Eastern EB?

I know this might be the wrong place to put this, but I've found the EB people to more historically intelligent about these things. I've played EB for a while now and I love the historical accuracy. Hey, I admit I've learned a few things along the way :beam:. I've always wondered what happened on the eastern side of the world (such as China, Japan, and their "barbarians") while Rome was conquering all of the known Western world.

What I'm asking is; Is there any mods that take place during EB's era but shows the progression of the Eastern countries? :smash:

I know It's not what you're acutally looking for, BUT it certainly is the answer to your question :clown:

have you checked the minimod subforum and found the Asia ton barbarorum thread? they are not finished yet but what they have looks great sofar, sadly It only features some "barbarians of the chinese" rather than the chinese or other east asian cultures.

Qin Shi Huang unified China at 221 BC, and the Han dynasty spent the years after 206 consolidating their position within the natural barriers, trying to control the Xiongnu (Leading directly to the Yuezhi incursion), and not doing much about anything else.

Japan itself was a "barbarian" faction. It was slowly getting a few Korean and Chinese poppin over the sea, but it was very much tribal.

Speaking of Korea, it was pestered by the Han, but left to their own devices on the Southern part of the peninsula.

A TW game about the Far East would be a bit boring. China would be the obvious scrappy, and would quickly overrun everyone, unless accuracy was dumped for gameplay and it was divided into colour-coded houses. And a purple senate.

Rebellions.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

A TW game about the Far East would be a bit boring. China would be the obvious scrappy, and would quickly overrun everyone, unless accuracy was dumped for gameplay and it was divided into colour-coded houses. And a purple senate.

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Isn't Rome the "obvious scrappy" in Rome: Total War and in EB? Imagine playing as the Japanese. It would be like the Gauls overcoming the Romans in both EB and RTW.

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Originally Posted by Azathoth

Rebellions.

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I don't know what you're talking about

Well, I suppose if you started during the Warring States period, there could be some decent action without swallowing up the entire map. A bit repetitive fighting essentially the same factions though.

That would be like saying all the barbarians in EB are essentially the same.

Dynasty Warriors :clown:

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Originally Posted by Kevin

That would be like saying all the barbarians in EB are essentially the same.

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Err, it would be more similar to the Aedui and Arverni. China had no real "other" culture to draw ideas from. The Northern ones never did use much nomad technology, and the only major development in warfare was the adoption of cavalry. But even then, chariots were still the norm.

270AD ish???

Chinese Three Kingdoms? Upcoming Gupta Empire? Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofun_period? Indo Scythians? Huns (before migrating to Europe)? Korean Three Kingdoms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms_of_Korea? Siberian Nomads? Southeast Asian peoples? Islander tribesmen? Manchu or Tibetan ancestors?

Have a go at those!

~Fluvius

In game terms, a campaign with China would involve fighting 3 stacks of rebels per turn.

It would be like Arche Seleukeia except without any other civilized faction at all on the map. Unless you include Baktria and India.

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Originally Posted by king of thracia

It would be like Arche Seleukeia except without any other civilized faction at all on the map. Unless you include Baktria and India.

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Korea was an independent kingdom by those times, no? And I believe the origins of the Khmer dynasty in kampuchea was active in those times, in addition to a lot of other civilisations. It would probably be one hell of a job to track any credible sources about them though, if it exists at all.

Yea, I tried checking some of the mods on the site relating to the Eastern world and many of them are either dead, or way too cartoony.

There's Three Kingdoms Total War
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=264

and I believe there was a mod in development for the Warring States period (of China)

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Originally Posted by Seneca

Korea was an independent kingdom by those times, no? And I believe the origins of the Khmer dynasty in kampuchea was active in those times, in addition to a lot of other civilisations. It would probably be one hell of a job to track any credible sources about them though, if it exists at all.

