who have the right to voice their like or dislike about the game, and i don't think people should be allowed to flame that person for voicing their dislike. Example:

I say: I find it ridiculous that the game shipped with such horrendous bugs as soldiers turning to face the wrong way mid-battle, or entire units not being able to engage in combat because 1 soldier is stuck trying to climb over a fence. These kinds of bugs should never have made it through testing, and make me wonder if the game was even tested at all.

That's a pretty harsh criticism, but a true one and a constructive one. You can do two things. You can build on it or start an argument.

An appropriate response might be: Yes it's true that this game should never have shipped with such horrible bugs, but we have to remember that CA have deadlines to meet and they were forced to rush the game forward before it was entirely polished. However, I'm sure these bugs will be fixed in the future.

You can then build on that even more by suggesting ways to fix whatever bug is being complained about.

Here is an example of an in-appropriate response that will turn the thread into a flame fest which will eventually be locked:

So? Nobody forced you to buy the game, sell it on eBay and stfu.

I would imagine, due to the nature of Total War games, that all members of this forum (not others, this one in particular because it is the most mature and pleasant of all TW forums, even moreso than the official ones) are adults over the age of 20, or if younger then are very intelligent and advanced for their age, so it's quite sickening (perhaps too strong a word) to see some of the things that are said in threads that are complaining about bugs.

Nobody should be free here to voice their hatred of the game, because it can lead nowhere except to arguments, locks or bans, and nobody should be free to tell anybody to shut up about anything, because two wrongs aren't making a right, they're making even more trouble.

There is nothing in the rules to state that somebody who has purchased this game cannot come in here and complain about a list of bugs as long as Andre the Giants arm, as long as it is done in the proper way and isn't likely to create a thick atmosphere and lead to arguments. It's perfectly fine to complain, we bought a product of questionable quality, it is our right to complain.

There are rules AGAINST telling somebody to shut up about it, however. Telling somebody to shut up about it, deal with it, live with it or other such comments are rude and offensive and likely to stir up trouble, which is the definition of trolling, which is against the rules on any respectable forum on the internet.

I'm 20 years old and i'll bet most of you here are twice my age, so it's astounding that somebody as young as me has to say this in the manner of a teacher chastising a naughty schoolchild.

[Veho Nex]

This thread makes me lol. But there isn't a cult here that feverishly defends CA and their work, just some people who prefer to look at the glass half full and not half empty

[Konig Prasatko]

This forum is for people who are fans of the Total War series and respect CA for their work.

Yes comrade, I am also a fan of the TW series and I respect CA for their work.

I also respect the members of this forum and their right to express their opinion good or bad without being shouted down by intolerant people who defend CA like some kind of religion.

I'm not saying we should agree with negative comments just that people shouldn't be attacked for sharing them.

[antisocialmunky]

There's a difference between valid criticism and some of the complaints that get posted. I think you're the one who should dig up evidence of your claim that TW forumites shut down all criticism since you're making the charge. As of yet, you haven't and just look like some sort of troll.

Most of the threads here are critical and justified, just look:
-The Switzerland Thread
-The (Tons) of Bug Threads
-The Bad AI Threads

Heck, even this thread isn't being shot down yet.

[nafod]

This forum is for people who are fans of the Total War series and respect CA for their work.

I don't know if respecting CA is necessarily a requirement of being a TW fan. I mean I really can't say I respect CA. As it is a consumer/supplier relationship I really don't feal respect is a necessary qualifier for enjoying their product. I mean I did pay for Rome, M2TW and ETW.

I respect CA no more than I respect Acura, and they made a fine automobile I drive.

I do think some of the critics take an approach that's a bit over the top, but I usually find fans in those threads making some very condescending statements.

[Smellycat]

I have been told off by numerous mods/senior members (ooo senior) in private messages or in threads here to show respect to CA Lusted or other members, looking through my posts i see no reason for it in the meantime people have been calling me all sorts of crap. As the OP said it is a small club but also an ever dwindling club I mean all the serious mods apart from EB are at TWC now (and the Org is lot smaller than it was for some unknown reason), the people left here: enjoy swimming in a waterhole that is rapidly drying out in the sun. I am out of here. Thank you OP for putting it into perspective and goodbye.

[Andres]

I have been watching the threads on this forum for many years and more so with the release of ETW.
As we all know the game shipped with considerable problems that hopefully will be fixed in the coming months.

