How to Employ Pikemen

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

Pikemen can be very effective offensively in vanilla, so much so that they can become unstoppable if used properly… I’ve posted a lot of this here before, but it didn't seem to change the overriding opinion that the only thing pikemen are good for is defending bridges and city gates.

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After heavy exploration and playtesting into the subject, I’ve come to the conclusion that the vast majority of Medieval 2 generals are guilty of overlooking one of the most dominant weapons of Renaissance Europe. I’m referring, of course, to the humble pike, originally developed and employed by the Macedonians (notably Alexander the Great), and which ultimately fell out of favor during the era of the Roman Imperium. Because of the manner in which pikemen were implemented in Medieval 2, many generals have pushed the pike formation into a defensive corner, preferring to reserve the offensive role of their militaries for tried-and-true heavy infantry, swordsmen, and spearmen. What these generals fail to realize (and until recently, I myself was guilty of the same crime) is that pikemen be deployed in an offensive manner with the potential to dominate the late period battlefield.

So put down your modding tools, because with a little help from a friendly General and an examination into historical tactics, I’m going to show you how to build and exploit a pike-centric army with vanilla soldiers (and hopefully, in the process, redeem my own previous, irrational scorn of medieval pike).


Pikemen and the Pike Square

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Historical Significance: Developed by the Swiss Confederacy during the 15th century, the Pike Square breathed new life into an ancient method of combat unseen since the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. As a direct descendant of the Macedonian Phalanx that conquered half the known world, the Pike Square was “rediscovered” by Swiss mercenaries in an attempt to counter the feudal status quo of cavalry-centric armies. It can be inferred, therefore, that deployment of the Swiss Pike at the Battle of Nancy in 1477 marked the transition between Feudal to Renaissance forms of armed combat, establishing pike-equipped infantry (instead of heavy cavalry) as the primary fighting arm of the European Theatre. This battlefield dominance of the resurgent pike phalanx was to last throughout much of the Renaissance, until its eventual replacement by the bayonet in the late17th century.

Battlefield Deployment: Pikemen are the most synergistically-dependent of all available unit classes, and should never be employed alone on the battlefield. Pikes achieve synergy with other, overlapping units of pikemen in double-stacked square formations (refer to my discussion of the Pike Square) or Heavy Infantry (as examined in the Tercio).

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

With their mode properly set you need to use pikes in conjunction with other units. For example, you can use dismounted knights as your front line and charge them in, then take your pikes and tell them to attack the same units your dismounted knights are fighting. They will move up and start using their pikes between the dismounted knights effectively doubling your offensive power.

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The classic pike square formation is the indirect descendant to the Macedonian Phalanx, and involves two units of pikemen, each of them three to four rows deep, operating in a combined, staggered formation.

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

3 to 4 rows is optimal. If you make the formation too deep it will get flanked easily and too shallow and infantry can break through.

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These two units of pikemen are mutually complementary, and must be employed in conjunction for the greatest benefits. It is recommended that one of these two pikemen units must consist of professional soldiers (such as the Tercio), deployed slightly in front of a unit of pike militia acting in support of the professional pikemen.

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

I'll use Scotland for example. Your strongest pikemen are in the front line with the weaker pikemen behind, so highland pikes front line and Scots pike militia in back. You don't want any pikemen fighting alone, they all must have at least a second unit of pikemen behind.

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The Pike Square is most easily employed defensively in various choke points such as city streets and bridges (where it cannot be outflanked), but Generals experienced enough to micromanage their pikemen will find flat, open terrain favors the offensive killing power of the double-stacked pike phalanx. Marching Pike Squares downhill will permit enemy units to slip under the rows of pikes, and uphill battles usually favor heavy infantry. Thus, Pike Square Generals should avoid elevated terrain whenever possible.

Tactical Usage: Professional pikemen are expected to engage the enemy first, no matter what the situation. If initially deployed to intercept charging enemies (particularly cavalry) with guard mode on, guard mode must immediately be disabled the moment the enemy make contact with the front rank of pikes. Pike militia should then be marched forward through the rear ranks to support the professional pikemen, either by issuing attack or move orders to an area directly behind the engaged enemy unit (which guarantees that the militia march through the professional pikemen into range of the enemy). Pikes, after all, have the longest close combat weapon reach in the game, and screening militia pikemen with professional pike soldiers allows the weaker militia to exploit the reach of their weapons while simultaneously avoiding enemy contact.

