I'm a bit worried about France.

I'm 50 turns into my British Campaign and I'm a bit worried about the threat currently posed by France.

I decided for this campaign to limit myself to one trade post per trade theatre, rather than monopolize all of them and I don't know if that has caused the difference but France is looking pretty formidable as an opponent. It also had a couple of pretty lucky random DoW events recently that have allowed it to gain more territory in the new world.

Surprisingly, its also avoided being at war with the entire world, which is quite unusual. In fact, the only primary factions its at war with are the Dutch and the Austrians and neither of those factions are giving it much grief, nor are they allied.

France is also allied to Spain against the Dutch and the only other primary faction Spain is at war with are Portugal.

So, basically I am faced with a Terrifying/Spectacular faction (France) allied with another Terrifying/Spectacular faction (Spain) at war with one of my allies (The Dutch) and both equally interested in forging an empire in the new world.

On a more detailed level, I have concerns that at the moment France is ahead of me on the evolution and technology scale. A quick check of their prestige shows:

Category	Britain	France	Spain
Enlightenment	25	194	20
Ecomonic's	30	107	195
Naval	65	30	28
Army	102	76	60

As you can see both France and Spain are economic powerhouses, and France is the most enlightened faction in the game at this point. Likewise, in terms of the new world they are strong competition for control. France has almost as many territories as Britain and together France and Spain are the dominant force.

Territories	Europe	America's	India
Britain	2	10	-
France	2	9	-
Spain	5	8	-
Franco-Spanish Alliance	7	16	-

Technology wise France already has Naval Architecture advances and their naval base at Brest is a Drydock, so that means they can build 3rd rates and all I have are 5th Rates at the moment, though I could build 4th Rates in a crisis.

Likewise they have developed Four-Field Crop Rotation which means their provinces are developing faster than mine. They also have Division of Labour.

So, things are looking a bit awkward. A large French Army is massing in New England as I type and I think it is really only a matter of time before we go to war. In fact its inevitable, as France has already seized New England and Maine and I want them back.

I'm pretty sure that man-for-man my German mercenaries and Colonial Line Infantry are more than a match for the French (at least as long as they haven't got Fire-by-Rank) but at sea I could not stand up against French 3rd Rates and if the French fleet gains control of the channel then I'm pretty much done for.

So, I'm rushing research on Naval Architechure and hoping to get a Drydock at Portsmouth and a few 3rd rates before the French kick-off just not sure they are going to wait that long. This could actually be the first campaign I've lost legitimately.

Sounds like an excellent game Didz!! :2thumbsup:

What are your difficulty levels?

France always seems to stay out of wars when i don't play as them, then yesterday i started up a game as France and in 1708 i shit you not I'm at war with about 80% of the map. Every single American Indian faction, Britain, Westphalia, Wurttemburg, Hannover, Sweden, Savoy, Saxony, Austria, and ALL of them are active against me, including Austria. The Barbary states also overwhelm me with their huge navy, because i can't recruit much due to financial troubles. I'm not even going to continue the campaign, there's no point. When i play as someone else, i've seen France sit at war with all of its neighbours for 80 years and never fire a shot in anger, all of a sudden just because the human player is France they actively seek to utterly destroy it.

Anyway, i wouldn't worry about France if i were you. They may have amazing armies but when the battle starts they'll send their soldiers at you a single unit at a time, then when you rip it apart they'll send another, and another, etc.

Don't be afraid about France's enlightenment. They usually build lots of churches and these count also as enlightenment. You have a stronger army and navy and that is all that matters. If they declare war start raiding their trade lanes and you will starve them of money and gain a lot of gold.

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Originally Posted by Monsieur Alphonse

Don't be afraid about France's enlightenment. They usually build lots of churches and these count also as enlightenment. You have a stronger army and navy and that is all that matters. If they declare war start raiding their trade lanes and you will starve them of money and gain a lot of gold.

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Thats what I'm hoping, but I'm not prepared to go to war with France and Spain in the hope of finding victory, so at the minute I'm using my money to try and narrow the gap and improve the odds.