What I find disturbing is that as people have expressed themselves either with frustration or elation about aspects of the game there seems to be a little group (possibly cult) of members who see it as their duty to shut down any criticism of the product (yes it is a product after all) or those who made it.

If people want to write about a bug or a problem or comment on their frustration with CA or SEGA let them do it! Provide a counter argument if you wish but why do you see the need to complain about them or deride them for expressing themselves.

I can tell after reading the first post of a thread whether it is for or against the game so if the defenders of CA/SEGA hate to see any criticism why do you continue to read negative threads? Why do you have such a low tolerance for opinions other than your own?

If people want to praise or bag this game let them do it without criticising their right to do so!
The way some people have been behaving I'm suprised I haven't seen a "leave Brittany alone" video on youtube just replacing Brittany with CA or Sega!

Well, this is a fansite after all, so it shouldn't be a surprise that members disagree with people who don't like the game or complain about bugs.

However, that doesn't mean you are not allowed to voice your opinion if you are not satisfied with the product. In fact, if you encounter a bug or a balance issue or whatnot, it's probably a very good idea to post about it on the Org or one of the other fansites. CA does read our forums, as they do read the official .com fora and the fora over at the TWC and if the complaint is justified, they tend to adress it in a patch.

I agree with you that "fanboyism" is as bad as constantly posting on a fansite about how much one dislikes the game. In fact, seeing the problems and mentioning them will make the game or at least future installments better. Criticism is a good thing.

As long as it stays constructive and civilised, the Org does tolerate criticism.

If you feel that a particular thread got closed without a clear or proper justification, then you are always free to pm one of the local moderators about it. Staff members are more than happy to get some feedback from the membership and are willing to review a decision if there are good reasons to do so. You can also pm the Forum Administrator about it, if you can't come to an agreement with the local moderator team.

If the pm exchange doesn't satisfy you or you have a feeling that the problem is not just one thread but more a general problem, then by all means, feel free to open a thread in the Watchtower to discuss the issue.

Welcome at the Org, btw

[Daveybaby]

@Turbosatan: Spot on assessment. The game has a large number of serious bugs, but that doesnt mean that i want to read a bunch of self-righteous tantrum throwing in every thread.

[Dead Guy]

Being a fan doesn't stop you from getting disappointed in a game.

I love this series, I have been playing it for years, not even on and off, but all the time. I practically always have a campaign going in one of the games, and though I play other games I play total war several times a week.

Despite that, I have strong critisism about ETW, and M2, and RTW. I have strong critisism because these games are the best battle simulators available to an old warhammer player (or anyone else who likes wargames where tactics matter and not the number of tanks), and I want them to keep being bloody good! The point is, we rant because we love the game and we hate to see it drop in quality. Sometimes it may go too far and out of line, that I won't argue with or defend in the slightest.

How one can argue that reading critisism decreases their gaming or forum experience is frankly beyond me. Don't you come to a discussion board to talk to other people?

Discussing the shortcomings of a game is just as much a discussion among fans as praising it is. Or are you really saying fans don't dislike the bugs or shoddy AI?

Being condescending isn't exactly endearing either.

[mmk]

I must say that I am utterly sorry if the "...I don´t like to play the game" thread I started did offend people on here. That was not my intention.
I just felt I had to vent my frustration with the new game as I am a longtime fan of TW games and Medieval I + II and Rome are the best games I have played and I was not expecting ETW to turn into something "unplayable".

I did not mean to cause any harm or bad feelings.

I do think, though, that since I have a machine that should (in theory) be perfectly able to handle the game at max. settings and since I have followed all the usual advice and precautions (clear installetion, driver updates etc.) I am in a position where I can rightfully blame the multitude of CTDs etc I am experiencing in gameplay on the game and not on myself or the shortcomings of the technical equipement I am using.

Furthermore I am not expecting to receive a game without faults. That is, I am not too picky and what I would call "minor shortcomings" (soldiers facing the wrong direction etc) would not tempt me to rave about the game on here.
I am very picky, though, when in 1 out of 2 campaign plays I start a CTD crashes the campaign.

One thing I would like to add: I enjoyed reading this forum for years (and I still do) and I always found valuable help and advice on here. For that I am very grateful.

Since I know that there are a lot of experts on here, maybe you could answer one more question from my side. Since I am not an expert, I came to the following conclusion: As I never experience any CTDs when in battle mode (no matter what settings) but all the CTDs happen in campaign mode (in 9 out of 10 cases when it´s the ai´s turn) I suspect that the problem is not graphic card/ driver related, since there isn´t too much going on graphic wise in compaign mode, right? Or wrong?

