The pike issue

So, as we all know, pike units in this game leave something to be desired. Unmodded, they throw down their spears almost immediately after making contact, making the spears useless except for receiving the enemy's initial charge. This can be avoided by removing their secondary sword, but this has the side effect of making their spearwall impenetrable.

I had a thought today. What would be the result of removing the secondary weapon AND the ability to form spearwall? Has this been tried before? If it hasn't, I'll gladly test it out myself.

Hm you use pikes for offence?
At defence from my experience they are really good.Eg.First line is your archers second line pikes-Mongol heavy lancers charge u retreat your archers and cavalry charge on the spearwall and all die with really low casualties at the pikemen...Especially portugals pikemen are reaaaaaly deadly...

The whole point is that pikemen are counter to cavalry if facing top heavy infantry they get massacred...

And about the modding thing i dont think it can work.Since when the pikemen fight at close range-sword range,how the hell would be realistic to use this extremly long spear???!

Pike are meant for defence only. It'll be easy to use them for offence only after they break the cavalry charge.

Can someone explain to me how to use pikemen? I see the AI pikemen levelling their pikes to receive a cavalry charge but I can never get my own to do that. When charged they simply receive it with pikes held upwards before switching to single hand weapons.

Plus, if your enemy moves in gun troops, your pikes are going to be killed. They are needed for cavarly charge breakers and for defense in sieges, but that about it.

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Originally Posted by Quickening

Can someone explain to me how to use pikemen? I see the AI pikemen levelling their pikes to receive a cavalry charge but I can never get my own to do that. When charged they simply receive it with pikes held upwards before switching to single hand weapons.

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Click the "Stop" order button.

Pikes are great on defense, especially at defending the gate or wall breaches. However, when used properly they can be almost as astonishingly effective on offense, if their secondary weapon is removed. About the most effective exploit that I have seen is to use spies to open the gates and send in pikemen (inexperienced militia will do fine) straight to the town center - or even a citadel center. Unless there are hordes of good defending archers on the walls and you have no swordsmen with which to rush and engage the archers, the pikemen just macerate every living thing in their way. The best general bodyguard units hold out slightly longer than most but only by a few seconds. If you try this without a general and the enemy has a dreadful general your militia may route. If the enemy is defending a citadel with his level 10 king and nothing else (as sometimes happens) you can take the citadel with Scots pike militia with almost no losses.

The most astounding thing to watch is a unit of Timurid elephants charge into some Scots Noble Pikemen. I saw 5 elephants just fall over immediately upon impacting the pike line. The rest of the elephants were killed off in moments. Usually the AI won't charge pikes with elephants and they have to be pinned down to allow the pikes to get to them. Pikes attacking the elephants from the rear is a good show. For some reason Varangian Guards do much better against pikemen and can defeat the lower morale and armored ones.

Pikemen do not do well attacking across a bridge against the Mongols.

Does anyone have experience in multiplayer using pikemen with their secondary weapons reomved? I imagine that they would not seem to be so overpowering.

I may very well be wrong about this, but if the pikemen are set to guard mode, doesn't that make them maximise the use of their pikes?

I thought I'd try them out to see what "all the fuss" is about, so I set up a custom game... and if I'm being honest about it, they work fine on my "Vanilla" set-up (no mods, just the official game update patches). I understand from earlier posts that before the update patches folk said pikes were too strong, but with all the latest update patches, they seem to be nicely balanced in my book... I don't wish to sound patronising in any way, but maybe a quick recap of how pikes were used on the medieval battlefield might help to give a fuller understanding of how to use them in the game.

So long as you understand the strategy of "sword & shield" also called the "hammer and anvil", then pikes are awesome. If you save this to your replays folder, you'll see what I mean http://www.mediafire.com/file/mdq01yzvzhz/Pike Fight.rpy
(Replays would normally be found in ProgramFiles/Sega/Medieval II Total War/replays)
To give you an idea, these are both 10K armies and none of the units have received any upgrades (no valour, weapons etc), they're just "straight out of the tin". No other settings were adjusted, so "guard mode" was left on, as was "spear wall" (or whatever they called it).

Alright, so I'm still a bit rusty, but you get the idea... use pikes to hold the enemy unit and then use cavalry and/or other infantry units to flank the unit being held by the pikes. If you have to, move in close and stop - the enemy will be suckered into charging you, but make sure your timing is right to ensure your pike units have stopped and braced for impact.

At the end of the day, a disciplined unit of pikes is the most formidable formation to meet face-to-face in a head-on meatgrinder of a fight... That's why the Scots used them to such great effect against both cavalry and infantry. Given their cost to effectiveness ratio, it was a no-brainer to develop the use of the pike... ultimately being the last hand-to-hand infantry units to be disbanded in European armies, hence the term "pike and musket" for the armies of the 17th Century.

Sorry if it seems I'm flooding the thread, but I can't edit my posts yet...

Anyway, I thought I'd try a couple more custom battles with an emphasis on pikes. As stated in previous post, I have a "vanilla" set-up with all the official update patches installed. In this first replay, I set up two almost identical armies to slug it out...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/mniri2tgnkt/Pike vs Pike.rpy

In this second replay, I used the Scottish pike army from the first replay as the opposition, but this time I chose my "normal" 10K Hungarian army with which to fight it...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/mmnyv5jndgj/Hungarian vs Pike.rpy

*** *** ***

If there's a point at all, it would be that you don't use a spanner to change a lightbulb... umm... I mean, you got to learn the how-when-where of deploying units and to use the right unit for the job - there isn't any one military unit that will magically win your battles for you, but if you understand the function of each unit, then you can maximise your own abilities and exploit the weaknesses of your foe.

Pikes are typical of non-elite infantry... if you leave them unsupported against an elite infantry unit and/or they get flanked, then they're gonna run sooner than elite units... BUT... if you keep them supported, they'll stand fast long enough for you to achieve local superiority on the battlefield, and that wins battles.

e.g. imagine you got a unit of pikes facing some dismounted men-at-arms with their swords, shields and armour. Your pikes will inflict a fair number of casualties whilst the units are a pike-length apart... but once the men-at-arms have fought until they are nose-to-nose with the front line of your pikes, then your pike front line has no choice but to switch to their secondary weapons (albeit the second/third rows in your pike unit still press forward with their pikes until they too are nose-to-nose with the enemy).

So now you got the situation that without their pikes, they're just a light infantry unit barely much better than archers trying to go toe-to-toe with the creme-de-la-creme of the enemy's army. So they'll fight for a short while, but if they don't have any support going their way, then they'll turn tail and run... BUT... if they get extra support from another unit, then suddenly it's two to one i.e. local superiority has been achieved and so there is a much higher chance of defeating that elite enemy unit. Sometimes that still won't be enough, but they'll keep holding long enough for you to flank that enemy elite unit and give it a good pounding from behind and before you know it, you can watch all that nice shiny armour and weaponry get routed right off the field.

The secret is to keep your units working together rather than unsupported. Of course, you can deliberately leave units unsupported on purpose (imagine it a bit like a sacrifice move in chess) in order to disrupt the enemy's formation and/or enable you to obtain a local superiority on a more critical part of the battlefield, but that, as they say, is a whole different ballgame.

:2thumbsup:

I finally learned how to make a movie (well, simply by installing FRAPS actually)... and here's a wee clip of how effective pikes can be in a "vanilla" set-up when combined with melee troops in support. Once the initial charge was received, "Guard Mode" was switched off to allow the pikemen to press forward "meatgrinder" style.

I had to sacrifice my cavalry in order to induce the English to charge my line, so it took a while to mop up the English after I broke them. The following clip is not the full battle, it's just the English charge on my line and then being broken. The supporting line of melee troops comprised of three units of Highland Nobles and my general fighting on foot as a unit of Noble Swordsmen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYmgIEWPZPA

Obviously, my comments at the end are intended to be a wee bit of banter, and not trying to offend any English members!

:wall: (This is intended for various posters, but certainly not the preceding poster.)

What pikes are supposed to be:
Good at defending, especially against cavalry.

What pikes are not supposed to be:
Good at attacking.
Good at chasing routed cavalry.
Good at soaking up missile fire.
Good at demolishing walls.

As IncubusDragon was saying, use the right tool for the job. If you want a good attacker, use knights (mounted or dismounted, depending on opponent). If you want to chase routed cavalry, use light cavalry. If you want to soak up missile fire, use peasants. If you want to demolish walls, use artillery.

Yes, you can mod pikes to make them good at something they are not supposed to be, but what would be the point? Whilst you're at it, why not give them higher stats, horses, shields and shoulder-mounted culverin? Because they're not supposed to have them, that's why. If they did, no other units would be required.

Use pikes for what they are - a good defence that needs balanced support from other units capable of performing other functions.

Why else do you think pikes have been "bugged" in this way since RTW?