If I had the spare cash I would be feeding it to the Portuguese and Dutch to try and keep their attention focussed on Europe, but at the minute every spare penny is going on education and economic growth. A couple more years and I should have a drydock at Portsmouth and can start building a channel fleet, in the meantime every end-turn is a gamble.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

What are your difficulty levels?

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Pretty sure I'm on Hard/Hard with this campaign, not sure how you check once its started.

It's not like you need to worry about an invasion of GB or your caribean islands, so send everyone to your danger area -Canada and the 13 colonies.

How are your alliances? I've always treasured my Alliance with the Iroquoi and they've stuck by me. Make sure you give them millitary access to your provinces.

As the game begins, you should have enough troops from your European army to allow you launch a naval invasion of Quebec. As of then, you've got them on the back foot in NA.

The other threat to you in NA is the Cherokee. I've normally dispatched them before taking Quebec & Montreal in my games, so if they haven't already DoW'd on the 13 colonies, it may happen soon...

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by alh_p

It's not like you need to worry about an invasion of GB or your caribean islands, so send everyone to your danger area -Canada and the 13 colonies.

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They are already there. In fact my only army is currently in New York led by my only General (The 69 year old McDowell, hero of the Indian Wars.). I have nothing in Britain except a few militia units, and only two regiments of regular infantry. The 1st (Royal) Foot is all alone in Holland showing the flag and providing moral support to my Dutch Allies, and the 2nd (Queens) is in New York. Everything else is colonial, or mercenary.

No, the only thing that worries me in Europe is the possibility of losing control of The Channel, and having all my trade terminated. If that happens it will be almost instant bankruptcy and 'game over'.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

How are your alliances? I've always treasured my Alliance with the Iroquoi and they've stuck by me. Make sure you give them millitary access to your provinces.

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The Cherokee and Iroquios are gone. Neither of them would listen to reason and constantly raided my American colonies, in the end they overan Georgia and the Carolina's and so I had to send German mercenaries from Ruperts Land and raise Colonials in Jamaica to recover them, and finish the native threat off for good. Only the Huron remain a threat but having overun Ruperts Land they have been pretty docile since even though they refuse to make peace.

I don't have many Alliances and tend to be a bit wary of making them as in my experience your Allies just get you involved in 'dumb wars'. But I do have a little mutually supporting pact in the United Provinces, Hannover and Westphalia which has held solid without any problems for a while even though the Dutch are at war with France.

The Thirteen Colonies are still my protectorate of course, although there are only two left.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

As the game begins, you should have enough troops from your European army to allow you launch a naval invasion of Quebec. As of then, you've got them on the back foot in NA.

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That would only work if you didn't self-limit your troop transport to one unit per trade vessel. Building up a fleet of 16 trade vessels and not actually using them for trade is not really an option early in the game.

In fact, what I did was raise Colonial troops in Jamaica and hired German Mercenaries in Ruperts Land and then used the East Indiamen I was building locally to transport them to Georgia and drop them off one regiment at a time before the ships continued on their way to the Trade Theatres.

That gradually enabled me to build up a full army in North America, which was then supplemented with Native mercenaries once I had a decent foothold. But, as things stand I still don't have access to proper troop training buildings on the American continent. So, for example I have no way to recruit artillery and would have to find trade ships to transport it in of I need it.

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Wow! just had a nasty shock....ended my turn and suddenly the 'Bankruptcy' message popped up, and I thought the French fleet was out. But it turned out I had just forgotten to turn the tax on for England, and as London is the only city keeping my Empire solvent I'd just run out of cash.

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This is actually quite good fun, as I'm having to squeeze every once of benefit out of what little revenue I get each turn.

Oxford have just finished researching 'Naval Architecture' so I can now build Portsmouth Drydock next turn as long as I delay developing the port at Yorktown. At the same time all the Gentlemen at Oxford have just been sent to Cambridge now that they have completed their critical naval research, as Cambridge is researching 'Fire by Ranks' which I'm hoping will give my army an edge over the French.

