Europe

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8112581.stm

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The UK's Conservative MEPs have formed a new "anti-federalist" European Parliament bloc.

The new European Conservatives and Reformists Group includes 55 MEPs from across eight member states.

Leader David Cameron had vowed to take his MEPs out the centre-right European People's Party, saying its federalist views were against Tory policy.

Shadow Europe Minister Mark Francois said the move was an "important new development in European politics".

Biggest party

Mr Francois promised the new group would "make a strong case for a centre/centre-right but non-federalist future for the EU".

He said talks were continuing with other parties and he hoped more would join.

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The 54 MEPs at the moment are:

* 26 British Conservative MEPs
* 15 Polish MEPs from the Law and Justice Party
* 9 Czech MEPs from the Civic Democratic Party
* 1 MEP from Belgium's Lijst Dedecker - Derk Jan Eppink, a Dutchman who is a former senior European Commission official
* 1 MEP from the Hungarian Democratic Forum - Lajos Bokros, a former finance minister
* 1 MEP from the Latvian National Independence Movement - Roberts Zile, a former finance and transport minister
* 1 MEP from the Dutch Christian Union - Peter van Dalen

They have all signed up to a declaration, originally negotiated in Prague (henceforth to be known as the Prague Declaration), setting out the aims and values of the new grouping, the text of which is as follows:

"CONSCIOUS OF THE URGENT NEED TO REFORM THE EU ON THE BASIS OF EUROREALISM, OPENNESS, ACCOUNTABILITY AND DEMOCRACY, IN A WAY THAT RESPECTS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF OUR NATIONS AND CONCENTRATES ON ECONOMIC RECOVERY, GROWTH AND COMPETITIVENESS, THE EUROPEAN CONSERVATIVES AND REFORMISTS GROUP SHARES THE FOLLOWING PRINCIPLES:

1. Free enterprise, free and fair trade and competition, minimal regulation, lower taxation, and small government as the ultimate catalysts for individual freedom and personal and national prosperity.
2. Freedom of the individual, more personal responsibility and greater democratic accountability.
3. Sustainable, clean energy supply with an emphasis on energy security.
4. The importance of the family as the bedrock of society.
5. The sovereign integrity of the nation state, opposition to EU federalism and a renewed respect for true subsidiarity.
6. The overriding value of the transatlantic security relationship in a revitalised NATO, and support for young democracies across Europe.
7. Effectively controlled immigration and an end to abuse of asylum procedures.
8. Efficient and modern public services and sensitivity to the needs of both rural and urban communities.
9. An end to waste and excessive bureaucracy and a commitment to greater transparency and probity in the EU institutions and use of EU funds.
10. Respect and equitable treatment for all EU countries, new and old, large and small."

This is a very healthy development for the EU in my opinion, as it has long needed a mainstream opposition to EU federalism.

What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

This is a very healthy development for the EU in my opinion, as it has long needed a mainstream opposition to EU federalism.

What do you think?

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I think the Polish members are those dreadful Kaczyński twins again.
I think the Belgian members are far-right
I think the Latvians are dangerously close to fascism
I think the Dutch are reactionary homophobes

The others seem to be run-of-the-mill rural, conservative, somewhat alarmist but mainstream parties.

Family, God and Fatherland seems to be what they all have in common. Best of luck to the British Conservatives. Remember: in the end, the only thing national parties have in common, is incompatible national narratives and interests. Pan-national national parties don't tend to last very long.

On the subject of the perceived purity of the EUropean political blocks:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I think the Polish members are those dreadful Kaczyński twins again.
I think the Belgian members are far-right
I think the Latvians are dangerously close to fascism
I think the Dutch are reactionary homophobes

The others seem to be run-of-the-mill rural, conservative, somewhat alarmist but mainstream parties.

Family, God and Fatherland seems to be what they all have in common. Best of luck to the British Conservatives. Remember: in the end, the only thing national parties have in common, is incompatible national narratives and interests. Pan-national national parties don't tend to last very long.

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Those EPP extremists and fascists in full:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_...scists_in_full

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José Manuel Barroso is cross because the Tories are leaving the Euro-fanatical European People's Party. Paul Waugh of the Evening Standard glosses the Commission President's remarks as follows:

"Why is Cameron linking up with fringe parties, some members of which have strange views on climate change, homosexuality and race?"

Hmm. Let's have a look at some of these "fringe parties", shall we? Here's the Deputy Speaker of the Polish Sejm rejoicing in a court's decision to deprive a lesbian mother of custody of her four-year-old daughter: "The court didn't bow to pressure from the aggressive homosexual lobby, which came to make a scene as usual".

Here's a blatantly homophobic poster from last the Italian general election ("Daddy and Papa? This isn't the family we want!")

Here's the first minister of Hesse calling for deportations: "We have too many criminal young foreigners... Germany has had a Christian and Western culture for centuries, and foreigners who don't stick to our rules don't belong here".

(Even more blatant, incidentally, was that party's slogan in North Rhine-Westphalia in 2000, when it campaigned against the proposed immigration of computer programmers from India with the slogan Kinder statt Inder: "Children rather than Indians".)

And let's not forget the Austrian party whose Secretary General recently called for the banning of burqas, adding: "If we allow consultations to be held in Turkish, we will one day become Turkish ourselves".

What do you reckon? Acceptable partners for the modern Cameronian Conservatives?

Well, here's the thing. All these parties are currently in the EPP. They are, respectively, the Polish Civic Platform, Forza Italia, the German CDU and the Austrian People's Party.

Now you might object that I am quoting them selectively. You might protest that every party has its share of cranks and bigots. You might argue that a quick Google would reveal similar dirt on pretty well any party in Europe. And you'd have a point.

But can you imagine what Labour and the BBC and the Guardian would be making of these remarks if they had come from parties whom the Tories want to join outside the EPP?

Actually, you don't have to imagine. Ten years, the same Paul Waugh, then working for The Independent, wrote several reports about how the Conservatives were about to link up with "Italian neo-fascists". The reports were unfounded: no one had the slightest intention of sitting with the Alleanza Nazionale (which is whom he meant): as if its fascist roots weren't enough to disqualify it, the party was also anti-American, corporatist and Euro-fanatical. Not that this stopped the Indy running pompous comment pieces about "Tory extremism", and filling its pages with pictures of Mussolini.

Well, guess what? The Alleanza Nazionale is now joining the EPP. I've been scouring the pages for the denunciations by all those who have spent the past decade raging against the rumours of a Conservative/Alleanza tie-up. At the very least, Paul himself, having made such a big deal out of it, ought to be congratulating David Cameron for walking out the EPP rather than allowing his MEPs to sit with "the heirs to Mussolini". Oddly, I can't find anything by him yet. I'm sure it's on its way.

There is a serious point here, and it has to do with double standards. Being pro-Brussels is somehow regarded as an inoculation against the possibility of extremism. You can't possibly be a bigot, reason Leftie commentators, if you want to give more powers to the EU. (Actually, plenty of fascists have been Euro-fanatics, from the 1930s to the present day.) Do try to be even-handed, guys. There are good and bad people who oppose the EU, and there are good and bad people who support it. Any party can be caricatured through selective quotation. But being against Euro-federalism doesn't ipso facto make anyone extreme.

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Labour’s unsavory allies:
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/ce...y-allies-.html

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Proinsias De Rossa MEP (Ireland)

Born Francis Ross, Proinsias De Rossa is PES MEP for the Dublin constituency and former member of the IRA. De Rossa was interned by the Irish government in the late 1950s for his involvement in the IRA’s border campaign – a campaign which caused the deaths of six British policemen.

Democratic Society Party (Turkey)

Despite being outside the European Union, the Party of the European Socialists has awarded the Turkish Democratic Society Party associate membership of their party. According to the European Union Institute for Security Studies, it is an “obvious secret that [the Democratic Society Party] is connected to the PKK, the militant terrorist organisation headed up by Abdullah Öcalan. Following a KPP terrorist attack in October 2007, Labour’s very own David Miliband had the following to say: “The PKK is trying to destroy the Turkish government's efforts to improve the situation of people in the south east of the country, provoke conflict between Turkey and Iraq and damage regional stability... I call on the international community to be unequivocal in its condemnation of PKK terrorism and to support Turkey in restoring stability”.

Self-Defence of the Republic (Poland)

The Self-Defence of the Republic party claims to represent the interests of poor, agricultural workers against big business. It is more famous, however, for the erratic behaviour of its leader Andrzej Lepper, the recipient of two honorary degrees from the anti-Semitic Interregional Academy of Personnel Management which counts, amongst others, American white supremacist David Duke as an honorary professor. According to the BBC, his party anthem once featured the line "this land is your land, this land is my land [and] we won't let anyone punch us in the face" – somewhat unsurprising, given Lepper’s multiple convictions for assault. The Party of the European Socialists welcomed a Self-Defence MEP into their grouping in December 2004.

Giulietto Chiesa MEP (Italy)

A former communist party official and television journalist, Giulietto Chiesa has sat with the British Labour delegation in the Party of European Socialists since 2006. Over the past five years, his parliamentary activities have largely focussed around organising screenings in Parliamentary buildings of his 9/11 conspiracy theory film “Zero” which alleges that the Pentagon was actually hit by a missile and that the Twin Towers were really detonated by explosives placed inside the building. Turning to other international events, Chiesa stated his opinion that “Russia did precisely what had to be done” during last year’s Georgia crisis.

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Conservative MEPs will be in more respectable company outside the EPP:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_...utside_the_epp

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What about smearing them by association?

Here is the resulting piece, which The Guardian inexplicably places on its front page. Apparently, a backbencher from PiS called Urszula Krupa co-signed a letter with a man called Jerzy Robert Nowak. Nowak, we learn, is a pundit on a Right-wing radio station. The report goes on: "The station is run by Tadeusz Rydzyk, a controversial clergyman who is viscerally anti-German, anti-Russian and anti-EU, peddling a daily diet of bigotry and paranoia which resonates powerfully with mainly elderly rural voters."

Got that? Person X, a backbencher, co-signed a letter with person Y, who is connected to person Z who has offensive views. Therefore person X's entire party must be unacceptable. Therefore the British Conservatives are little better than fascists themselves.

Grow up, for Heaven's sake! There isn't a political party in the world that can't be besmirched at fourth hand like this. If a Polish newspaper were to set out to blackguard any of the three British parties, they could come up with worse. Twenty minutes on Google would reveal all sorts of disagreeable remarks made by councillors or ex-candidates.

Why doesn't The Guardian apply the same test to the EPP parties - or, indeed, to Labour's allies in the Party of European Socialists? Because it lowers the bar for Euro-integrationists. Support for the Brussels system serves as a charmed amulet, warding off any possible accusation of extremism.

If you think I'm being unfair, consider this story. For ten years, Italy's Alleanza Nazionale has been described, not least by The Guardian, as "neo-fascist"; the very fact that the AN was outside as the EPP was presented as a reason to stay in. In fact, those of us who were campaigning to leave the EPP never entertained the slightest possibility of sitting with the AN. But this didn't prevent Euro-integrationists from fatuously citing the party whenever leaving the EPP was mooted: "Oh, so you'd rather join up with Mussolini, would you?"

Well, guess what? The "neo-fascists" have now been accepted by the EPP. Having spent years castigating the Conservatives for supposedly wanting to sit with that party, The Guardian is now attacking them for refusing to do so. Funny old world, eh?

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do you know what Louis, i don't think your attempt to brand them as fringe lunatics holds much water, and your gut response is kind of predicable, as predicted here:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/david_h...new_euro_group

good luck with that glass house.......

It's what I predicted before the election. Just when they need the EU to counter a major economic crisis, the British are sending more Europhobes to Brussels in an attempt to sideline themselves. The new formation is going to be just another anti-tax party in disguise, and it is going to last just as long as all the others.

Mainstream my foot.

EDIT
'Racist flat earthers' made me laugh. Sorry Furunculus, the Daily Torygraph isn't very convincing.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

It's what I predicted before the election. Just when they need the EU to counter a major economic crisis, the British are sending more Europhobes to Brussels in an attempt to sideline themselves. The new formation is going to be just another anti-tax party in disguise, and it is going to last just as long as all the others.

Mainstream my foot.

EDIT
'Racist flat earthers' made me laugh. Sorry Furunculus, the Daily Torygraph isn't very convincing.

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Said perfectly without me having to lift a finger to write my own. Good show. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

It's what I predicted before the election. Just when they need the EU to counter a major economic crisis, the British are sending more Europhobes to Brussels in an attempt to sideline themselves. The new formation is going to be just another anti-tax party in disguise, and it is going to last just as long as all the others.