Nice work, Incubus Dragon. On the YouTube video, am I understanding correctly the pikemen were initially on Guard, and then you shut it off after the initial charge? Pretty effective how they instantly routed the initial cavalry charge.

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Originally Posted by gardibolt

Nice work, Incubus Dragon. On the YouTube video, am I understanding correctly the pikemen were initially on Guard, and then you shut it off after the initial charge? Pretty effective how they instantly routed the initial cavalry charge.

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Aye, that's right mate... in the YouTube clip, the pikemen are already bracing in "guard mode". I then removed their "guard mode" after impact at around 35/36 seconds into the clip.

After melee combat was underway, I sent in my supporting troops... I was using Highland Nobles in the YouTube clip, but that was probably a bit of overkill, as I can regularly use any unit in the exact same role - right down to and including peasants, albeit usually also with the standard "sword-and-shield" tactic of flanking cavalry hitting the engaged enemy unit in its flank and/or rear.

The other thing I would mention is that if you're using unarmoured pike units (e.g. Highland Pikemen), then it's vital to prioritise eliminating enemy archers as early in the battle as possible, or your tight formation of slow-moving pikemen can easily be significantly depleted due to casualties before clashing with the enemy... which would result in a shaken morale that would make them more inclined to rout at the commencement of melee combat. It's mostly a question of timing - Border Horse are usually fast enough to get in there and hit-and-run the enemy archers with minimal casualties so long as you don't let them get bogged-down in melee combat... but even if it is worst case scenario, I reckon it's worth sacrificing a unit of Border Horse to take out the enemy's archers in order to keep your pike units at full stength.

The problem with unmodified pikes is that they are the worst unit in the game even at defense. (Well, swordstaff militia may suck even worse because they have shorter pikes and can't out run a 3-legged tortoise.)

I have tried every combination of formation for them. They die quicker and run faster than any other unit. If you play with their formation they will delay some but not enough to be significant. This unit is about as realistic as the elephants with extreme range cannons. Personally, I am beginning to think that the designer or programmer responsible must have an incredible bias against historical warfare. If pikes were this stinking poor, why did not the Scots just throw rocks. At least they had a huge supply of them.

@ OldGeezer
Sure, you never know the strength of the pikes lies in patiently lure enemy formations to impale themself with long pointy sticks, but they could be used offensively with pressing alt, and prepare for much micro. Just don't expect it was as easy as sending english armoured swordsmen to charge enemy line... afterall, Scots is about the Braveheart.....

If pikemen were such crappy attackers why did the late medieval armies come to be dominated by them? In western Europe historically only pikes and longbows were able to defeat knights/men-at-arms. It took way too many years to train longbowmen for them to become the mainstay of large armies. Pikemen were far easier to recruit and train to the level of discipline required. Nobles would chafe at the disciple required but the burghers could handle it as they weren't out for glory and honor but sought to stay alive and perhaps get some loot.

I actually use the mentioned Swordstaff Militia and it is working great for me.

I never use them for attack since danish have Norse Axemen and Norse Swordmen to do that. But in defence I usually have 2 Archer/Crossbow Militia, 2 Spear Militia and 2 Swordstaff Militia.

I put them on both sides of road where city centrum and the road from gate comes. Then I put the spear militia in the middle in schildrom and the archers/crosbowmen behind them.

Looks like little this: (A=archer, P=swordstaff, S=spear, []=building corners)
[ ]
P S S P
A A

I rarely move them, In some cases I move them back and reform them and let them take on the cavarly that comes around and between the spears. Archers are doing most of the killing and spears are not really doing much else than "turtling" in the middle.

If theres an opening I charge forward with spears and archers. Then reform the pikes and run back behind them. Or just scildrom the spears again to the point where i am and then move the pikes to poke the ones going to backside of the spears.

...

I agree that historically there was a lot of pikes but I dont think there where so much pure pike units. I would guess there might have been mixed units of pikes with some traditional melee fighters. That way the melee fighters could go to frontline and pikes would support from behind them. And when cavarly charges they switch places. I also read somewhere that there was two handed swordsmen in pike units to cut the enemy pike units pikes.

I've been working on a Historical Battle for the Battle Of Flodden Field, which is a demonstration of how not to use european pike... I believe many people get confused between the european and Scottish pike - the Scottish pike being a much more sturdy affair... but more on that later coz I'm a wee bit pressed for time at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, given a choice, I usually fight with elite troops rather than pikemen... but pikemen undoubtedly get a bad press here (generally speaking).

What I would like someone to do is suggest two armies for me to use in a custom battle (vanilla setup) - one pike based for me to use offensively and an army of any other composition of your choice to fight against - I will then happily fight that battle and post the replay in this thread.

Forgive my hubris and unabashed arrogance. I haven't played M2:TW yet... I bought it, got it up and running, and then my nine year old motherboard decided that the BIOS chip had done enough in this life and gave up the ghost. While I've been waiting on parts to build a new, massively more powerful machine (yay!), I've been reading everything I can about the game, the units, tactics, etc etc. I've learned that pikes are broken. Only... it seems to me that those complaining they are broken are trying to use them in a way they weren't actually used. So, a primer on the historical use of pikes seems in order, since it sounds to me like they work as they should...

Now, I already mentioned that I haven't played the game yet. So I can't speak to the actual mechanics in-game other than what I've read from others. That said, I've put hundreds of hours into MTW, and I actually wore out the CDs on my first copy of RTW - mostly playing RTR6.

Oh yeah, and I've been (or I am, since I don't think one can stop being) an ancient and early (read: dark age) medieval historian, specializing in military equipment and practice (currently trying to write a novel and break into acting... but that's another story). Does that mean I know everything? No. The high era of pike use (14th-17th centuries) is outside my (former) professional interest (800 BC - 1000 AD), so I can only make claims to amateur status here.

But enough of that... and onto the meat!

I. Pikes are not sarrisas.

I love the Macedonian phalanx. In RTR, nothing was more satisfying to me than playing as Bactria and facing off phalanx to phalanx against the Seleucids. In ancient times, with sufficiently trained men, and with the right supporting forces on the flanks, and on flat ground the Hellenistic phalanx was unbeatable - if it kept in good order.

Let's examine that statement, though... men have to be well trained, the right supporting forces have to be present, the ground has to be right, and the men have to stay in good order... that's a lot of 'ifs', and that's for the time period that inspired later tacticians to re-invent pike formations!

It wasn't until the 15th century that the Swiss and the Flems really began to achieve the necessary level of training to employ pikes effectively. Later the Spanish would dominate the field, but the point is that the average run-of-the-mill pike unit in the Middle Ages shouldn't be as affective as the phalanxes of RTW (and especially RTR). So if the frame of reference you are using is RTW experience, stop.

*A note on Scots pikes: Yes, the Scots scored some amazing victories with pike-based armies a century and more earlier than the Swiss and Flems, but let's talk about the two main encounters... The victory at Stirling Bridge had more to do with local superiority of numbers and the force of a downhill charge at disorganised troops than with the weapons used. Likewise, I think de Bruce was the Man, but his victory at Bannockburn was due to good use of the terrain, good fortune in demoralising the English army the day before with his axe-on-pony stunt, and the horribly inept leadership of Edward II - without those things, the schiltroms would have been swept from the field, and it was a close run thing as it was.

II. There are swords and then there are swords!

Technology does not stand still. Even though a lot of knowledge was lost at the end of Antiquity, the art of manufacturing implements of destruction barely had a speedbump. Advances in metalworking during the early medieval period and after meant that swords could be longer, sharper, and more durable. A longer sword means more kinetic energy at the end of the blade, and a sharper sword means more PSI at the point of impact. What does this matter?

When facing the phalanx, the Roman Legionary had to dodge around the pike heads to get in close. When facing a pike formation, a German Landsknecht armed with a zweihander just chops the pike heads off. That was the purpose of two-handed swords (the exception being Scotland, but despite being two-handed, the claymore is a smaller, and MUCH lighter sword than the zweihanders). After closing with the pikemen, zweihander armed soldiers would usually switch to a smaller weapon.

Of course, dodging around the pike heads was still a viable option given the more plentiful and better quality armour that was around in the mid-late middle ages, and was the primary purpose of sword-and-buckler armed soldiers. Most countries, led by the Swiss as innovators, used pikemen, zweihanders, short spearmen, and sword-and-buckler men in large mixed units in order to offset the pure pike formation's near total vulnerability to heavy infantry attack. The swordsmen would fight in front of the pikes, with the pikes supporting from the rear, unless a cavalry charge was expected.

The point is, unsupported pike formations should be vulnerable to sword-armed units and other well-armoured infantry. And really, the exact same thing was true back in Hellenistic times, which is why phalanxes were only successful when used as the anvil to a cavalry or elephant hammer. It was just that the swordsmen of that era had shorter or lower quality swords, and tended (with exceptions like Rome) to be less well armoured than in later centuries, which meant the phalanx could fight unsupported in the front for a time, while the cavalry got into position - provided the men were well-trained, and the ground was flat, etc etc.

III. So... why did pikes become so common?

They were cheap! And deadly effective against mounted knights.

BUT... as mentioned before, pikes got chopped to bits by dismounted swordsmen (if left unsupported) and at battles like Halidon Hill, one can see what happens when the other side has missile superiority (not pretty). Basically, pikes were a bust when used defensively, because they can't stand and take fire. Pikes were most effective as an offensive weapon. Yes, that's right... offensive.

There were two main variation of successful offensive pike formations. The Swiss pioneered the first: large, deep, bodies of men advancing in column and preceded by zweihanders to break enemy pike formations and protect the front row of pikemen. And by large, I mean LARGE: 5000 men in a block, not uncommon. Perhaps 80% pike, the rest swords and halberds.

The rise of field artillery and arquebusiers spelt the end of the deep attack column, and the rise of a new formation invented by the Spanish - the tercio. Let me make this clear... 'tercio' is a name for a formation and tactic, not a unit - historically. As long as this is, I don't want to go into a detailed description (but you can read one under 'Tercio' on Wikipedia that is decent ) but suffice to say it's a complicated formation that is half pike, 1/3 arquebusier, and the rest sword and buckler and javelin infantry. Total size: 3000 men. This flexible combination dominated field warfare for more than a century, due to its firepower and invulnerability to cavalry attack.

IV. The End (whew!)

The point, I would gather, for in-game use is that units of pikemen, swordsmen, and later firearms, should be grouped into divisions and used as a whole. When fighting other infantry, the swordsmen should form the front line with the pikes 'pushing' from behind them. Later, with the addition of firearms, the pike divisions should be stand-off formations with the guns causing most casualties - the pikes are only there to shield the guns from assault. The pikemen should form the front line only when fighting cavalry! Otherwise, let them push from the rear and use their pikes over the heads of well-armoured swordsmen. Used this way, historically, pikes are a cheap force multiplier and nothing I've read suggests to me that this tactic won't work in M2TW.

I should get my parts Monday, and be able to test it out for myself Monday night (provided nothing arrives DOA!). In the meantime, if someone wants to test for themselves and let us all know, please do!

An interesting read and welcome to the .org.

Never really got into using pikes much in m2tw as I like my heavy infantry and spears, though in Vanilla you'll know what everyone is carrying on about as soon as you get the chance to have a battle using pikes. I would suggest downloading a mod to improve gameplay experience.

Enjoy your stay!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IncubusDragon

I've been working on a Historical Battle for the Battle Of Flodden Field, which is a demonstration of how not to use european pike... I believe many people get confused between the european and Scottish pike - the Scottish pike being a much more sturdy affair... but more on that later coz I'm a wee bit pressed for time at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, given a choice, I usually fight with elite troops rather than pikemen... but pikemen undoubtedly get a bad press here (generally speaking).

What I would like someone to do is suggest two armies for me to use in a custom battle (vanilla setup) - one pike based for me to use offensively and an army of any other composition of your choice to fight against - I will then happily fight that battle and post the replay in this thread.

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OK

France vs England

All units 3 bronze valour :yes: Grassy flatland, difficulty hard

France
- 2 peasant archers
- 2 crossbowmen
- 2 mailed knights
- 4 pikemen
- 1 voulgier
- 1 voulgier militia
- 4 pike militia
- 2 armoured sergeants
- 1 dismounted chivalrous knights
- 1 serpentine

England
- 2 peasant archers
- 3 yeoman archers
- 2 english knights
- 1 demi lancer
- 5 armoured swordsmen
- 3 armoured sergeants
- 2 billmen
- 2 culverins/cannons

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Originally Posted by Galain_Ironhide

An interesting read and welcome to the .org.

Never really got into using pikes much in m2tw as I like my heavy infantry and spears, though in Vanilla you'll know what everyone is carrying on about as soon as you get the chance to have a battle using pikes. I would suggest downloading a mod to improve gameplay experience.

Enjoy your stay!

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I probably will download a mod, eventually. I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to a realism focused mod that has 2tpy or, even better, 4tpy and makes expansion realistically difficult... for a longer, more in-depth game - a la RTR for RTW did.