Meanwhile, the French army in New England is gaining one new regiment every turn and will be at full strength in three more turns. I'm sure France isn't planning to leave it sitting around doing nothing after that. My current thinking is that I might abandon New York when the French attack and fall back to Maryland. There is a large colonial army in Maryland and it would be better to face the French together if we have to, thats assuming that the Colonial Army doesn't march to assist me in New York of course.

The only good news is that Austria just declared war on Spain. God knows why. They are already at war with France, Russia, Prussia, The Ottoman Empire and Poland, so perhaps they are just trying to collect a full set. However, they do have a tiny navy in the Adriatic, so Spain might detach a few ships to protect Naples.

Lol! (Next Turn) Austria declares war on Westphalia, which effectively means my little Northern Alliance (Britain, Hannover, United Provinces and Westphalia) are now at war with Austria. So, yes they are going for a full set. Though interestingly the only way they can reach Westphalia is through Bavaria, which is an ally but has refused to join the war. Anyway, the 1st Foot have marched to Cologne ready to help defend the Westphalian capital if necessary.

Cut the head off and destroy the faction. Build and load up 2-3 stacks, take Paris and Loraine, faction disappears, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Servius1234

Cut the head off and destroy the faction. Build and load up 2-3 stacks, take Paris and Loraine, faction disappears, problem solved.

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Very true, but I've never been interested in playing TW games that way. I'm still very much a wargamer by nature, and I still live in hope that CA or someone will produce a decent computer wargame before I die.

France has 2 regions in Europe. Build two 3/4 stacks and take em out.
Military access isn't hard to get.

In fact, 1 full stack taking out France (region) is enough already to then offer them peace for several of their American holdings.
Same story with Spain, just take out their main region and they'll happily sell you their Euro and/or American regions for a simple peace treaty. Regardless of unrest in those regions.

So yes, I'm very much with Servius and that's what I did as the Dutch when they declared war on me.

Well they haven't actually declared war on me yet, and to be honest I think they have left it too late now and missed their opportunity.

I have my drydock at Portsmouth and my channel fleet already has an Admiral and three 3rd Rates on the slips being built. Plus my troops now know how to 'Fire by Ranks' and I have explosive shells, so I think my army and navy can now hold their own.

More importantly the 'Tax Holiday' I had given all my provinces in order to encourage growth has done its job and most of them are now fully populated and the tax is being switched back on as the last village is created. So my revenue is beginning to rise and I'm able to afford to increase the size of my trade fleet, army and navy.

On top of that my protestant missionaries have been doing excellent work in the America's and the number of Catholic's in French held provinces has dropped to a minority or dissappeared altogether, and they don't seem too happy with French rule, as I notice that France has had to increase its garrisons significantly.

Add to the that a rather nice gesture by the Dutch who have parked their main fleet in the channel and are now raiding the French trade lane, and things are not looking as hopeful for the French.

However, I do like your idea, not least because all my best training facilities are in England and the channel is quite narrow. So, I can probably mass a decent army in the Netherlands far easier than I can in America and if I take Alsace_Lorraine and can trade it for New England I'll be more than happy to rinse and repeat until I get everything I want, and if Spain get bolchy I'll take FLanders and give it to the Dutch.

France under the AI is a paper tiger.

Now you want to take France and trade for a couple of spot of your choosing!

They won’t miss Alsace-Lorraine. They try to trade it away.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Now you want to take France and trade for a couple of spot of your choosing!

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Surely, if I take France the faction will simply cease to exist.

As long as Alsace is there, France will continue to exist. Taking the original capitol region does not destroy a nation, as long as it has at least one region in its home theater.

I wouldn't worry too much about the French army. If it is doing the same thing as my GB campaign, it is recruiting the Native American Auxillaries. Your troops should be able to wipe them out without problems.

Right, that's why I said you had to take Paris and Loraine (guess I should have said Alsace). Some factions have a single "home" territory. For France, France is the first and Alsace-Loraine is the second. For GB, England is the first, Scotland is the second (and Ireland may be a third, but I've never taken out GB before). Prussia has Brandenburg and East Prussia

Other factions (like UP) have only one home province.

