Louis vs. Cronos ( a historical debate)

Here are the ethical guidelines:

No racist remarks
No Godwin's Law abuse (calling the other a fascist/nazi)
All sources need qoutations
Eg: "Yada yada yada" Yada Vol.1 Page 1000, Yada
No eye bulging, underpins or any other illegal techniques
No other member shall post on this thread unless they are observing a violation of a rule or are simply cheering their favorite.
Keep yourself in the context; any posts about similar situations shall not provide precedents for the debate,they shall be viewed as independent episodes.You can't have a Kevin Bacon - 6 degrees of separation kind of argument, the usage of sensible issues such as the Palestine/Holocaust by either side constitues blood libel and must be handled accordingly.Don't try create a bigger picture, that draws attention from the other side.You can however use it in the taunting after the debate is won.The taunting still has to be in a civilised manner.

Once you had a duel invitation, you can only oblige sir.

While you would like to get your gloves off and duel with Louis in Mortal Kombat to test your intellectual might. The .Org and especially the backroom isn't really the place for you to do it.

I would highly recommend you take it to Private Message.

Thank you for the warm and honest recomandations. However it would be a shame not to provide a precedent for decent atrocity talk to the rest of the Org.I also want third parties such as Hooahguy or Prussian Iron or LittleGrizly to view the entire topic (so noone would suspect foul play, racism or worse on my behalf).I also want to demonstrate that you can still win a debate without having to jump at the other's throat or post profanities or go berserk and flip out.I want to prove that you can still win a debate in a civilised manner when all odds are against you and the other side basks in the sunlight (Loius was the Sun King, you know) and has a privilaged hard-earned status (Senior Member).

To his Excellency Emperour Tosa and his camel retainer Mithrandir:
We, who are going to be instangibbed, salute you (starts charging at random windmills on the battlefield riding a Bartixian camel with 3 humps).

Mods, Hooahguy, LittleGrizly,PrussianIron,Gawain,Mendill, Edyzmedieval,Beskar and all else please take a seat, have a coffee and enjoy.

What is the debate on?

Can't we play? At least let us know what this is about, I am sure your kung-fu is powerful but like this it's no fun at all, can we sheer from the sidelines at least.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

What is the debate on?

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I think it is fallout from the Watchtower thread, including this post.

Still, what priviliges do senior members get, never heard of such a thing

You're the Senior Member. I myself can't start the thread. Its a privilage I'm giving to you as a senior member.

que, having a ball without me, instant bye

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Still, what priviliges do senior members get, never heard of such a thing

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Nothing much.

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Nothing much.

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

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And what a clock it is

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Nothing much.r

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

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Yeah but without me anyhow, thought it was some badge of honour not exclusive acces to certain to exclusive content. I will be checking out this site but I am no longer going to be an active member.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Yeah but without me anyhow, thought it was some badge of honour not exclusive acces to certain to exclusive content. I will be checking out this site but I am no longer going to be an active member.

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To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Nothing much.

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

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The ton of cash is in Zimbabwe 1 dollar bills.

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Originally Posted by Andres

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

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The above post is a lie.

I was sure they said they got a special forum before?

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I was sure they said they got a special forum before?

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That's reserved for the Daimyos. :disguise:

So, what? The new ones don't have to clean out the camel stables now? Sheesh, kids these days.

Thank you all for the nice gathering.
We still have to wait for the Sun King to arrive.A camel stable cleaner can't start the conversation as it would be impolite and outrageous. I would wake all Mithrandir's Bartixian camels and I'll end up in camel dung up to my neck, because Martok was promoted and now gets to polish the camel's nostrils.

So we need the Frantex Monarch to open the door and post the opening reply or send the flying pigeons to my PM box as Beskar recomanded.

French porn is awful.

I guess its the cheesy music covers they use.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

French porn is awful.

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You sir have no idea what your talking about. Modern French porn is both sexy and classy. Much better than the gonzo crap that plagues anglo saxon porn.
If you think otherwise, you're a nazi and I'm going to jump on your throat. Bollox Bloxxox.

Now excuse me, but I'm going to take a seat and watch some good old po...errr this debate.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

You sir are a damned genius. Modern French porn is both hairy and pretentious. Much worse than the outstanding art that is anglo saxon porn.

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Fixed.

:balloon2:

As a senior member and subsequent moderator, I can state emphatically that I had no idea what language was being spoken. I assumed it was English, but others now assure me that the "f" term has become a human universal. I thank American film for this. On the other hand, at least the SM sack o' p0rn only involved humans. As to what those AM-types peruse.....I shudder.

I have it from very reliable sources that STFS is a world class connoisseur and foremost expert of the bovine variety.

Time to get this debate going. Thank you for all your contributions so far, but I wish to remind all you fine gentlemen that the topic is 'outrageous national slurs and vile provocations', and it is these that need to be discussed.

In that light, certainly the most contemptible and vilanous slur ever issued on the .org, is that 'Modern French porn is both hairy and pretentious'. Tsk. I must insist it isn't pretentious in the least.

~~-~~-~~-o0O0o-~~-~~-~~

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Originally Posted by Andres

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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'Romania in WWII was a fascist state. A staunch ally of Nazi Germany. Romania murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews, Gypsies and other minorities of its own accord.'

:yes:


This truth is only slowly being accepted in Romania, where anti-Semitism is still rife. Nationalist narratives dating from WWII, and to a large extent, predating that, are still common, even if democratic Romania has since 2002-2004* slowly accepted its historical role in WWII.

*Not in the least bit owing to pressure from the EU, during negotiations over Romania's membership from 2007. No membership for holocaust denying states. Democracy and respect for human rights from Belfast to Bucharest. :knight:

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For those who would like to read up a bit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania...g_World_War_II


Very good is the following account from 1991, giving some historical context about Romania's 'Holocaust Deflection'. (Not a typo for 'denial')

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Romanians Are Told of Nation's Role in Mass Killing of Jews

By HENRY KAMM,

Published: Tuesday, July 2, 1991



For the first time, half a century after the event, the enormity of the killing of more than half of Romania's 750,000 Jews by Germans, Hungarians and Romanians was told today for all Romanians to hear -- their memory mourned by the Government and a monument unveiled to their martyrdom.

Many of the speakers, particularly Elie Wiesel, the Nobel Peace Prize winner, who was born in Romania and is the sole survivor in his family, used the occasion to warn against the current rebirth of anti-Semitism.

This sentiment, together with a broad range of extreme nationalist views, is finding many outlets in the country's newly free press and is usually met with only embarrassed silence by those who dislike it.

Until now, Romanians have been told by their Communist governments that Germany and Hungary, with the help of some Romanian "fascists," had killed hundreds of thousands of Romanians, including Jews. The fate of Romania's Jews, killed because they were Jews, was never acknowledged, although few other Romanian civilians died except in acts of war.

The facts, widely known elsewhere, were never acknowledged here: that a great number of Jewish men, women and children were killed in pogroms of a brutality that sometimes shocked even the Germans, pogroms carried out by the Romanian military and the police. Or, the Jews worked, starved or froze to death in concentration camps established and run by Romania.

As a result, many Romanians have professed unawareness that the killing of the Jews was also a Romanian matter.

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http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/02/wo...g-of-jews.html

Quite long, but good, is 'Pippidi, the Pogrom that Never Happened', in: http://web.ceu.hu/jewishstudies/yearbook02.htm


Both very brief and very enlightening is the following:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Romania
For many decades Romania, under the communist regime as well as later, denied or greatly downplayed its role in the Holocaust.[14] There were about eight hundred thousand Jews in prewar Romania, almost 5 percent of the general population. About half of the Jewish population was murdered in the Holocaust. As Romanian-born historian Radu Ioanid explained:

World War II transformed what might otherwise have remained a period of severe anti-Semitic outbreaks into a true Romanian Holocaust that, while part of the broader German-European Holocaust, remained at the same time a specifically Romanian story. As in Germany, the immediate background to Romania's Holocaust tapped archaic anti-Semitic traditions and was crafted by militant agitation of anti-Semitic parties, itself followed by State legislation and then compounded by wartime circumstances. Bloody mob violence was the result, but now drawing in government elements, the riots took on the character of a social enterprise and thus invited takeover by the State.
This transition phase, when mass robbery and mass murder evolved from a societal to a governmental enterprise, took place in the months immediately preceding and immediately following Romania's entrance into the war. The tempering of the Romanian-German diplomatic alliance into one of wartime fraternity augured more deliberate and more systematic ill for Romania's Jews. Finally, during this time, the Antonescu regime became more directly involved in encouraging the violence, though still more in the sense of indirect inspiration. Soon, however, it would openly take things over.[15]

One typical example of an atrocity in which Romania's Legionnaires were heavily involved was the pogrom in Iasi in June 1941. This pogrom was undertaken by a combination of the local authorities, the Romanian army, the Legionnaires, as well as the SS. The number of Jews who were killed was estimated at eight to twelve thousand. Another almost three thousand died of thirst or asphyxiation while traveling for days in sealed cattle cars of trains. For decades communist historians blamed the pogrom largely on the German SS and reduced the number of victims.[16]
#

Questioning the Holocaust
In mid-2001, a symposium was held in Bucharest that had the questionable title "Has There Been a Holocaust in Romania?" Its final resolution stated that Jews had "suffered almost everywhere in the Europe of those years, but not in Romania [sic!]," and it added that "the testimony of trustworthy Jews" demonstrates that "the Romanian people had in those years a behavior honoring the human dignity [sic!]."[17]
When asked in 2003 to clarify a Romanian government declaration that "within the borders of Romania between 1940 and 1945 there was no Holocaust," then-Romanian president Ion Iliescu asserted: "The Holocaust was not unique to the Jewish population in Europe. Many others, including Poles, died in the same way.... Jews and Communists were treated equally.... However it is impossible to accuse the Romanian people and the Romanian society of this [massacre of Jews]."[18]
The deflection process in Romania was undermined when the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania, chaired by Elie Wiesel, released a report in November 2004 that unequivocally points to Romanian culpability. It declares: "Of all the allies of Nazi Germany, Romania bears responsibility for the deaths of more Jews than any country other than Germany itself."[19] The report recognizes the isolated examples of Romanian individuals and institutions who have struggled to correct the record, and whose influence on the general population had been marginal thus far.
Laurence Weinbaum writes:

Iliescu praised the commission's findings and was himself praised in Jewish circles for convening it and accepting the results. However, in one of his last acts as president, he conferred the state's prize for Faithful Service on Holocaust-denier [Gheorghe] Buzatu. He also awarded the state's highest decoration, the Order of the Star of Romania, to Corneliu Vadim Tudor, the [far-Right party] Romania Mare leader long known for his virulent anti-Semitism. It was a fitting end to the Iliescu regime, one that epitomized its clumsy attempts to comply with international pressure while pandering to Romanian nationalist sentiment seemingly oblivious to the evident contradictions in such a policy.[20]

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http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/S...d_Whitewashing

An excellent and brief account in English of a Romanian point of view, highlighting that history is complex, and one must be aware of simplifications:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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In Romania, Anti-Semitism Stirs Passions
Published: Monday, July 29, 1991

To the Editor:
"Romania's Dirty Secrets" (editorial, July 5) and news articles July 1 and 2 indicate an attempt to depict the Romanian people as anti-Semites, guilty of indiscriminate mass killing of Jews, and to take out of context the tragic events that occurred during World War II in Romania.

As one who lived through and witnessed these events, I believe you ignore relevant facts and serve the propaganda initiated by supporters of the former Communist regime in Romania intended to distract attention from the true problems Romania confronts now that the Ceausescus are gone.
You fail to mention that by the end of World War II Romania had a community of more than 500,000 Jews, the largest Jewish community in Eastern Europe. That this community was able to survive and did not share the fate of other European Jewish communities is due in large part to the strong opposition of Marshal Ion Antonescu, who led the country during this period, to the irresistible pressure by Hitler and his accomplices to have all Romanian Jews deported to Nazi concentration camps. There are undisputed documents to show Marshal Antonescu's opposition and refusals to comply with Nazi requests for such deportations.

One cannot ignore or deny that Jews were killed or persecuted in Romania during World War II. However, your reports mix up the atrocities against Jews in North Transylvania, occupied in World War II by the fascist regime of Hungary, which were committed by the gendarmerie of Adm. Nicholas Horthy and SS German police, with the killings by German troops in Bessarabia and Bukovina and with atrocities against Jews by Romanian fascists and extremists in Romania.
This is not to say that such deplorable atrocities did not take place in Romania, but the figures you report are highly exaggerated and unsupported by evidence.

The allegation that Marshal Antonescu ordered pogroms and deportations to death camps that took the lives of at least 250,000 Jews was not even imputed during his war-criminal show trial organized by the Communists. Marshal Antonescu's indictment contained only two charges regarding orders to kill and deport Jews, which encompassed no more than 3,000 lives. This is not to say that such killings were in any way legitimate, but to deplore such acts.

Marshal Antonescu had no choice but to become an ally of Nazi Germany after he saw the Western democracies betray Poland and Czechoslovakia. Restoring this historical context may explain but surely not justify all of Marshal Antonescu's acts.

The journalists who once touted Nicolae Ceausescu and now claim a pure ethnic Romania are not only a small minority of the Romanian news media and population but also agents of the former Romanian secret police, the Securitate, who are still the promoters of propaganda and disinformation intended to divide the Romanian nation and promote their political interests. They don't represent even an isolated segment of Romanian public opinion. Romanians have long lived with Jews and other minorities sharing the same aspirations for freedom and rejecting ideologies of hatred. ANDREI BARDESCU Long Island City, Queens, July 9, 1991 The writer is director of Epoca, a Romanian magazine published in New York.

A version of this letter appeared in print on Monday, July 29, 1991, on section A page 14 of the New York edition.

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http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/29/op...ns-572291.html

they prefer the term steers.

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Originally Posted by Andres

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

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Thats because you arent part of the Exclusive Senior Members club. Thats where we moved everything to.

Or are you *goes to check*

Turns out you are.

Thats where everything is!

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Originally Posted by Whacker

I have it from very reliable sources that STFS is a world class connoisseur and foremost expert of the bovine variety.

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I prefer longhorns IYKWIMAITYD

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

In that light, certainly the most contemptible and vilanous slur ever issued on the .org, is that 'Modern French porn is both hairy and pretentious'. Tsk. I must insist it isn't pretentious in the least.

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My dear friend, everything French is pretentious to the extreme. Being French precludes you from understanding, much less acknowledging this. It doesn't matter, we all still love you as you are.

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Originally Posted by Andres

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

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I'd like the TWC PM box size (1 million messages). I currently have just under 8000.