Roman Cavalary standard.

From various sources I've heard that the Draco (you know this Cloth Pipe with a metal Dragon head at the front) was "invented by the romans after a visit to egypt where there were amazed by Crocodiles. now many "barbarian" cavalary units have this standard aswell in EB, obviously preceeving the roman Expansion in Egypt this lets to conclude that the theory about the Crocodiles is incorrect and the romans copied this banner from "the Barbarians".

So who's right and if the Crocodile stuff is right, why do some cavalary units have "the draco"(I don'T doubt that they had i'm merely interested in the way they come up with it.

I am 90% sure that the Romans adopted the Draco from Barbarians (in the shirtless with trousers and long hair sense).

Infact, I believe it originally came from the Sarmatians, or Scythians, or some steppe people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravenic

Infact, I believe it originally came from the Sarmatians, or Scythians, or some steppe people.

---

I think that Goldsworthy mentioned they copied it from the steppe people, but I haven't got his book with me so I can't give you the reference. What sources did the crocodile theory come from?

I read somewhere the steppe peoples originally used it as a windsock so their archers had an easier time estimating how much they had to correct for winds...

Anyway, AFAIK the Romans didn't adopt it until a fair while after the EB period.

thank you for the replies, that fits best with my common sence too :D.

btw just some TV-documentaries.

Never- ever trust anything you see in a socalled TV-Documentary.

Trust about half of what you read in books, if several sources says the same (as a simple rule of thumb, real source criticism is something more ;-) ).

True knowledge is (still) to be found in book, not on TV or online. Eventually the net will have some more profound knowledge on it. There are a few spots of it already, stars shining bright in an utter darkness, but generally. Books is the place to look.

they were prominent in the crappy movie King Arthur...as seemingly Sarmatian stuff...but I wouldn't go so far as to say it could be accurate

I know TV is much less accurate than a good history book but tbh I'm not doing real research on roman military, there are enough people to who do to get rather quick access to it :P. However If I did, id would read books and get in contact with archaeologists as there are sufficient specialists on roman history in germany. ;)
To be perfectly blunt, it was a documentary about The Song of the Nibelungs which claimed that Siegfried is an allusion to Arminius who killed the Roman dragon,...

King Arthur, oh i musst have missed that bit, got to watch it again some time soon thx.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by delablake

they were prominent in the crappy movie King Arthur...as seemingly Sarmatian stuff...but I wouldn't go so far as to say it could be accurate

---

Well, by the timeframe of that movie the draco was pretty universally used by Roman horse. Plus several other "barbarian" groups too AFAIK.

One theory regarding the later popularity of St. George I've seen mentioned actually went that this was due to the peasants symbolically associating the dragon he slays in the story with the standard carried by all those armies who ravaged their farms and raped their women...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ca Putt

I know TV is much less accurate than a good history book but tbh I'm not doing real research on roman military, there are enough people to who do to get rather quick access to it :P. However If I did, id would read books and get in contact with archaeologists as there are sufficient specialists on roman history in germany. ;)
To be perfectly blunt, it was a documentary about The Song of the Nibelungs which claimed that Siegfried is an allusion to Arminius who killed the Roman dragon,...

King Arthur, oh i musst have missed that bit, got to watch it again some time soon thx.

---

I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable about Arminus and thus I was familiar with and have dismissed that theory. It is, I am sorry to say, utter rubbish. It has no basis at all in any sort of evidence that any serious historian will accept.

But yes, Germany has a great tradition in Roman history scholarship, and history scholarship in general. If you want easily digestible Roman military history though, you could read some Osprey, they do not can be read in an evening and gives more and more accurate info in general than an evening watching TV. Though HBO's Rome is good.

i too thought it was a bit silly, and they stated a lot of equally unbased Theories. come to think of it they totally neglected the old norse "original" saga. oh well, but it was fun to watch.

As i stated before, I don't make researches on roman military, i just prefer a Documentary or movie on this topic over repeats of Talk shows ;) and sometimes I, just got the urge to switch m brain to "off" and watch some TV^^ HBO Rome is a perfect example^^

The Draco was first introduced in the Roman Cavalry by Sarmatians during the reign of Mark Aurelius. The Emperor recruited Sarmatians after their defeat along German tribes during the Marcommanic Wars.

Cheers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reno Melitensis

The Draco was first introduced in the Roman Cavalry by Sarmatians during the reign of Mark Aurelius. The Emperor recruited Sarmatians after their defeat along German tribes during the Marcommanic Wars.

---

Pardon me for being sceptical, but is this definite or merely conjecture based on the fact that Marcus Aurelius was the first to introduce large contingents of nomad warriors in his armies?

As far as i'm concerned the romans adopted the Draco after contacts with Dacians. Draco is a word of dacian origins.