Generals using the Pike Square should favor light infantry, static heavy infantry, and cavalry as offensive targets for his pikemen. Pikes have a tendency to scissor their way through lightly-armored units, and heavy infantry holding a fixed position are likewise vulnerable to the awesome killing power of the double-stacked pike formation. If the enemy allows your slow-moving pikemen to come into range of his cavalry, punish him accordingly: Pikemen make logical cavalry-killers because of the combat bonuses they receive, and the pike square is flexible enough to deter cavalry charges from any direction.

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

Other advantages to this are it's impossible to rear charge the formation with cavalry. If you see them coming around you can just take one of your double stacked pikemen and tell it to attack the charging cav. That's the end of that cav, go back to fighting in the front.

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Notable Vulnerabilities: Pike Squares are ultimately vulnerable to powerful heavy infantry charges performed. Shock infantry such as the Varangian Guard and Venetian Heavy Infantry are capable of smashing into the front ranks of Pike Squares, especially when flanking from the side or rear of the formation. Heavy infantry are also capable of an anti-pike tactic known as “weapon heckling”: if heavy infantry manage to run the gauntlet of pikes and arrive within striking distance of the front ranks, pikemen closest to the threat can no longer exploit the reach of their pikes and are forced to engage with their swords (which forces pikemen to fight on the enemy’s terms). This undesirable situation can be remedied through several methods, including toggling guard mode and spear wall, or issuing halt orders to the engaged pike units:

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

There are other tricks with pikemen, like if many of your pikemen are falling out of formation and dropping their pikes, just click stop, wait a second and then tell them to attack again. This resets them and they all pull their pikes out again.

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On Pike Militia: These form the primary foundation for every pike square and are absolutely indispensible for their utility-per-florin. Pike militia are available to nine factions, including France, the Holy Roman Empire, Milan, the Papal States, Portugal, Sicily, Scotland, Spain, and Venice. Two units of pike militia can be used to form a slightly weaker variant of the pike square vulnerable to morale effects, but when supported by units like the Carroccio Standard of the Italian States, can hold their own.

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

I pretty much only play multiplayer, so cost is a big deciding factor in what units I use. With pikes I find the cheaper the better. This has several advantages, one of which being that it saves a lot of money for cavalry and other upgrades but doesn't sacrifice the quality of your troops. Elite pikes are better than pike militia of course, but if you use the double line method the difference isn't so big.

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On Cost-Effective Unique Pikemen: Consisting of professional soldiers, these are traditionally deployed directly in front of pike militia to take advantage of their superior morale and survivability.

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

So, in short, the pikemen I use and find to be cost effective are Flemmish pikemen, highland pikemen, Tericos/Lanskenckt (the same), pike militia, scots pike militia, and regular pikemen.

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On Elite Pikemen: While extremely powerful, elite pikemen such as the Aventuros carry a hefty price tag and are substitutable for the cheaper professional variants identified above. In campaign games where cost is not a factor, elite pikemen can be used to great effect, but should be considered “soldiers of luxury”.

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

I don't generally use Aventuros, Swiss pikemen, or the Armored scottish pikemen. These are in fact the best pikemen in the game, but I just don't find them to be cost effective in 10k multiplayer games

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On Spear Wall: Generally, spear wall should be switched on at all times. The exception to this rule occurs when battlefield conditions demand immediate battlefield redeployment:

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

Even though pikes walk pretty fast in spear wall, I'd switch it off if you really need to run. Sometimes if I'm charging a fortified position will switch off spearwall and run them until I'm almost on top of them and then switch it back on and attack. It's good if you want to close and not get hit by too many arrows.

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On Guard Mode: Unlike other units, toggling guard mode on and off severely changes the behavior of pikemen formations. When switched on, guard mode forces pikemen to brace in a defensive manner, primarily to intercept cavalry charges and fix enemy units in place. While pikemen in guard mode will cause little or no casualties to the enemies they pin in place, they will likewise take fewer casualties and can be used in conjunction with cavalry to perform hammer-and-anvil maneuvers, or to hold enemy units in place for a pointblank volley of gunpowder (which is discussed in the Pike-and-Shot segment of the guide).

However, be warned that pikemen in guard mode tend to draw their swords when engaged in melee combat:

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

First of all, since we're talking about their offensive usage, you'll want spear wall on and guard mode off. Guard mode is what makes them go into "brace" formation, but it also causes them to move more slowly and they pretty much drop their pikes right away in melee.

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Guard mode, therefore, should be switched off when using pikemen to engage enemy units offensively, and switched on when defense is the name of the game.

Final Notes: The Pike Square can form the core of an extremely flexible Renaissance military, capable of both offensive and defensive use against personnel and cavalry when utilized effectively. Additional variants on the pike square involve technological advancements of late period European armies, and are discussed below.
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Pike-and-Shot

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Historical Significance: Advances in gunpowder technology, when coupled with the resurgence of the pike, defined an entire Era of European warfare between the Italian Wars and the late seventeenth century. This warfare during this era was aptly-named “Pike-and-Shot”, and consisted primarily on the mutual support of tight ranks of pikemen in complement to primitive gunpowder firearms. Pike-and-Shot emerged in answer to the enormous problem of period firearms being cumbersome to use (and ultimately vulnerability to cavalry charges). Pike-and-shot formations, therefore, allowed the widespread use of matchlock (and later flintlock) firearms, with pikemen becoming absolutely essential to the survivability of gunpowder infantry.

Battlefield Deployment: Pike-and-Shot is the ranged late period alternative to the meat grinder of the pike square’s close combat phalanx discussed earlier. While not the most difficult of late period armies to deploy or utilize, the beauty of Pike-and-Shot rests in its simplicity (merely a step up from the pike square). Central to the pike-and-shot army is a unit (or several units) of pikemen deployed three ranks deep, overlapped by a three-rank deep formation of arquebusiers or musketeers. The first rank of gunpowder infantry should be directly in front of the first line of pikemen, which, as mentioned earlier, actually allows the arquebusiers or musketeers to fire point-blank into enemy units fixed in place by a pike formation in guard mode. If close combat pressure begins to take its toll, lighter-armored gunpowder units can always retreat through the ranks of pikemen to safety behind the lines.

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

I will extend them to two rows if defending a line of muskets from cavalry, but otherwise I'll go 3 to 4.

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Tactical Usage: Pike-and-shot will give any general complete superiority in whatever direction it is pointed, so it should typically be deployed at the center of your army, directed towards the strongest side of the enemy battle deployment. The ranged quality of the formation is extremely potent at putting the onus of movement on the enemy, which counteracts the slow movement quality of the pike spear wall (after all, shot forcing the enemy to come towards your pikes is a much more favorable situation than the micromanagement necessary to ponderously march pike formations across the length and breadth of a battlefield). Favor open flat terrain whenever possible: level playing fields with little or no vegetation give your gunpowder infantry unhampered fields of fire and allow your pikemen bring the awesome power of their pikes to bear.

Notable Vulnerabilities: Note that pike-and-shot is vulnerable to flanking (even more than the classic pike square). It is absolutely essential that you do not allow the central pike-and-shot formation to be flanked (either by cavalry or heavy infantry). When flanked, expect the pike-and-shot formation to collapse considerably quickly, so make sure to deploy heavy infantry or cavalry on the wings of the pike-and-shot formations (these must be used to intercept flanking threats).

On Arquebuses: Whilst the “Shot” aspect of this formation can be fulfilled by either Arquebusiers or Musketeers, the latter are considered the ideal choice for gunpowder firepower. Arquebuses have the distinct honor of exploding when fired, causing self-inflicted casualties within the ranks of their own wielders, so unless you’re the sadistic type of general, they’re not recommended. Additionally, consider that the musket outclasses the arquebus in terms of maximum range and accuracy.

That being said, pike-and-arquebus formations can be employed with some effectiveness in pike factions without access to muskets (France, the Holy Roman Empire, the Papal States, and Sicily) or in pike factions waiting for their cities to grow large enough to tech up the gunpowder tree (Milan, Portugal, Spain, and Venice). The Portuguese are exceptionally fond of this transitional formation, given their special Portuguese Arquebusier unit (which is an ‘elite’ core of Arquebusiers that do even more damage per shot than late period musketeers). But even these special Arquebuses suffer from the maximum range of their firearm, so they should be replaced (or complemented) with Muskets as soon as possible.

On Muskets: Nations without access to muskets will quickly find their pike-and-arquebus formations solidly outclassed by the pike-and-musket formations of Milan, Portugal, Spain, and Venice. These four nations are the ideal employers of pike-and-shot, because the range and accuracy of the late period musket serves as the perfect complement to the defensive close combat superiority of the pike. In addition to the standard pike militia of the four nations, the Spanish and Portuguese are blessed with the additional benefit of a professional pike unit with decent morale, killing power, and survivability (the Milanese and Venetians must support the weaker morale of their pike militia with the ponderous Carroccio Standard or risk their armies crumbling in fear). This also makes them ideal for the Tercio, which is discussed in some detail below.

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

Spain with the Tericos and pike militia is a powerful and cost effective combo too, especially when combined with musketeers.

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Final Notes: In parting, it should be noted that the Scots are the only pike-equipped faction incapable of employing pike-and-shot formations: Scotland has no gunpowder infantry capable of complementing their ranks of pikemen.

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Tercio

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Historical Significance: Developed during the Italian Wars in answer to threat of the Swiss Pike Square, El Tercio Español (or the Spanish Square) was the subset of the pike-and-shot formation that marked the transition of medieval militaries towards early modern combined-arms. Produced during the reorganization of the Spanish army into a tactical combination of modern and medieval weapons centered around armored infantry, the Tercio received a reputation of near-invincibility during the Italian Wars and the Battle of Pavia. The Tercio saw extended deployment across Europe under the control of the Habsburg Emperors of the Spanish Empire, until the ultimate obsolescence of the pike and its replacement by the bayonet.

Battlefield Deployment: Derived from the Pike-and-Shot formations discussed previously, the Spanish Square is characterized by overlapping, tightly-packed formations of professional pikemen, heavy infantry, and musketeers. This formation is staggered so the first line of musketeers is directly in front of the first line of heavy infantry, which sits directly in front of the first rank of pikemen. Given the unique tertiary composition of the Tercio, the Spanish Square is actually more flexible than the Pike-and-Shot formation at responding to immediate threats, and more balanced than the pike square from which it is originally derived.

Tactical Usage: The lightly-armored musketeers are expected to retreat into the defensive posture of the Tercio as the enemy closes, and should see as little close combat as possible to minimize unnecessary casualties. As the musketeers retreat behind the protective spear wall of the pikemen, heavy infantry must march forward to take their place in the front ranks. This specific infantry arrangement ensures that heavy infantry employed in the Spanish Square engage the enemy with pikes in support, relying on their heavy armor to prolong their survivability while the effects of the supporting pikemen’s reach are maximized. In essence, the Spanish Square is the embodiment of the ideal late-period pike-centric army: all additional tactical details that apply to the Pike-and-Shot formation likewise apply to the Tercio.

Notable Vulnerabilities: While more flexible than both of the previous pike formations discussed earlier, the Tercio’s extremely compact arrangement of infantry makes it extremely vulnerable to ranged and artillery effects (specifically gunpowder) and super-heavy cavalry (Timurids Elphants). Care should be taken when employing the Tercio against copious amounts of gunpowder artillery or elephants (or gunpowder artillery ON elephants).

On Tercio Pikemen and Aventuros: Tercio Pikemen carry the name of the Spanish Square, and serve as the posterboys for the ideal pikemen of the Tercio formation. While the damage they deal is considerable, their greatest attribute is ultimately the fact they are composed of professional soldiers: unlike pike militia, the professional nature of the Tercio’s unit composition provides it with decent morale, giving the Tercio Pikemen the ability to operate unsupported by morale-influencing banners (like the Carroccio Standard or the General). The Portuguese Aventuros are simply a slightly more expensive variant of the Tercio Pikemen and can be employed in the same manner as their Spanish counterparts. It should be noted that from a cost-benefit ratio perspective, the Tercio provides more utility per florin than the Aventuro:

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Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

To expand on this, the only pikemen that I never use are Aventuros. They cost the same as dismounted chiv knights but can't out fight them alone. It's better to take two rows of cheap pikes than one of good pikes. Also, another disadvantage of expensive pikes is you can't really use them to defend your xbows/muskets. It's not a big deal if your 150 florin pike militia are getting all shot up defending your gunners, but you're taking major damage if your 600+ florin Aventuros are getting killed just by standing behind your muskets.

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On Dismounted Conquistadores: While only available in the New World, these are unquestionably the ultimate sword-bearing Heavy Infantry in the game. Capable of carving a bloody swathe through anything they come into contact with, dismounted conquistadores are a must-have for the Spanish and Portuguese Tercio formations. Extremely resilient and reliable, expect them to bear the brunt of the casualties and perform the majority of kills in any Spanish Square, because when advancing under the shadow of well-placed pikes, dismounted conquistadores transform the pike phalanx’s meat grinder into a virtual buzzsaw. Spanish and Portuguese Tercio formations will ultimately prove most effective operating against the Aztecs due to the exlcusive availability of these Conquistadores overseas (sword and buckler men or chivalraic knights will prove a lesser alternative in the European theatre). That being said, a patient Spanish or Portuguese general can export boatloads of Dismounted Conquistadores across the Atlantic for use in the European Tercios once the New World is completely subjugated.

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On Milan and Venice: A “false Tercio” utilizing the same tactical deployment as Spain and Portugal are available to these Italian States. Slightly less mobile and resilient than the Iberian variant, the pseudo-Tercio employs pike militia instead of professional pikemen, so a Carroccio Standard should be used near the front lines to bolster the morale in the Italian Square. Venice, specifically, can employ a devastating pseudo-Tercio that relies heavily on their armor-piercing warhammer Heavy Infantry to offset the weaker combat contributions of the Venetian pike militia. (The Milanese pseudo-Tercio is slightly more traditional with its heavy infantry being a weaker variant of the dismounted conquistadores, and is overall the weakest variant of the El Tercio Español.)

Final Notes: Due to the effectiveness of Genoese Crossbowmen and the relatively uninspired Dismounted Broken Lances, Milanese generals may want to consider alternatives to their battlefield deployment than Tercio-centric armies. Venice, in turn, employs a Tercio much more dependent on their fantastic Heavy Infantry than their pikemen, so the true Tercio factions remain the Portuguese and Spanish, both of which will find the Tercio operating with surprising effectiveness during the colonization of the New World.

Acknowledgements: Many thanks go to Old Scratch, who changed my complete worldview on how to utilize pikemen, and without whom this guide would not even have existed.

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way tooo long buddy...

I think the explanation was perfect. Perhaps you could write a summary that could be read in less than 2 minutes for those with attention deficit.

I particularly appreciate your explanation of why pike formations should be powerful in the game and should dominate latter period armies. Thank you for spending so much time and effort on this problem. :thumbsup:

I shall endeavor to try your suggested tactics with my British Isles campaign pikemen although I abhor such micromanagement.

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Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Pike-and-ShotIn parting, it should be noted that the Scots are the only pike-equipped faction incapable of employing pike-and-shot formations: Scotland has no gunpowder infantry capable of complementing their ranks of pikemen.

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To clarify, Scots have no gunpowder infantry at all? That seems a bit harsh! (And here was me thinking I just hadn't got far enough along the tech tree...)

Might take some time to read, but it's worth it. Very well written; I would especially applaude the amount of historical research involved in this. Simply quite superb. :2thumbsup:

Hmmm... got some fantastic pictures to compliment your work as well. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Zild

To clarify, Scots have no gunpowder infantry at all? That seems a bit harsh! (And here was me thinking I just hadn't got far enough along the tech tree...)

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Nope, the Scots don't have any gunpowder units apart from rather primitive artillery. I'd say it's fair, I play Scotland for the spirits of Braveheart, not for their pike and shots. That's simply not Scottish.

Actually, when I play as Scots, their Noble Archers are better substitute compared to Arquebusiers, as they could still fight in melee, but well, no fear effect, except you start to packing some highlanders... Two lines of pikes, some feudal knights as cavalry, and some noble archers behind as ranged capability, it works pretty awesome, except against late game Spaniards who start sending dozens and dozens of musketters.... AAARRGGGHHHHHH...

No wonder I've never actually won any of my myriad Scotland campaigns - no gunpowder infantry, poor gunpowder artillery (apparently, although they do the job for me!), and even their most capable archers lack stakes (surprising given - or perhaps because of - Scotland's reliance on pikes) - or have I just happened to always miss the option for using stakes?!

Interestingly, the game points to a lack of heavy cavalry as their main weakness, however I find Hospitaller Knights do the job well enough...

Actually, in vanilla M2TW gunpowder troops are less effective at killing the enemy than advanced archers/crossbowmen. In a head to head pitch English longbowmen would absolutely decimate aquabusiers. Likewise Aventurier will beat musketeers. Furthermore like Cute wolf said archers/crossbowmen are also much more able to hold their ground in melee. The only real advantage gunpowder units have is that they cause fear factor among the enemey. I only use musketeers because they look cooler and are historically accurate. Elite archers and crossbowmen are much better, not to mention that gunpowder troops can't shoot over head, which would be a problem at times.

But those musketters had an insane range... even when compared to English longbows... and those Stupid AI always keep on sending Musketters after musketters when the game comes to 1300++... well, I was forced to made all cav army only to deal with them.... because everytime I sent infantry, they start to rout once they comes in the shooting range...

:furious3:

But that's why we use guns now, rather than still fought in melee... :laugh4: wait... fought in melee only if the ammo is depleted...

Nice one mate... deffo more comprehensive than my comments on the matter! (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=119340), and full credit to you for the time and effort you took over it.

The only addition I would suggest from a historical perspective is that the Scots were of course using the Pike since at least the 13th Century - most notably having mastered the pike charge used to such devastating effect at the Battle Of Stirling Bridge in 1297 and the subsequent genius of pike charges combined with mobile schiltrons in the Battle Of Bannockburn in 1314 (but it's NOT available in the game and so that's maybe why it wasn't mentioned).

I would posit that you'd have to go all the way back to Alexander The Great to see equally original tactics used, which is why the Scots achieved such jaw-dropping kill ratios against armies that theoretically should have walked over them... Stirling Bridge saw the Scots inflict around 80% casualties with just 2,500 men against a force of around 11,000 (with "minimal" Scottish losses - actual figure unknown)... Bannockburn saw casualties on both sides at around 50% but it was nevertheless a devastating win for the Scots considering they numbered around 9,000 against a force of some 25,000 English (some old accounts say the Scottish army was actually as low as 4,500, but modern historians usually say that's the number of survivors, not the initial size).

That said, it has to be stressed that the terrain around Stirling was crucial in allowing the Scottish victories (I can vouch for that, I grew up in housing built on the very site of the Battle of Stirling Bridge)... this effectively denied the English freedom of movement - could not flank and could not retreat due to the river behind them (the "River Forth" at Stirling Bridge - the "Bannock Burn" at Bannockburn) - so when the Scottish pikes pressed down on them, the numerical advantage of the English turned into a disadvantage as they crushed together, often unable to wield their weapons or to brace for defence... so on both occasions the Scots did to the English what the English had done to the French at Agincourt by forcing the battle to be fought on terrain where numerical superiority was turned into a disadvantage.

Historically, the Scots were keen to use cannon but it is true that the main infantry tactic was the Highland Charge, and so infantry generally stuck to swords, pikes and other hand-to-hand weapons. It wasn't until the English Civil War that Scottish regiments started to be formed, and without going into a lot of complicated history, the more advanced Scottish units would be more accurately considered as being under English/British control with the subsequent forming of the British Army... but that's way after Medieval and looking towards the Empire.

Aha... just realised that you're only talking about Late Medieval pike formations, not giving a history of Medieval pike formations.

Note to self... D'oh!

Uh...

1. pikemen are bugged, still, after sooooo many patches.

2. pikemen = worthless.

3. only use is to use with gunpowder, ratio 2-3... 2 gunpowder (2 ranks deep) with 3 pike units behind. This is however very inflexible and only works against the (non existant) AI.


Don't get me wrong, I applaud your effort.... It's just that, well, they are bugged, and I dont see any patch coming anytime soon.

Sure you can use them, but for the same amount of cash you can get troops who do a much better job at building up your empire.

so, A for effort...

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Uh...

1. pikemen are bugged, still, after sooooo many patches.

2. pikemen = worthless.

3. only use is to use with gunpowder, ratio 2-3... 2 gunpowder (2 ranks deep) with 3 pike units behind. This is however very inflexible and only works against the (non existant) AI.


Don't get me wrong, I applaud your effort.... It's just that, well, they are bugged, and I dont see any patch coming anytime soon.

Sure you can use them, but for the same amount of cash you can get troops who do a much better job at building up your empire.

so, A for effort...

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Clarification: Pikeman are bugged UNLESS the formation spacing is modded. They work quite well when that modification/fix is made.

I keep hearing such talk, but then I've heard people complaining about pikes being broken since RTW... What exactly is the problem?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Uh...

1. pikemen are bugged, still, after sooooo many patches.

2. pikemen = worthless.

3. only use is to use with gunpowder, ratio 2-3... 2 gunpowder (2 ranks deep) with 3 pike units behind. This is however very inflexible and only works against the (non existant) AI.


Don't get me wrong, I applaud your effort.... It's just that, well, they are bugged, and I dont see any patch coming anytime soon.

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1. If you want to get a feel how pikemen is properly used in M2TW, even without patches, try use them as static phalanx, and always keep some good spearmen / heavy infantry to defend their flank... of course, if you play Scots, you have a good option using noble pikemen in the flank as well. (notice: even works well without any formations mod, but giving denser formations sometimes help too.)

2. If you want to try them on offense, you must learn how to order them to stop everytime the enemy is about to near with you, that way, the spear-wall will be presented and your enemy impaled, that's it.

3. Inflexible? Just try to press "alt" everytime you move them, and they move in formations very nicely...:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

2. If you want to try them on offense, you must learn how to order them to stop everytime the enemy is about to near with you, that way, the spear-wall will be presented and your enemy impaled, that's it.

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Infantry don't get impaled like cavalry does. Once pikemen get engaged with other infantry they will drop their pikes and get in melee with their daggers; this place them in disadvantages and defeat is certain for weaker pike units. Pikemen definitely have their strengths, but for me I prefer armoured sergeants (and other stronger spear units) over pikemen. Personally I only use pikemen when playing as Spain or Portugal, these are the only factions able to present potent pike units (tercios and aventuros) and advanced gunpowder units (portugese arquabusier and musketeers).

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Originally Posted by Quintus.JC

Infantry don't get impaled like cavalry does. Once pikemen get engaged with other infantry they will drop their pikes and get in melee with their daggers; this place them in disadvantages and defeat is certain for weaker pike units. Pikemen definitely have their strengths, but for me I prefer armoured sergeants (and other stronger spear units) over pikemen. Personally I only use pikemen when playing as Spain or Portugal, these are the only factions able to present potent pike units (tercios and aventuros) and advanced gunpowder units (portugese arquabusier and musketeers).

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Try the plain Pike Militia vs Sergeant spearmen line (as long as they are unflanked of course)... when against infantry, they'll keep their enemies at bay for a while, and don't expect them to kill as quick as dismounted english knights of course (and for more, armoured swordsmen or any armoured heavy infantry is pikemen's bane!), but against sorts of spear militia infantry, or with stronger pikes, against most infantry, they will win through grinding with pike points... But NEVER expect them to win against dismounted English/French Knights... they are the ultimate infantry killing infantry...

Oh, I get it now... People think pikes (an anti-cavalry unit) are bugged because they aren't very good against infantry. Makes perfect sense...:rolleyes:

Seriously, I think you'll find the premise is that cavalry are too big and unwieldy to manoeuvre between the pikes, whereas smaller, nimbler infantry can get through much more easily. At close range a pike cannot be used, not to mention they may have been disarmed by their attacker, and whilst it may make more sense to continue using your pike and to rely on the peer to your rear to protect you, that sword bearing down on you make quite a compelling argument...

I enjoy reading these replies. It's pretty damn obvious some of the posters haven't bothered to read anything I've said, seeing as this guide explains how to use vanilla pikemen vs infantry and without any need to mod spacing, secondary weapons, and the like.

They (pikemen) work a heck of a lot better when the spacing is altered whether you care to do that or not. Whatever floats your boat.

I would just like to say that I found this article very enlightening and will definately try to use it next time I play as Portugal, which I otherwise regarded as a weak nation.

Keep this thread alive ppl, i heard so many arguments about how pikes suck. i read this article and the last one, i commented on the last one to get it pushed to the top. I say keep this one on the top, maybe even a stickie and we can stop hearing about how pike men suck, cant wait till i get home and try the Shot and Pike.

Yeesh the only people who think pikes are "bugged" are those who expect them to be the "be all and end all" of infantry like in RTW.

I use them quite effectively. Sure I get a lot of losses but I use them for what they were intended in one way, as the "anvil", while I use other units to actually deal the damage (either heavy cav or crossbowmen). I had very effective armies as Portugal marching across Europe with Pavise Crossbowmen, Aventuros, and (depending on the age) cannons/catapults/trebuchets. Once I got musketeers, I started fielding pike militia/musketeers instead. I haven't perfected the pike and shot formations, but that will come in time, and pike militia are still just militia.

Why do people think pike militia > even DFK's? Sheesh. I use my missile units to actually get kills. My pike militia are just fodder (with the added bonus of pinning the enemy forces). The instant the enemy makes contact, I disable guard mode, and just let them "push" forward (as pikes should do).

Side note, go up against Brussels with just your basic units and you'll find the Computer can use pikes quite effectively against infantry. I could only take down the flemish pikemen from the side or flanks, my spear militia (as HRE or France) got their asses kicked.

I pretty much always play the Darth Mod (totally awesome by the way, my fave mod by FAR) where the pike units have been modded and basically never drop their pikes so the push of pike is incredibly effective, to kill off pikemen you've got to rely on missle units and clever flanking etc - which is easy enough. . . HOWEVER,

even when I play Vanilla or other mods that use the same effects for pikemen, they are still a deadly force on the field. Yes, they will drop their pikes and are not as domineering as modded versions, they are still an incredibly useful investment and more useful in offense than most players think. I find the pike units especially usefull in attacking a settlement.

ON guard mode with spearwall, I find that the killing power just isn't there and you need more in the way of supporting units. Typically I never use my pikemen with guard mode on. I like using the cheapest pike units available rather than the expensive kind because in my view many of the things that get your pikemen killed (like crossbow bolts and expensive heavy infantry units) will do the same whether it's the cheap or expensive pikes. I'll often use the scots pike militia, and they'll be uparmored with mail and i'd have about 8 of them. I'd just keep them in 4 units in the front, and 4 units behind that, and each unit about 6 men deep, or sometimes even deeper. each unit having another unit directly behind it A - so that there is more momentum and B- nothing is going to break thru that center point. SO it isn't a wide line at all but a wrecking ball...Then all the supporting units you can imagine, I'll usually go opt for cav and sword/axe/mace + shield units, instead of putting some missile troops in there, just tends to be my preferrence to close as quick as possibly with the enemy when using pikes.

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Originally Posted by Zild

To clarify, Scots have no gunpowder infantry at all? That seems a bit harsh! (And here was me thinking I just hadn't got far enough along the tech tree...)

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same thing happened to me... and the game says their biggest disadvantage is poor cavalry and nobles prefer to fight on foot...