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Well you could have a diverse army and enemies. There's infantry and naval action going on in the south, the far south will have elephants (and rhinos, and crocodiles, and exotic jungle plagues), and in the north, endless steppe with nomads. Lots and lots of nomads. There are the Indo European oasis settlements in the desert west.

And yes, now that I think of it, you are right: for the longest time Korea is the only civilized state in direct contact with the Chinese, although I'm not sure how 'civilized' they were back then ;)

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Err, it would be more similar to the Aedui and Arverni. China had no real "other" culture to draw ideas from. The Northern ones never did use much nomad technology, and the only major development in warfare was the adoption of cavalry. But even then, chariots were still the norm.

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This notion is, frankly, laughable. There was as large a difference between the armies of the different Warring States as there were between the different Hellenistic kingdoms. Zhao, Yan and Zhongshan all practiced quite a different way of war from, for instance, Qin, and Chu, being such a large empire, differed from, and influenced, many others. This is also not considering "non-Chinese" groups like Ba and Shu, the Yue and Nan Yue, and the later formation of the state of Dian.

If the game were to start around 272 BC, the different factions in what is today China would be about as diverse as the EB factions of the eastern Mediterranean - that is, the basis of the armies were fairly similar to one another, but they all had enough variety to keep them very much differentiated.

I can just see a bunch of Chinese people working on a Hellenistic mod sitting around and saying "it's all just a bunch of Greeks! doesn't look like there would be much difference between them - all phalanxes and cavalry..."

Then please enlighten me. I'm working from guesswork based solely off of China's more homogeneous ethnic background.

why diss the ignorant? withou EB, many of us would still wallow in the filthy lies of the Romaioi, screaming for LS, and dressing up as Arcani ninjas for halloween.

Indeed, it's sad that there isn't an equivilant of EB set in the rich lands of Seres to enlighten us all. That three kingdoms mod is based on the historical NOVEL, not facts...and the zhanguo mod is dead from wt i heard. =[

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

I can just see a bunch of Chinese people working on a Hellenistic mod sitting around and saying "it's all just a bunch of Greeks! doesn't look like there would be much difference between them - all phalanxes and cavalry..."

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Wow, didn't know we were starting to get a bit racist here.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Well, I suppose if you started during the Warring States period, there could be some decent action without swallowing up the entire map. A bit repetitive fighting essentially the same factions though.

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Well you can't really say they are the same factions considering historically each of the states had their own language, writing system, currency, etc...and they each had different styles of fighting, different armors, weapons, etc.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Err, it would be more similar to the Aedui and Arverni. China had no real "other" culture to draw ideas from. The Northern ones never did use much nomad technology, and the only major development in warfare was the adoption of cavalry. But even then, chariots were still the norm.

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You can always include the many kingdoms in what is now known as Southern China, and many nomadic factions in what is now known as Northern China, and plenty o Greek/Persian/Indian factions to the west.

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Originally Posted by king of thracia

and I believe there was a mod in development for the Warring States period (of China)

And yes, now that I think of it, you are right: for the longest time Korea is the only civilized state in direct contact with the Chinese, although I'm not sure how 'civilized' they were back then ;)

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I'm not sure if "Korean" identity existed in that time period...

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Then please enlighten me. I'm working from guesswork based solely off of China's more homogeneous ethnic background.

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Ummm, even today China is far from homogeneous...

You have disgruntled minorities living in the west and south west, and your integrated minorities in Inner Mongolia/Manchuria/Sichuan/Yunan/much of the southern regions/etc. And they've been able to retain their distinctive culture...

Their government lists 55 minority groups (about 150-200 million people)...but the real figure is probably much higher.

Remember that "China" is roughly the size of the entire continent of Europe...and the modern boundaries and conception of "China" is the result of thousands of years of conquest and integration of vastly different people.

(ie. Thai, Cambodians, Hmong, Viet, and Austronesian people all had kingdoms in Southern China before being integrated into various Chinese Dynasties)

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Originally Posted by satalexton

why diss the ignorant? withou EB, many of us would still wallow in the filthy lies of the Romaioi, screaming for LS, and dressing up as Arcani ninjas for halloween.

Indeed, it's sad that there isn't an equivilant of EB set in the rich lands of Seres to enlighten us all. That three kingdoms mod is based on the historical NOVEL, not facts...and the zhanguo mod is dead from wt i heard. =[

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Barbar-ro! I'm still angry that EB shattered my wondrous and child-like perception of the lorica segmentata... :(

Assuming a map from Baktria to Japan your faction list in 272 would look something like this.

Baktria - A Hellenistic eatern state that historically expanded into India, which is on this map.
Saka Rauka - A Steppe faction which historically expanded into Baktria and then India
Maurya - The Empire of Chandragupta Maurya covering a large proportion of India
Satavahana - Another Indian nation (Thanks to AtB here)
Pandya - Another Indian nation (Thanks to AtB here)
Wusun and/or Xiongu - Steppe faction which would eventually push the Yuezhi into Baktria
Yuezhi - Steppe faction pushed into Saka lands and subsequently into Baktria
Chinese States:
-Qi
-Chu
-Yan
-Han
-Zhao
-Wei
-Qin
-Lu
-Yue

Yamato - A powerful Japanese tribe, their dominance was not until later but it is one of the best options for a Japanese faction
Gojoseon - Korean nation


(Khotan - did not yet exist and its foundings are semi-mythical, Dvipantara - unclear if it existed this early, unlikely)

The map could also, in theory, be extended to include a portion of central and northern South America which would allow for the inclusion of factions such as the Zapotec, Pre-Classic Maya and the Chavin.

Weren't there quite developed cultures in Southeast Asia that time?

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Originally Posted by Tanit

The map could also, in theory, be extended to include a portion of central and northern South America which would allow for the inclusion of factions such as the Zapotec, Pre-Classic Maya and the Chavin.

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... Why? There's barely enough faction slots to cover Central-to-East-to-South Asia properly and considering that the hypotheses of the contacts between East-Asian cultures and Mesoamerican cultures are speculative at best there'd be no reason to have East Asia where factions are fighting each other and then what would essentially be another campaign map depicting Mesoamerica and its warring states.

I'd rather include South Asian cultures alongside the ones you mentioned earlier in your posts. This would make more sense both historically and gameplaywise, imho.

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Wow, didn't know we were starting to get a bit racist here.

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I don't see any racism there. Meinpanzer shows the error in the argument by reversing it. Just because we don't know much about the Chinese armies of the 3rd century BC does not mean they were all alike.

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Originally Posted by Tanit

Assuming a map from Baktria to Japan your faction list in 272 would look something like this.
Baktria - A Hellenistic eatern state that historically expanded into India, which is on this map.
Saka Rauka - A Steppe faction which historically expanded into Baktria and then India
Maurya - The Empire of Chandragupta Maurya covering a large proportion of India
Satavahana - Another Indian nation (Thanks to AtB here)
Pandya - Another Indian nation (Thanks to AtB here)
Wusun and/or Xiongu - Steppe faction which would eventually push the Yuezhi into Baktria
Yuezhi - Steppe faction pushed into Saka lands and subsequently into Baktria
Chinese States:
-Qi
-Chu
-Yan
-Han
-Zhao
-Wei
-Qin
-Lu
-Yue
Yamato - A powerful Japanese tribe, their dominance was not until later but it is one of the best options for a Japanese faction
Gojoseon - Korean nation
(Khotan - did not yet exist and its foundings are semi-mythical, Dvipantara - unclear if it existed this early, unlikely)
The map could also, in theory, be extended to include a portion of central and northern South America which would allow for the inclusion of factions such as the Zapotec, Pre-Classic Maya and the Chavin.

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Also interesting would be their original names - the names they gave themselves, as opposed to the name given to them by later Chinese historians...kinda like how vanilla RTW clumps many factions as being "Gaul" just because it was the Roman term generalizing the people in modern France.