But as for pikes, yes... we'll see. My tentative assumption, after reading through the forums here and at twcenter, is that they work as they should and are no more 'broken' than the wedge formation was in MTW and RTW. Wedge worked fine, I even wrote a guide about how to use it over at twcenter ages ago, and yet everyone carried on for years about it being buggy.

As of this moment I'm more concerned about two-handed weapon animations, that sounds more likely to be a legitimate issue, to me. :inquisitive:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Incomitatus

As of this moment I'm more concerned about two-handed weapon animations, that sounds more likely to be a legitimate issue, to me. :inquisitive:

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Well 2 handed weapons can be handy but no shield is a massive downfall, I think if we focus on a particular type of two handed weapon....the poleaxe :shame: Lets just say, poleaxe wielding infantry vs cavalry are utterly useless (like don't kill anything) and only perform averagely against other infantry. I think because of there slow attacks and lack of shield as I already mentioned.

Perhaps the export_descr_unit.txt could be adapted by adding a spear_bonus to 2 handed weapons which would help them fend off cavalry. Also an even larger attack increase than what they already have (due to slow attacks, when they do attack they must successfully kill the opponent or they may not get another chance. :laugh4: ) Either way, pikes are more useful than poleaxes, and some other 2 handed weapons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thermal Mercury

Well 2 handed weapons can be handy but no shield is a massive downfall, I think if we focus on a particular type of two handed weapon....the poleaxe :shame: Lets just say, poleaxe wielding infantry vs cavalry are utterly useless (like don't kill anything) and only perform averagely against other infantry. I think because of there slow attacks and lack of shield as I already mentioned.

Perhaps the export_descr_unit.txt could be adapted by adding a spear_bonus to 2 handed weapons which would help them fend off cavalry. Also an even larger attack increase than what they already have (due to slow attacks, when they do attack they must successfully kill the opponent or they may not get another chance. :laugh4: ) Either way, pikes are more useful than poleaxes, and some other 2 handed weapons.

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he is takling about the animations....not the balance....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Incomitatus

I've been reading everything I can about the game, the units, tactics, etc etc. I've learned that pikes are broken. Only... it seems to me that those complaining they are broken are trying to use them in a way they weren't actually used.

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It's true that there are a lot of complaints about pikes, many people claiming they're difficult to use, underpowered, etcetera etcetera. And I think the vast majority of posters in this thread have mistaken me for one of those people who dislike pikes on a gameplay basis. My complaint is aesthetic (I think my first post says about as much). I don't like seeing my Swiss Pikemen throwing down their spears two seconds into combat, for reasons I think are pretty self-explanatory, regardless of the fact that Swiss Pikemen are effective units anyway. Some mods (Stainless Steel comes to mind) have tried to rectify this issue by removing the secondary sword, but this had the consequence of creating impenetrable spear walls as in Rome, which doescause gameplay problems, but by making pikes too powerful rather than not powerful enough. I was proposing an alternative method of dealing with the issue, which on reflection was probably not very feasible. I think we'll have to chock it up to a flaw in the engine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thermal Mercury

OK

France vs England

All units 3 bronze valour :yes: Grassy flatland, difficulty hard

France
- 2 peasant archers
- 2 crossbowmen
- 2 mailed knights
- 4 pikemen
- 1 voulgier
- 1 voulgier militia
- 4 pike militia
- 2 armoured sergeants
- 1 dismounted chivalrous knights
- 1 serpentine

England
- 2 peasant archers
- 3 yeoman archers
- 2 english knights
- 1 demi lancer
- 5 armoured swordsmen
- 3 armoured sergeants
- 2 billmen
- 2 culverins/cannons

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Unfortunately, the AI never engaged with their cavalry, but here's an offensive use of pike formations...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/mzhgxzyyjm3/1st

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Incomitatus

I probably will download a mod, eventually. I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to a realism focused mod that has 2tpy or, even better, 4tpy and makes expansion realistically difficult... for a longer, more in-depth game - a la RTR for RTW did.

But as for pikes, yes... we'll see. My tentative assumption, after reading through the forums here and at twcenter, is that they work as they should and are no more 'broken' than the wedge formation was in MTW and RTW. Wedge worked fine, I even wrote a guide about how to use it over at twcenter ages ago, and yet everyone carried on for years about it being buggy.

As of this moment I'm more concerned about two-handed weapon animations, that sounds more likely to be a legitimate issue, to me. :inquisitive:

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I was hoping if you could give a link to the use of the wedge, ive never used it not cause i thought it was bugged but quite literally because i didnt know how to use it.