Mainstream my foot.

EDIT
'Racist flat earthers' made me laugh. Sorry Furunculus, the Daily Torygraph isn't very convincing.

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our wildly different opinions on the impact and relevance of this event only reinforces my conviction that EUro federalism cannot work without resorting to authoritarianism, necessary precisely because of the different cultural expectations on what national electorates expect from their society.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

The new formation is going to be just another anti-tax party in disguise

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See that is how you counter a crisis, it looks just fine.

Two world wars should have taught us a valuable lesson about why we should unite...

...but we always end up with people like that.

If they do not like the EU that much they should not have tried to become MEP's for crying out loud. They add insult to injury by not having realistic agendas either...

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

do you know what Louis,

your gut response is kind of predicable

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Yes, it is somewehat predictable, isn't it? Hey, you and I will never agree on the EU. :wink:

Even so, I do hope that there will be some mainstream Eurosceptic party that takes care of your opinion. Euroscepticism is a perfectly reasonable and respectable opinion, and it is some sort of travesty that Eurosceptics have so much trouble finding a moderate voice.

Half of me hopes not, half of me does, that the British Conservatives attend to the Eurosceptic vote. I would prefer they didn't cave in, and retained their 'enlightened' view of British interest. However, things are the way they are. There is a large, consistently Europsceptic electorate in the UK. And it is simply not properly represented by mainstream British parties. (Because the EU is a money making machine for Britain's open, internationally orientated services economy and the Conservatives know it full well)

I should hope you will find yourself represented in the British and European parliaments.

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

Two world wars should have taught us a valuable lesson about why we should unite...

...but we always end up with people like that.

If they do not like the EU that much they should not have tried to become MEP's for crying out loud. They add insult to injury by not having realistic agendas either...

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i can't speak for you, but two world wars taught me to be wary of those with a burning desire to harness other cultures under a single unrepresentative political governance.

people like who, you have to remember that not everyone shares your enthusiasm for ever-deeper-union (read: gradual federal integration).

they join because we are already in the EU, and they hope (just like everyone else) to reform the monlith into something their national electorate can tolerate.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Yes, it is somewehat predictable, isn't it? Hey, you and I will never agree on the EU. :wink:

Even so, I do hope that there will be some mainstream Eurosceptic party that takes care of your opinion. Euroscepticism is a perfectly reasonable and respectable opinion, and it is some sort of travesty that Eurosceptics have so much trouble finding a moderate voice.

Half of me hopes not, half of me does, that the British Conservatives attend to the Eurosceptic vote. I would prefer they didn't cave in, and retained their 'enlightened' view of British interest. However, things are the way they are. There is a large, consistently Europsceptic electorate in the UK. And it is simply not properly represented by mainstream British parties. (Because the EU is a money making machine for Britain's open, internationally orientated services economy and the Conservatives know it full well)

I should hope you will find yourself represented in the British and European parliaments.

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no, probably not. :)

that is the nature of representative politics, so yes it is indeed marvelous that i find there to be a EU political grouping that is more representative of my views.

are you insinuating once again that were we to leave then the EU would revoke free-trade, as if it were some kind of enlightened gift to be bestowed by a benevolent EU, rather than the natural order of things?

cheers, me too.

On the subject of the perceived purity of the EUropean dream, here is Timothy Garton-Ash misinforming the german public on britains attitudes to the EU:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...631359,00.html

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SPIEGEL: Cameron is now trying to forge an alliance with Polish and Czech opponents of Europe in the European Parliament.

Garton Ash: Farce begets farce. Unfortunately, the man carelessly stated a position on the question of the European Parliament in 2005, when he was fighting for the leadership of the Conservatives. Aside from that, though, he learned an important lesson from Blair: Never commit to anything. But that's why he must now remain true to himself, and is thereby compromising the British Conservatives. Suddenly they're in bed with Latvian friends of the Waffen SS, Polish homophobes and Czech deniers of climate change.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

our wildly different opinions on the impact and relevance of this event only reinforces my conviction that EUro federalism cannot work without resorting to authoritarianism, necessary precisely because of the different cultural expectations on what national electorates expect from their society.

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As non sequiturs go, this is a real beauty. Because you and I hold different opinions, Eurofederalism can only be authoritarian?

There is a 'Europe of states' embodied by the councils of ministers and heads of state and a 'Europe of the people' represented by the European parliament. The former is much stronger than the latter, it has regularly defeated and devoured the latter because the EP is pretty toothless. The Europe of states is the authoritarian Europe because it operates in secrecy and directs the European Commission which operates in secrecy as well. That's the Europe we're talking about. If we want to make it work properly it should be made accountable to the EP. That is the way forward. Withdrawal into one's little national shell is the way backward.

And the anti-tax platform in particular is stupid because for every euro a country invests in the EU it gets back six. At least 'we' do. If the British don't, they must be doing something wrong.

Consider this, my good man. I particularly like number 50.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Yes, it is somewehat predictable, isn't it? Hey, you and I will never agree on the EU. :wink:

Even so, I do hope that there will be some mainstream Eurosceptic party that takes care of your opinion. Euroscepticism is a perfectly reasonable and respectable opinion, and it is some sort of travesty that Eurosceptics have so much trouble finding a moderate voice.

I should hope you will find yourself represented in the British and European parliaments.

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Completely agreed. I find it kind of disturbing that most euroseptic parties/groups are always radicals. Neither the moderate left nor the moderate right achieved to give birth to a reasonable and respectable euroseptic movement.

I personnally think the EU has a damn lot of flaws (though I'm all for an european confederation or federation), but the debate about the EU is nothing but a white/black oversimplified manicheism. You either have to support the EU or be against it, and there's at the moment no middle-ground. Not a single shade of grey.

As for the party itself, I'm not surprised that Britishs and Poles form the largest part of it. I'm wondering why both countries begged so hard to enter the EU, but I'm also confident nobody could explain this.

Good for them, I suppose.

I wouldn't bet on this group making it to the next elections though.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

1. As non sequiturs go, this is a real beauty. Because you and I hold different opinions, Eurofederalism can only be authoritarian?

2. There is a 'Europe of states' embodied by the councils of ministers and heads of state and a 'Europe of the people' represented by the European parliament. The former is much stronger than the latter, it has regularly defeated and devoured the latter because the EP is pretty toothless. The Europe of states is the authoritarian Europe because it operates in secrecy and directs the European Commission which operates in secrecy as well. That's the Europe we're talking about. If we want to make it work properly it should be made accountable to the EP. That is the way forward. Withdrawal into one's little national shell is the way backward.

3. And the anti-tax platform in particular is stupid because for every euro a country invests in the EU it gets back six. At least 'we' do. If the British don't, they must be doing something wrong.

4. Consider this, my good man. I particularly like number 50.

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1. no, i'm telling you about my views which inform my opinion as to why the EU is best left as an informal free-trade bloc.

2. or the EU could just be a free-trade zone........... just an idea.

3. what do you mean by "anti-tax platform"?

4. legislation is best done at a level that retains its links to demos-cratos, which is the sovereign nation state.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Completely agreed. I find it kind of disturbing that most euroseptic parties/groups are always radicals. Neither the moderate left nor the moderate right achieved to give birth to a reasonable and respectable euroseptic movement.

I personnally think the EU has a damn lot of flaws (though I'm all for an european confederation or federation), but the debate about the EU is nothing but a white/black oversimplified manicheism. You either have to support the EU or be against it, and there's at the moment no middle-ground. Not a single shade of grey.

As for the party itself, I'm not surprised that Britishs and Poles form the largest part of it. I'm wondering why both countries begged so hard to enter the EU, but I'm also confident nobody could explain this.

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not radicals any more, the EPP in particular could not give birth to moderate (right-wing) EUro-skepticism because it is an explicitly pro-federal party.

this probably results from so many national electorates being left without a mainstream party that campaigns on a EUro-skeptic ticket.

i cannot speak for poland, but britain's choice results from its post-colonial/WW2/socialist hangover where the country perceived itself to be in a state of perpetual decline, and popularly dubbed as the "sick man of europe".

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

I wouldn't bet on this group making it to the next elections though.

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you think so, why?

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

I cannot speak for poland, but britain's choice results from its post-colonial/WW2/socialist hangover where the country perceived itself to be in a state of perpetual decline, and popularly dubbed as the "sick man of europe".