[Andres]

Apologising when no apology is needed is truly honorable, mmk

I'm not an expert either, but my non educated guess would be that the CTD's you're experiencing are not graphic card related.

Did you already post about this in the Apothecary (our tech issues subforum)?

[Daveybaby]

If people want to praise or bag this game let them do it without criticising their right to do so!

It's a forum for fans of Total War who have the right to voice their like or dislike about the game

I also respect the members of this forum and their right to express their opinion good or bad without being shouted down by intolerant people who defend CA like some kind of religion.

Which rights are these exactly?

[Tsavong]

What I find disturbing is that as people have expressed themselves either with frustration or elation about aspects of the game there seems to be a little group (possibly cult) of members who see it as their duty to shut down any criticism of the product (yes it is a product after all) or those who made it.

What I find annoying is people who derail topics discussing the game to go on a self serving rant about how they don't like the game and how CA infringed there rights etc. Wall they are in titled to say that I just wish they would not go around spamming threads about other things when there are many threads where they can rant away.

Free Speech - Some people just don't like it

Well apparently you are one of the 'cult' anti free speech as you don't seem to want people to put a counter argument to people complaining.

Perhaps you should start a back room topic about Free Speech.

[Didz]

One has to be very careful anyway when talking about 'Free Speech'. In practice, no society or community can afford to allow its members to say literally anything they like. Thats why we have laws for 'slander' and 'libel', and why with the new invented political excuse of 'Threat of Terrorism' we are no longer allowed to talk freely about a lot of things our governments don't like us discussing.

There is no doubt that some of the posts on ETW have crossed the line beyond the bounds of what is socially acceptable under the banner of 'Free Speech', and unfortunately people in general who try to play the 'Free Speech' card are often arguing for the right to immunity from social obligation.

There is no doubt that some people are having problems playing this game, what would be more constructive is to try and work out why. Or more to the point 'Why them and not us'.

[Turbosatan]

There is no doubt that some people are having problems playing this game, what would be more constructive is to try and work out why. Or more to the point 'Why them and not us'.

Wise words in general there Didz, but that last paragaph is the clincher for me.

Is it some built-in compatibility issue with the game? Motherboard drivers? The colour of the case? There's so many variables when it comes to PCs (both soft- & hardware). Then there's the setup of the rig in question...

It boggles my mind that the thing works on anything.

[Fisherking]

Wise words in general there Didz, but that last paragaph is the clincher for me.

Is it some built-in compatibility issue with the game? Motherboard drivers? The colour of the case? There's so many variables when it comes to PCs (both soft- & hardware). Then there's the setup of the rig in question...

It boggles my mind that the thing works on anything.

LOL!

Had Apple licensed their OS we wouldn’t have this problem!

But we are stuck with the IBM and Microsoft legacy.

It was apparent even in the days of DOS that running a new game was always going to be a headache.

Every one was a new exercise in patience as you tried to revamp the config.sys to get it to run. Now we can’t even do that.

Most problems are system problems. But publishers have to address them and it does take time.

[Beskar]

Had Apple licensed their OS we wouldn’t have this problem!

We would. Apple OS is only so stable because Apple themselves produce the machines for it to run on and there is no variation at all between the computers hardly. The fact is, if Apple OS licensed it, their work load would instantly skyrocket and they would actually lose business as people would realise that is the whole "stability" argument is a bad one.

Mac advertise a lot of things, to say they are superior to Windows, it is actually amusing. In the adverts "We don't get many viruses, it is because we are better." the answer isn't that, the real answer is "We don't get many viruses as less than 4% of Computer users actually use a Mac OS." If you was writing a virus, to scam people, would you target 96% of the population or 4%? It is common sense.

As a note, I used to be a Mac user, so I know from experience they are extremely overrated. I used to love the old adverts where they said their processers were 5 times superior to Intel's processor, often comparing the two for years upon years in their adverts, the they launched the Intel Mac saying "They are better than ever."

[Nebuchadnezzar]

One has to be very careful anyway when talking about 'Free Speech'. In practice, no society or community can afford to allow its members to say literally anything they like. Thats why we have laws for 'slander' and 'libel', and why with the new invented political excuse of 'Threat of Terrorism' we are no longer allowed to talk freely about a lot of things our governments don't like us discussing.

There is no doubt that some of the posts on ETW have crossed the line beyond the bounds of what is socially acceptable under the banner of 'Free Speech', and unfortunately people in general who try to play the 'Free Speech' card are often arguing for the right to immunity from social obligation.

And yet companies continue to exercise their right of 'Free Speech' to use trickery, lies and deception to sell their products! Oh yes, I know that this is illegal in some countries but unfortunately most people don't have a few 100k lying about to bring it to court to enforce it.

It may also be socially acceptable for manufacurers (in particular software/games) to sell defective products and consumers to accept them but nevertheless it is both irresponsible & unscrupulous. Just which sewer did their social obligations disappear to mmm?

Anyone??

[Turbosatan]

And yet companies continue to exercise their right of 'Free Speech' to use trickery, lies and deception to sell their products! Oh yes, I know that this is illegal in some countries but unfortunately most people don't have a few 100k lying about to bring it to court to enforce it.

It may also be socially acceptable for manufacurers (in particular software/games) to sell defective products and consumers to accept them but nevertheless it is both irresponsible & unscrupulous. Just which sewer did their social obligations disappear to mmm?

Anyone??

I give you the godlike Bill Hicks:

"If anyone here is in advertising or marketing... Kill yourselves.

Seriously though, if you are, do. THere is no rationalisation for what you do & you are Satan's little helpers. Okay? Kill yourselves. Seriously. You are the ruiners of all things good."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

A touch overblown when applying Bill to videogames -- after all, marketing & advertising helps destroy the environment, people's lives, their mental health, their self-esteem, damage gender/race relations, increases tension within communities, & generally pollutes the world with slick noisome waste that clogs up your brain & drains you of your humanity & compassion -- but I think the general thrust of the man's argument is what we should be taking away here.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

For a number of years, not so long ago, I did desktop support for a very large media company which used a mix of Macs and PCs. The contention that the former are very stable, don't fail catastrophically, etc. is, in my experience, utterly without foundation.

Regards
VGB

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I give you the godlike Bill Hicks:

"If anyone here is in advertising or marketing... Kill yourselves.

Seriously though, if you are, do. THere is no rationalisation for what you do & you are Satan's little helpers. Okay? Kill yourselves. Seriously. You are the ruiners of all things good."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

A touch overblown when applying Bill to videogames -- after all, marketing & advertising helps destroy the environment, people's lives, their mental health, their self-esteem, damage gender/race relations, increases tension within communities, & generally pollutes the world with slick noisome waste that clogs up your brain & drains you of your humanity & compassion -- but I think the general thrust of the man's argument is what we should be taking away here.

lol...
In fact I am directly involved in marketing and know all too well how deceptive it can be. Many times encroaching legal boundaries (and god forbid sometimes even passing them) but I don't intend to kill myself, at least not yet.

My point being was that as individuals we are always reminded of our social and moral obligations yet buisinesses seem to escape it (or circumvent it).

[Didz]

And yet companies continue to exercise their right of 'Free Speech' to use trickery, lies and deception to sell their products! Oh yes, I know that this is illegal in some countries but unfortunately most people don't have a few 100k lying about to bring it to court to enforce it.

Very true....I'm still angry with Blizzard for the way it conned 3,000 European customers into paying for a collector edition which they knew to be faulty. That was a flagrant breach of European Trade Standards Legislation, but they got away with it, despite my best attempts to get them investigated and fined.

[Konig Prasatko]

What I find annoying is people who derail topics discussing the game to go on a self serving rant about how they don't like the game and how CA infringed there rights etc. Wall they are in titled to say that I just wish they would not go around spamming threads about other things when there are many threads where they can rant away.


Well apparently you are one of the 'cult' anti free speech as you don't seem to want people to put a counter argument to people complaining.

Perhaps you should start a back room topic about Free Speech.

Zerg, you have not understood what I though was clearly stated. I am not against people putting up a counter argument but rather I'm against flamming anyone who expresses their view positive or negative. There are general principals that govern a forum such as avoiding taking a thread off topic, swearing etc I'm sure the owners/moderators of this forum support the principal that people should be allowed an opinion and that nobody should be attacked for that opinion.

If you want to be padantic or absolute about free speech then to be free we can all swear, abuse, be racist or talk about molesting children. So in that respect their is no free speech in western societies or this forum.

Zerg most members appreciate and agree with my OP and if you object to the words free speech you can replace them with 'Forum principals' if that helps you grasp what I'm on about.