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Hey there,
was there some kind of military music in antiquity, like we know it today?
I don't mean marching bands exactly, but more instruments that accompanied the troops in battle or on parade. I know there were many kind of horns and trumpets, like the Roman Cornicen. But were there drums too, for example? Did they have any kind of written or formalised music that they played more or less in the same way everytime?
Thank you.
P.S. I especially recommend 7:30 and beyond in the video.
The Chinese used to bring drums to the battlefield to increase morale, intimidate the enemy, give orders throughout the battle, and to set a pace when marching. Plus, the sound of a bunch of drums beating would make any soldier eager to rush the enemy.
:drummer::horn::duel::viking::charge:
I believe I read somewhere that the Parthians used drums to unnerve their opponets before battle. I'll see if I can find the source...:book:
The Parthians have hollow drums of distended hide, covered with bronze bells, and these they beat all around. The instruments give forth a low and dismal tone, a blend of wild beast's roar and harsh thunder peal-Plutarch
The modern concept of marching with music came about in the French Revolutionary armies.
I don't think even in ancient parades armies had much more than horns.
As for the Romans, Vegetius says (de re militari, book 2, 5th century ad):
LEGIONARY MUSIC
The music of the legion consists of trumpets, cornets and buccinae. The trumpet sounds the charge and the retreat. The cornets are used only to regulate the motions of the colors; the trumpets serve when the soldiers are ordered out to any work without the colors; but in time of action, the trumpets and cornets sound together. The classicum, which is a particular sound of the buccina or horn, is appropriated to the commander-in-chief and is used in the presence of the general, or at the execution of a soldier, as a mark of its being done by his authority. The ordinary guards and outposts are always mounted and relieved by the sound of trumpet, which also directs the motions of the soldiers on working parties and on field days. The cornets sound whenever the colors are to be struck or planted. These rules must be punctually observed in all exercises and reviews so that the soldiers may be ready to obey them in action without hesitation according to the general's orders either to charge or halt, to pursue the enemy or to retire. F or reason will convince us that what is necessary to be performed in the heat of action should constantly be practiced in the leisure of peace.
I had a quick look around and everybody seems to agree that the Roman army did not use drums.
I'm sure a comprehensive search of Livy/Plutarch/Appian etc might turn up something. However there is no need since those learned historical scholars, the Las Vegas Firefighters, state that the Roman army did in fact adopt the use of drums (and pipes) after their conquest of North Africa and Pakistan.
That seems to be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urg
The Romans - at least the early republican armies - did use their swords and shields as "drums" to unnerve the enemy while chanting warcries.
What about the Greeks?
Don't forget chanting or something else ritualistic like some crazy shaman blessing the troops and dancing. I guess that's not really music unless you count vocals.
If we're at the point where we are just talking about sounds to intimidate, there are those Pilum found in Britain with a whole punched in the iron tip. That way it mades a shrieking sound when. So multiply that by a few thousand and add in lots of screaming a few seconds later.
@Centurio - I believe they used horns mostly for command/control purposes and to keep people in steppe in the phalanx. Though knowing the greeks, I wouldn't be surprised if they devised some rather underhanded psychological warfare techniques using sound with their ample knowledge of acoustics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEIczmyxnmc
Well I talked to this Historian on Roman Army Talked and he said the Spartans had Trumpeteers, Fluteplayers and Drummers. The Trumpeteers were a Spartan clan and were Spartan so perhaps the other positions as well.
Spartan Phalanx marching with the music and the Spartans singing the Spartan Paen with the Spartans marching like the Grenadeers in perfect unison must have been intimidating.:skull:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Urg
I think flutes were very common instruments on greek/hellenistic battle scenes.
The Spartans' used flute-players to keep their phalanx in step when approaching the enemy. However, from he fact that Xenophon (or Thucydides, I am not 100% sure) felt it necessary to explain the flutes' purpose suggests, according to Hans van Wees, that this was not custom amongst other Greek armies. Off course, this is simply speculation, and things could have changed by EB's time-frame as Greek armies became more professional and disciplined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysimachos
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus
no-that is actually a feature of professional armies that began appearing in the late 17th century onwards; it started off as a means of signalling troops in the smoke and gunshot ridden battlefields of the 15-16th centuries, but quickly moved on to marching, camping, and other activities. its just that the more popular songs were from the french revolution. the british marched to their death at the monogahela in 1755 playing the british grenadiers (yeah, not exactly a wise decision). and the prussians in the seven years war played the hohenfriedberger marsch, both while marching (heck, just read the name), and on the battlefield.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkhOxFtj7Eo (hohenfriedberger marsch; written it is said, by Fredrich II himself. this version has the song with it)
I think most people know what the british grenadiers is, but here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLc-bvcdNTw
and there are a few more as well.