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And it was, until, that is, the EU provided a new prospect for the UK. Which it grabbed with one hand while lashing out at it with the other.

A bit like Poland really.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

And it was, until, that is, the EU provided a new prospect for the UK. Which it grabbed with one hand while lashing out at it with the other.

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we had free-trade with europe for over a decade before we joined the EEC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...de_Association

and we did not start to recover from economic malaise until the the early eighties, nearly a decade after we joined the EEC.

your position that the UK owes its prosperity to the EEC/EU is ridiculous, europe is atrade partner just like any other.

Well the Finnish MEP is actually from the main governing party of Finland so he can hardly be counted as extremist. I dont understand the atmosphere when ever EU is talked about. As if it is somekind of sacred cow. It seems one should only hate it or love it and anykind of sensical talk about reforming it is out of the question when the opposing sides concentrate on labeling each other.:juggle2:

maybe now that there is a mainstream anti-federalist movement within the EU the debate on where the EU goes in future will be more reasonable too.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

you think so, why?

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I'm thinking that the similarities between the respective national parties are way to flimsy for them to coexist in a single group. The ChristianUnie from the Netherlands, aside from being homophobic, has generally leftist views on economy and immigration. The Polish Law and Justice Party could be described as reactionary, but I prefer the term "regressive" and "joke".
Of course the various national parties within the current EP groups differ from eachother, but there's enough overlap to warrant cooperation. That's not my impression with this new group.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

I'm thinking that the similarities between the respective national parties are way to flimsy for them to coexist in a single group. The ChristianUnie from the Netherlands, aside from being homophobic, has generally leftist views on economy and immigration. The Polish Law and Justice Party could be described as reactionary, but I prefer the term "regressive" and "joke".
Of course the various national parties within the current EP groups differ from eachother, but there's enough overlap to warrant cooperation. That's not my impression with this new group.

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the examples above provide plenty of similar examples from within the other major block groupings........

and this group have agreed a set of binding principles which govern the party's platform, again linked above.

I think Kraz is right it's cats fighting in a bag.

i guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

[..] it is some sort of travesty that Eurosceptics have so much trouble finding a moderate voice.

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That's because it is a retrograde view. In fact the quip about 'racist flat-earthers' comes very close. What the racist part doesn't cover, the flat earth part does. One reason why such extremes are more likely to gain votes in nations like Britain and Poland is probably that those nations feel more aggrieved about past losses and present strategic insecurities. I am convinced that if the EU would support Poland more firmly every time it is being bullied by Russia this would go a long way toward appeasing Polish anti-EU sentiments. This would of course require a firmer and more united EU policy. Alas, as long as Germany and Italy appease Russia in the interest of their energy provision and France and Great Britain prefer to look the other way, we will never have such a policy.

Like I said, it's this 'Europe of the states' that never amounts to anything beyond the cumulative self-interest of its member states. A different make-up, centered on a Commission with parliamentary accountability, should bring much-needed change. I am sorry to disappoint our member from Finland who maintains that 'Europe' is like a sacred cow and you're either for or against it. I regard it as the only chance to preserve our values and way of life, but if we want it to be just that, it needs a lot of reforming.

The Tories aside, I think the main issue with "eurosceptic" politicians is that they always try to protray mainstream political parties as being essentially the same as soon as they're seated in the EP. Anyone with more than a cursory understanding of EU politics knows that this is not the case.

Even if they don't think that the EU should be abolished entirely, they advance ideas that would pretty much do just that in practice. For example, the Dutch Socialist Party thinks that Dutch judges should cast aside EU rules if they conflict with national legislation- they either have not thought this one through or are not honest enough to admit that they think there should be no EU regulation at all :wall:

If the EU is to move foward the commission must be eliminated, the assumption that that corrupt body has a future in the EU is a Sacred Cow you seem to adhere to, Adrian.

The EU is already a federal state, but it has been done un-democratically because the EU is run by State, not people. That is the reason the British are upset, we have no control over the direction of this monstrosity.

When it comes to election time people vote on the party they think will best-run their country, the executive of that party then also controls the direction of the federal government. So long as State governments control the federation it will remain un-democratic and therefore abhorrent.

The entirity of the governing aparatus of the EU MUST be directly elected if the institution is to do anything other than self-destruct.