I also prefer to do a little role-playing too in that I try not to do too much stuff that didn't happen in reality. Completely destroying France or Spain is something I try to avoid. As GB, I usually crush their economy by destroying their fleets and then blockading their ports. Then I hunt down their trading post fleets and take them over. I then dismantle their colonies, starting with the islands in the Carribean. With Spain, I usually stop there and leave them New Spain (since they've usually already lost Flordia to the Cherokee), but with France, I have to knock them out of North America to truely secure my colonial assets.

ok! didn't realise that. For some reason I got the impression based upon my campaigns in India that as soon as you took a faction home province it was destroyed.

Time to build an army in Europe then.

Yeah, I think anweRU said it best. You can't destroy a faction until all of the regions that faction holds in its home theatre are taken. So, for Spain, you have to take Spain, but also Gibraltar, Naples, Flanders, Sardinia, and Milan.

If that's not how it works in India, what you may be seeing is a revolution triggered by the populace's lack of loyalty and deep dissatisfaction with losing even a little territory. I tend to see a lot more rebel provinces show up in India, even while the original versions of Marathas and the Mughal are still around. Losing your traditional capital region (like France, Spain, or Englad) probably causes a significantly higher amount of dissatisfaction in your people than were you to lose an associated region like Sardinia, Alsace, or Ireland.

Go to France and Alsace-Lorraine, clear out their stacks and raze the whole country, but don't take the capitals. I did that with 3 stacks for 10 years on France and Spain simultaneously. Both were terrifying and spectacular at the start, at the end both were feeble and destitute, and some of their colonies rebelled. I made peace with them and gave them huge amounts of cash and tech to build back up, then I moved on to Poland-Lithuania and Austria. :2thumbsup:

I think it's true in ETW (though I don't think it worked like this in previous games) that if you besiege a city, when the required number of turns have passed and the city can't hold out anymore, the besieged army sallies forth to fight you. When they lose, you DON'T automatically get the town. The regular army units leave the city but come your next turn, you're still besieging the city and only the armed citizenry are left. If that is true for ETW, then you could follow Marquis of Roland's advice without risking the actual taking of both regional capitals.

An interesting postion and replies. In summary three strats to deal with them for the inevitable war coming.

1. Take France as per Servius, simplest and most direct but probably not the most fun, I prefer the cat playing with the mouse strats below,

2. Devastate France economically, as per Roland, not bad but perhaps a trifle un-aesthetic.

3. Have a strong enough navy to avoid trade blockades, then dismantle the OS French empire piece by piece till they beg for mercy( well I can only hope for that). I'd usually do this.

Naval superiority is the key.

Once you get even the slightest hint of an edge in naval superiority in the european theatre, take on the french navy and destroy it, then blockade a french home port, which will completely cut off their trade income and destroy them economically. They will cease to be any kind of a threat after this as long as you maintain the blockade (you dont even need many ships to maintain it once their economy is gone).

Then rinse, repeat with the spanish.

Yep! one can see game wise why Britain and France are destined to be bitter rivals. The French port of Le Havre and the British port of Greenwich are literally a stones throw away from each other across The Channel and whoever can command The Channel and blockade the others port is going to have dominance over the other.

This was what was really concerning me when France started looking beligerent, as I did not think I had the navy to defend the channel. However, the French failed to expliot their advantage and that moment has passed now. I have a Channel Fleet under Sir John Jervis poised and ready should France try to get cocky.

If I were you, I would take the war to the French in north America. Take out their main army and then march on Quebec. Invading France will be costly. In fact you could take over 1stack, beat the Paris army, destroy the French infrastructure and then either sell it or offer it back to France for peace.. It will take the French a good 20 turns to recover..

I got a bit fed-up with the 'screw the player' random diplomacy in my current game. As you know the AI will occassionally deliberately declare war on one of your allies at random just to force you accept the conflict or lose an ally.

Well in my currently game I have a long standing northern Protestant Alliance consisting of the Dutch, Hanoverians and Westphalians which I've had right through the game and have every intention of keeping till the end.

So, the AI decided to screw this alliance up by having Poland declare war on Westphalia. A state it can't even reach let alone attack, but it forced me to make a choice and I chose war with Poland rather than lose my ally.

Not usually a major problem as offering immediate peace usually means I keep my ally and lose my enemy. However, I've noticed that the AI gets more and more unreasonable as the game gets closer to its close and this time Poland simply would not accept peace, even if I offerred it my grandmother and pet poodle.

So, I got really annoyed and decided that Poland was going to pay for the 'dumb-arsed' programmer who programmed the AI so stupidly.

So, I sunk all its fleets, blockaded all its ports and still it refused to accept peace.

So, I landed a British Army in East Prussia, and still it refused to make peace.

So, I marched my army to Warsaw, and massacred its only major land army, and still refused to make peace.

So, I captured Warsaw, then offered it back if it would accept peace, and still it refused.

So, I trashed the entire of Poland, destroyed every building in the entire country and left it a total wasteland. And still it refused to make peace.

So, I gave Poland to Prussia in return to full Military Access and marched my army into Silesia, the next state occupied by Poland. Poland had no army left so capturing the Silesia was easy, I then offered Poland Silesia back 'unharmed' in return for peace and East Prussia. Finally, they accepted, but what a stupid piece of AI programming.

The next target is Austria who have been at war with me since 1702 and done nothing except refuse every offer of peace. So, Vienna get ready 'The British are coming'. :pirate2:

Once you have reached about -300 or so due to territorial expansion, making peace is very difficult. I am also playing GB. I destroyed France, Spain, Sweden, the traitorous Dutch, Portugal, Denmark, Saxoy & Courland, giving their territories to my protectorates - Hannover, Westphalia, Wurtemburg, Savoy & the Papal States.

I haven't destroyed several nations I'm at war with (declared by the AI) - Poland, Ottomans, Russia and Barbary Coast. I know that if I destroy them, then one of my protectorates will DoW on me, or another protectorate. Need to leave some active enemies alive to keep the AI happy...

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Originally Posted by anweRU

I haven't destroyed several nations I'm at war with (declared by the AI) - Poland, Ottomans, Russia and Barbary Coast. I know that if I destroy them, then one of my protectorates will DoW on me, or another protectorate. Need to leave some active enemies alive to keep the AI happy...

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That's absolutely right, being at war with enough people will avoid others (including allies & protectorates) hurling themselves at you like lemmings.

My experience suggests the AI algorithm includes a consideration for comparative military & economic strength. If you cripple an enemy -but don't finish him off completely, you may still cause "skynet" to launch another kamikaze faction against you. Better to contain a threat than stamp it out completely (especially the case in NA).

Lol! Totalcrap has struck again. Having trashed Poland in order to get the diplomacy routine to work, the AI has decided to sacrifice France in exactly the same way. Declared war on Westphalia, forcing me to choose between war or dishonour. So, I've stuck with my Ally and France is about to be turned into the largest rubbish tip in Europe. No doubt once I've done that TotalCrap with throw another lemming at me.

P.S. All done...even after I captured Paris they still would not make peace, so Paris is now a pile of rubble along with the rest of France. I'll see, it they want it back next turn, if not I'll give to the Eskimo's or something.

p.p.s. France still didn't want France back so I've given it to the Plain Indian's, we now have tepee's in Paris. Stupid game. Don't think I can be bothered anymore, might try downloading one of the full mods and see if that changes anything.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

That's absolutely right, being at war with enough people will avoid others (including allies & protectorates) hurling themselves at you like lemmings.

My experience suggests the AI algorithm includes a consideration for comparative military & economic strength. If you cripple an enemy -but don't finish him off completely, you may still cause "skynet" to launch another kamikaze faction against you. Better to contain a threat than stamp it out completely (especially the case in NA).

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Now that is some funny stuff there!! :laugh4:

the "skynet" reference made me laugh out loud.

Maybe we should refer to the AI as 'skynet' from now on just to take a piss a little? :beam:

I certainly am.