So, what we know is that we don't know much. Most likely they use flutes on the battlefield, but then again it's possible that they didn't. Drums were most likely not used, right?
Gunpowder era it seems it was. And there were drummers with the Spartan army and seeing the Spartans, it was probably used in battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus
much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phalanx300
drummers are mentioned in many a battle during the gunpowder era, and even into the US civil war, in the capacity of providing signalling techniques. a british manual from the 1730's-40's mentions that drummers and fifers in the companies are to be used to supplement, or even replace the colonel's orders. the regulars at lexington green were reined in by use of drummers after they broke to shoot and bayonet the local militia in 1775.
as for the ancients, I dunno.
Then I'm clearly not the only one to want to shoot them enemy drummer/fifers am I? :clown:
Drums would have been extremely helpful for phalanxes, not for giving order but to keep the pace. Nothing more important for a phalanx than the regular, synchronized pace.
Didn't the Mongols use drums in order to issue orders to their troops on the battlefield? If so, it would hardly be surprising if other Central Asian nomads used the same technique.
I'm not sure anyone here has really done the work to answer your question yet. I'm sure there are all sorts of books and journal articles about ancient music, and music in the context of warfare. I am also sure that each culture (faction) was different (music=culture, right?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus
I can't really speak about other factions, but the general response so far as the Romans are concerned is in the quote from Vegetius (above). Accepting what Vegetius says to be the general rule for Roman armies, there would no doubt be exceptions even in the Roman context.
drummers were specially arrayed, to prevent that from happening. believe it or not, it worked...at least in Europe.:clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by satalexton
I too have an interest in the music of antiquity.
If I could upload I would share some of the CD inserts in PDF format that illustrate what we know of the ancient instruments, but since I am unable to do that I will provide a few links to sites that I found interesting and from which I have gathered some of my collection.
While much of the music represented here is not specifically martial, but more ceremonial or poetic by nature, some examples most definitely seem to be of a military function.
MP3 Praecones Provinciae Britanniae - Somnia Imperii Roman Music
http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.p...iae-britanniae
Music Of Ancient Rome Vol 1 by Synaulia
http://www.emusic.com/album/Synaulia.../11083008.html
http://www.amazon.com/Synaulia-Music.../dp/B00000DMKM
Music Of Ancient Rome Vol 2 by Synaulia
http://www.emusic.com/album/Synaulia.../11078473.html
Music of the Ancient Greeks
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Ancient-...ref=pd_sim_m_2
Music of the Ancient Sumerians, Egyptians and Greeks
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Ancient-...ref=pd_sim_m_1
ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MUSIC
http://www.ancientnile.co.uk/downloads.php
Prehistoric Music Ireland
http://homepage.eircom.net/~bronzeagehorns/index.html
Regarding: Music of the Ancient Peoples
Other than a few fragments, little to no record of written music exists from most of these periods. And we don't know whether the ancient peoples actually performed much of the music as is represented here.
A handful of the oldest known fragments go back to 1950 BC whereas some early Greek compositions have survived in relatively greater numbers and the closer we get to our time, the more accurate the renditions become. From the Renaissance forward we have the most complete records of written compositions and even many of the actual musical instruments played by the "Great Masters."
As to the probable sound of very ancient music, almost nothing is known. Quite simply, a "style" has to be arrived at on the basis of reasonable assumptions and likely influences. Unavoidably therefore, some of the music presented here should only be taken as a "suggestion."
However, all ancient people had voices and expressed themselves in song and poetry in a myriad of tongues.
And thanks to the Rosetta Stone and recovered ancient manuscripts, papyrus and brick tablet fragments, we know what some of the poems, songs and lyrics in their rites amd rituals were. And we do have a good idea of the instruments themselves from mosaics, wall paintings, carvings and, in a few cases, finds. We cannot hope to know everything but it is abundantly clear that music played an important part in many areas of ancient life. Despite the inevitable speculation as to use, identification and tuning of many of these long-vanished instruments.
The kithara, pandoura, aulos, salpinx, syrinx, tympanon, Lyre, reeds, tambourines, flutes, harps, clappers, trumpets, horns, bagpipes, and a variety of percussion instruments, among others, were known and played by many of the ancients, and varients of these musical instruments have survived to this day.
The instruments played here are as authentic replicas of the ancient periods as can be deduced, so we reasonably conclude, with some speculation, that these peoples could have composed and played such music, if they had wanted to.
Each instrument has it's own distinct "voice." Hopefully the music, as represented here allows each instrument to sound in a way that suits it best, in order to create what hopefully comes across as believable (as well as musical) ancient music.
:bow: :yes: Thank you very much!! :2thumbsup: