Louis vs. Cronos ( a historical debate)

[Fragony]

Still, what priviliges do senior members get, never heard of such a thing

You're the Senior Member. I myself can't start the thread. Its a privilage I'm giving to you as a senior member.

que, having a ball without me, instant bye

[Banquo's Ghost]

Still, what priviliges do senior members get, never heard of such a thing

Nothing much.

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

[Strike For The South]

Nothing much.

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

And what a clock it is

[Fragony]

Nothing much.r

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

Yeah but without me anyhow, thought it was some badge of honour not exclusive acces to certain to exclusive content. I will be checking out this site but I am no longer going to be an active member.

[Andres]

Yeah but without me anyhow, thought it was some badge of honour not exclusive acces to certain to exclusive content. I will be checking out this site but I am no longer going to be an active member.

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

[Strike For The South]

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

The above post is a lie.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I was sure they said they got a special forum before?

[InsaneApache]

I was sure they said they got a special forum before?

That's reserved for the Daimyos.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Time to get this debate going. Thank you for all your contributions so far, but I wish to remind all you fine gentlemen that the topic is 'outrageous national slurs and vile provocations', and it is these that need to be discussed.

In that light, certainly the most contemptible and vilanous slur ever issued on the .org, is that 'Modern French porn is both hairy and pretentious'. Tsk. I must insist it isn't pretentious in the least.

~~-~~-~~-o0O0o-~~-~~-~~

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

[Louis VI the Fat]

~~-~~-~~-o0O0o-~~-~~-~~

'Romania in WWII was a fascist state. A staunch ally of Nazi Germany. Romania murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews, Gypsies and other minorities of its own accord.'




This truth is only slowly being accepted in Romania, where anti-Semitism is still rife. Nationalist narratives dating from WWII, and to a large extent, predating that, are still common, even if democratic Romania has since 2002-2004* slowly accepted its historical role in WWII.

*Not in the least bit owing to pressure from the EU, during negotiations over Romania's membership from 2007. No membership for holocaust denying states. Democracy and respect for human rights from Belfast to Bucharest.

~~-~~-~~-o0O0o-~~-~~-~~

For those who would like to read up a bit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania...g_World_War_II


Very good is the following account from 1991, giving some historical context about Romania's 'Holocaust Deflection'. (Not a typo for 'denial')

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Romanians Are Told of Nation's Role in Mass Killing of Jews

By HENRY KAMM,

Published: Tuesday, July 2, 1991



For the first time, half a century after the event, the enormity of the killing of more than half of Romania's 750,000 Jews by Germans, Hungarians and Romanians was told today for all Romanians to hear -- their memory mourned by the Government and a monument unveiled to their martyrdom.

Many of the speakers, particularly Elie Wiesel, the Nobel Peace Prize winner, who was born in Romania and is the sole survivor in his family, used the occasion to warn against the current rebirth of anti-Semitism.

This sentiment, together with a broad range of extreme nationalist views, is finding many outlets in the country's newly free press and is usually met with only embarrassed silence by those who dislike it.

Until now, Romanians have been told by their Communist governments that Germany and Hungary, with the help of some Romanian "fascists," had killed hundreds of thousands of Romanians, including Jews. The fate of Romania's Jews, killed because they were Jews, was never acknowledged, although few other Romanian civilians died except in acts of war.

The facts, widely known elsewhere, were never acknowledged here: that a great number of Jewish men, women and children were killed in pogroms of a brutality that sometimes shocked even the Germans, pogroms carried out by the Romanian military and the police. Or, the Jews worked, starved or froze to death in concentration camps established and run by Romania.

As a result, many Romanians have professed unawareness that the killing of the Jews was also a Romanian matter.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/02/wo...g-of-jews.html

Quite long, but good, is 'Pippidi, the Pogrom that Never Happened', in: http://web.ceu.hu/jewishstudies/yearbook02.htm


Both very brief and very enlightening is the following:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Romania
For many decades Romania, under the communist regime as well as later, denied or greatly downplayed its role in the Holocaust.[14] There were about eight hundred thousand Jews in prewar Romania, almost 5 percent of the general population. About half of the Jewish population was murdered in the Holocaust. As Romanian-born historian Radu Ioanid explained:

World War II transformed what might otherwise have remained a period of severe anti-Semitic outbreaks into a true Romanian Holocaust that, while part of the broader German-European Holocaust, remained at the same time a specifically Romanian story. As in Germany, the immediate background to Romania's Holocaust tapped archaic anti-Semitic traditions and was crafted by militant agitation of anti-Semitic parties, itself followed by State legislation and then compounded by wartime circumstances. Bloody mob violence was the result, but now drawing in government elements, the riots took on the character of a social enterprise and thus invited takeover by the State.
This transition phase, when mass robbery and mass murder evolved from a societal to a governmental enterprise, took place in the months immediately preceding and immediately following Romania's entrance into the war. The tempering of the Romanian-German diplomatic alliance into one of wartime fraternity augured more deliberate and more systematic ill for Romania's Jews. Finally, during this time, the Antonescu regime became more directly involved in encouraging the violence, though still more in the sense of indirect inspiration. Soon, however, it would openly take things over.[15]

One typical example of an atrocity in which Romania's Legionnaires were heavily involved was the pogrom in Iasi in June 1941. This pogrom was undertaken by a combination of the local authorities, the Romanian army, the Legionnaires, as well as the SS. The number of Jews who were killed was estimated at eight to twelve thousand. Another almost three thousand died of thirst or asphyxiation while traveling for days in sealed cattle cars of trains. For decades communist historians blamed the pogrom largely on the German SS and reduced the number of victims.[16]
#

Questioning the Holocaust
In mid-2001, a symposium was held in Bucharest that had the questionable title "Has There Been a Holocaust in Romania?" Its final resolution stated that Jews had "suffered almost everywhere in the Europe of those years, but not in Romania [sic!]," and it added that "the testimony of trustworthy Jews" demonstrates that "the Romanian people had in those years a behavior honoring the human dignity [sic!]."[17]
When asked in 2003 to clarify a Romanian government declaration that "within the borders of Romania between 1940 and 1945 there was no Holocaust," then-Romanian president Ion Iliescu asserted: "The Holocaust was not unique to the Jewish population in Europe. Many others, including Poles, died in the same way.... Jews and Communists were treated equally.... However it is impossible to accuse the Romanian people and the Romanian society of this [massacre of Jews]."[18]
The deflection process in Romania was undermined when the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania, chaired by Elie Wiesel, released a report in November 2004 that unequivocally points to Romanian culpability. It declares: "Of all the allies of Nazi Germany, Romania bears responsibility for the deaths of more Jews than any country other than Germany itself."[19] The report recognizes the isolated examples of Romanian individuals and institutions who have struggled to correct the record, and whose influence on the general population had been marginal thus far.
Laurence Weinbaum writes:

Iliescu praised the commission's findings and was himself praised in Jewish circles for convening it and accepting the results. However, in one of his last acts as president, he conferred the state's prize for Faithful Service on Holocaust-denier [Gheorghe] Buzatu. He also awarded the state's highest decoration, the Order of the Star of Romania, to Corneliu Vadim Tudor, the [far-Right party] Romania Mare leader long known for his virulent anti-Semitism. It was a fitting end to the Iliescu regime, one that epitomized its clumsy attempts to comply with international pressure while pandering to Romanian nationalist sentiment seemingly oblivious to the evident contradictions in such a policy.[20]

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/S...d_Whitewashing

An excellent and brief account in English of a Romanian point of view, highlighting that history is complex, and one must be aware of simplifications:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In Romania, Anti-Semitism Stirs Passions
Published: Monday, July 29, 1991

To the Editor:
"Romania's Dirty Secrets" (editorial, July 5) and news articles July 1 and 2 indicate an attempt to depict the Romanian people as anti-Semites, guilty of indiscriminate mass killing of Jews, and to take out of context the tragic events that occurred during World War II in Romania.

As one who lived through and witnessed these events, I believe you ignore relevant facts and serve the propaganda initiated by supporters of the former Communist regime in Romania intended to distract attention from the true problems Romania confronts now that the Ceausescus are gone.
You fail to mention that by the end of World War II Romania had a community of more than 500,000 Jews, the largest Jewish community in Eastern Europe. That this community was able to survive and did not share the fate of other European Jewish communities is due in large part to the strong opposition of Marshal Ion Antonescu, who led the country during this period, to the irresistible pressure by Hitler and his accomplices to have all Romanian Jews deported to Nazi concentration camps. There are undisputed documents to show Marshal Antonescu's opposition and refusals to comply with Nazi requests for such deportations.

One cannot ignore or deny that Jews were killed or persecuted in Romania during World War II. However, your reports mix up the atrocities against Jews in North Transylvania, occupied in World War II by the fascist regime of Hungary, which were committed by the gendarmerie of Adm. Nicholas Horthy and SS German police, with the killings by German troops in Bessarabia and Bukovina and with atrocities against Jews by Romanian fascists and extremists in Romania.
This is not to say that such deplorable atrocities did not take place in Romania, but the figures you report are highly exaggerated and unsupported by evidence.

The allegation that Marshal Antonescu ordered pogroms and deportations to death camps that took the lives of at least 250,000 Jews was not even imputed during his war-criminal show trial organized by the Communists. Marshal Antonescu's indictment contained only two charges regarding orders to kill and deport Jews, which encompassed no more than 3,000 lives. This is not to say that such killings were in any way legitimate, but to deplore such acts.

Marshal Antonescu had no choice but to become an ally of Nazi Germany after he saw the Western democracies betray Poland and Czechoslovakia. Restoring this historical context may explain but surely not justify all of Marshal Antonescu's acts.

The journalists who once touted Nicolae Ceausescu and now claim a pure ethnic Romania are not only a small minority of the Romanian news media and population but also agents of the former Romanian secret police, the Securitate, who are still the promoters of propaganda and disinformation intended to divide the Romanian nation and promote their political interests. They don't represent even an isolated segment of Romanian public opinion. Romanians have long lived with Jews and other minorities sharing the same aspirations for freedom and rejecting ideologies of hatred. ANDREI BARDESCU Long Island City, Queens, July 9, 1991 The writer is director of Epoca, a Romanian magazine published in New York.

A version of this letter appeared in print on Monday, July 29, 1991, on section A page 14 of the New York edition.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/29/op...ns-572291.html

[Whacker]

In that light, certainly the most contemptible and vilanous slur ever issued on the .org, is that 'Modern French porn is both hairy and pretentious'. Tsk. I must insist it isn't pretentious in the least.

My dear friend, everything French is pretentious to the extreme. Being French precludes you from understanding, much less acknowledging this. It doesn't matter, we all still love you as you are.

[pevergreen]

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

Thats because you arent part of the Exclusive Senior Members club. Thats where we moved everything to.

Or are you *goes to check*

Turns out you are.

Thats where everything is!

[Pannonian]

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

I'd like the TWC PM box size (1 million messages). I currently have just under 8000.

[Cronos Impera]

Dear Sun King, thank you for your courage. It proves so far that you truely are Frantex.

Dear Jury, I'm not going to start my plea by denying the 180.000 death toll issued by Hillberg for the Bessarabian Askhenazi (I'm not going to use "Jew" as a term to catalogue the minority in question as it names a different tribe called "Judah". The correct term for the Yiddish speakers is Askhenazi and the geographical determination is crittical in establishing the facts). Despite claims of putting the problem in the wider context of the Holocaust, this argument tries to keep the problem in its rightful context (N.Moldova).I'm not going to adress the Palestine issue, the Biblical Wars issues, the conduct of other Mosaics <<the term used to designate the follwers of Moses and Talmud just like Mahomedan/Christian/Buddhist designate a religious group and not a racial/ethnical one. As history of the Mozaic cult has shown the follwers of Moses vary in ethnicity (Ethiopians, Askhenazi,Sephardic, Samaritans),language (Yiddish,Aramaic,Hebrew,Poeni) and traditions (Samaritans/Orthodox/Modern/Reformate) not to mention different experiences>> in other parts of the world.The problem deals with a population and not a ethnicity/race/religon.

Here's my side of the coin so to speak.

The story begins in 1848. Back then many Moldovan nobles (or boyars) ware studying in France.Many such students ware embroiled in the Revolution either in France and/or Moldova.Investing money to oast the old guard (Byzantine-influenced boyars) they brought Napoleonic ideals back home.
In the Islaz Proclamation they announced the liberalisation of trade (no longer restricted to guilds), finances (everyone could issue credits) and freed the serfs.

However certain complications prevented the ideals to be realised.Firstly the private banking trusts developed before the National Bank. Thus control over the sprawling credit system could not be done in an effective way. The trusts would be more powerfull than the National Bank which was little more than a public safe. Those intrests ware invested in estates (there ware little industries developed during that period) as the rural gentry moved to the cities, Moldovan Askhenazi moved in the rural villas where thay continued to block the land reforms started during the 1948 revolution (what person wouldn't try to protect his investments).

In 1907 Romania was among the last European states with serfs.The serfs, supported by Tzarist commisars, began to rebel against the rural upper class (a good portion of it was Moldovan Askhenazi) and landlords ware lynched. The army was the traditional ally of the Moldovan Askhenazi and the oppresion which followed shoock the nation (350 pesants ware shot by firing squads).Grown with a Askhenazi step-mother, the future Conducator Ion Antonescu was reported to have killed 35 pesants.

As Hooahguy may confirm, Mosaic funeral rites are somewhat touchy when it comes to allowing the body to be used for medical study.It was so touchy to the Askhenazi studying at Jessy Medical (Iasi in Romanian) Collage would not donate a proportionate number of bodies to the morgue.Thus fascism was born, as Romanian students ware appaled by the privilaged status of the Askhenazi community.Just like a religious comunity would do business without paying taxes (that is simply unacceptable from any moral point of view). The fascists led by comrades Mota,Marin and Corneliu Zelea Codreanu and other leading students had the Askhenazi students removed from the Medical College.

In 1918 Max Goldstein and Anna Robinsohn (http://www.spp.ro/docatro.htm) payed by Zinoviev plants a bomb in the Romanian Parliment killing a few soldiers, a bishop, wounding the ministry of Justice.This was a terorist act against a democraticly elected parliment which included delegates from all minorites. This resulted in the banning of the Communist Party which was responsible for the attack.Nearly all the leading members ware Askhenazi (Anna Robinshon, Col. Moscovich, Moises Haupt...and we could fill the whole list and find but 3-4 Romanians).Banning the Communist Party recieved a negative feedback from the Moldovan Askhenazi (Anna Robinsohn was the daughter of a rabbi and a Hebrew scholar).Many leading comunists ware sent to prisons where they suffered the rigors of justice (such as Jilava).Those communists planned not immigratio

However the treatment was equal for Romanian-born hatemongers. Corneliu Zelea Codreanu and the fascist elite ware executed at Tancabesti.Again Romania treated its terrorists equally and anti-semites ware gunned down with the same speed as Askhenazi criminals.Despite the banning of the Communist Party the Askhenazi still had their minority party and a couple of powerful institutions (The Lauder School, the Jewish Theater) recieved the same benefits as other members of the population. Despite a fascist victory in the 1933 elections, the other parties prefered to have the adulterer back (Charles III) than a fascist majority.

That all changed in 23 August 1940.Then, the Romanian army was given orders to retreat from N.Bokovina and Bessarabia without retaliation."The Jewish population <<not communists>> treated the retreating Romanians in such an (awfull) way that they will regret dearly a year later.Things that should not have happened..." Nicholas M. Nagy–Talavera in "The Green Shirts and the Others", Hoover Institutions Press, Standfort, California, 1970, p. 305

At 6 july 1940, the casualties sustained by the Romanian Army (which was given orders to holster their weapons to avoid open war) ware as it follows: killed, wounded or missing 356 officers and 42876 soldiers.

Try a blood libel argument and I'll make sure to post details for about 30-40 atrocities commited by the Akhenazi but here are some exerpts.
All Romanian administration was exterminated (mayors, praefects) and replaced with Askhenazi who hailed the invading Soviet Army with roses and red flags. All Romanian flags ware burned, soldiers' families ware taken hostage, orthodox priests ware exectued in horrific ways, Moldovan Romanians ware hunted down for sport. Fellons ware released from prison, armed and sent to rampage, childern found at the Kisinev hospital ware thrown from hospital windows, their nurses shot to the ground.The assasins ware Askhenazi lawyers, traders and merchants.

"Even Jewish children, some of them emrolled in the "Scouts", ware waiting in the stations for the refugee convoys throwing stones at them or spilling profanities" Alex.- Mihai Stoenescu, Armata, maresalul si evreii, RAO International Publishing Company, 1998

"We've been accepting Askhenazi domination and takeovers for many decades and the Askhenazi take their revenge against us in the most difficult times of our people.And from nowhere else [inside their community] we find a public outcry for the actions of their bloodthirsty gangs.The madness that was staged against us has spread throught cities, towns and villages.Our brothers leave their sick children behind, their aging parents,their hard earned property.In their grief they needed a kind word,if only for a sentimental comfort. They ware served with bullets, they ware butchered with axes, many of them ware killed.All their belongings ware stolen, than they ware subjected to a mean and degrading treatment.This Romanian population,if only out of foolish kindness towards its guests, deserves a better treatment from the Askhenazi who untill yesturady ware bolstering of their warm and humanly love towards our nation in peril. (Why so much hate? Neamul Romanesc, 6 july 1940).


Even Nicoalae Iorga, a philo-semitic and witness in the Fascist trials was forced to admit the Askhenazi atrocites. He was exectued later during the year as vengence for the Codreanu trials.

Death toll:
300000 deportees
15000 Romanian civilians killed for the Odessa progrom at Saratov
200000 Romanians killed in 1947-1948



When the Romanian Army reocupied its former holdings, 180000 Bessarabian Askhenazi ware killed, wounded or missing. Many of those ware innocents left behind by the war criminals (brothers, sisters, children,elders,sionists).The Iron Guard and Army took vengance on this innocent group.

When the tide turned again 180000 Romanian soldiers ware sent to Siberian death camps.

Anna Robinshon, Nahum Grisa & co. ware responsible for the death of 80.000 inmates in Gulags during 1948-1952. Anna Robinshon also gave to the Soviets Achilles' Isle and some islands in the Danube Delta.
Silviu Brucan, ran the Scanteia newspaper.He and Petre Roman ordered the execution of Ceausescu ON CHRISTMAS EVE. Now Romanian Christmas is ruined.
Petre Roman, son of Walter Roman ruined as prime minister the economy: my parents ware unemployed for 2 years as their factories ware ruined.

Should I mention all Askhenazi who on my people and let it to rot? Should I protest about French refusal to acknowledge Paulescu as the true inventor of insuline just because he wrote some anti-semitic articles? Even the Askhenazi aknowledge he treated all patients equally.But France still won't reward a "subhuman fascist hatemonger"




I thank God my Polish grandfather managed to flee to Romania, some Wurmbrand (a Askhenazi converted to Christianity) stepped in front of the American Congress on behalf of the Romanian people against his kind who ruled Romania, that another convert founded a Christian library in which Romanian literature survived, that a Romanian mayor protected the innocents against his own kind, that the madness stopped in N.Moldova (intact Askhneazi communites still remain in the south as well as their theaters, schools and synagogues), that when the madness was about to grip the rest Antonescu punished the culprits with bullets and exile (the Legionary rebellion), that up to this day I can still view "Tache (Romanian),Yanche(Askhenazi) and Cadar(Muslim)" and still have a good time.



A simplification of the background would be as it follows.

Rubicon Mafia Rules apply so Mafia A can win if it eliminates town B and mafia B, while the townies can win if they eliminate both mafias (unless one townie is Sasaki this remains little more than a pipe-dream).

Dayphase: means war tribunals
Nightphase: means atrocity
Town means community
Mafia means warcriminals
Bandwaggons means bandwaggons (they will cheer for any charismatic poster)
Inactive players means innocents
Active players means Town leaders which are not Mafia


Town A
Town B
Mafia A
Mafia B

Night phase 1:

The first night phase has the Mafia A argue with the Town A over their VC. Mafia B has its first succes as Mafia A chose to kill from Town A.

Day phase 1:
The FoS of a popular don gets Town B agitated. Don uses her secret ability to appear innocent to her town.Townies from A and B become suspicious of their neighbours.
Active townies in Town B chose the first VC, while active townies in Town A chose the second.

Night phase 2:
The Mafia A retaliates against a few pro-town townies. Some townies had protection and the killers get neutralised. The don A himself gets eliminated.Meanwhile Mafia B uses the PM secret power to convert a few townies from town A.

Day phase 3:
Mafia A surivives by promoting some members. No FoS this day.

Night phase 3:
Mafia B kills the most active players from Town A and bullies others into inactivity.Mafia A punishes the active players from Town A which opted for a pro-town victory.

Day phase 4:
Both towns are inactive.But bandwaggons from Town B are eager to read the synopsis.

Night phase 5:
Mafia A retaliates by killing random targets from town B, mostly inactive players and some bandwaggons. Bandwaggons from Town A as well as some active players celebrate imminent victory.

Day phase 5:

The Mafia A gets WOG'ed.Partial town B victory conditions.

Night phase 6:

Mafia B eliminates the remaining Town B active players as well as many inactive ones.As town B was smaller than town A and many surviving town B players retired, all that remained in the game ware Mafia B and Town A (mostly inactive bandwaggons). Mafia B cleans its PM box and retires.

Official Result: Town Victory
Unofficial Result: Mafia B Victory

And Town A must deny Mafia B ever existed, and that there was only one town and that they ware guilty for lynching townies instead of Mafia.

I'm not going to deny the Antonescian terror, I'm not going to ignore the Askhenazi atrocities either.While monuments upon monuments ware built for Town A not a single brick was layed for Town B. The day of infamy (23 August) became a national holiday, entire communites ware erased, forced to pay compensations for the Askhenazi while the Askhenazi thenselves never payed a single penny in compensation.

Don't try to draw me into a Holocaust/Palestine debate Louis, you'll only have a nothingain which isn't good neither for you or for Hooahguy who you are trying to impress.

All animals are equal and humans are just animals.
"Do not do upon your neighbour what would be harmfull to you.That is all the Torah,the rest is only comment." Babylonian Talmud writer

There is no reason why some breaths would be more valuable than others in front of God.I'm not asking for a casualty historical compensation like in accounting

"Askhenazi victims" = "Romanian victims" x dead

I've worked with civilised Askhenazi who failed to mention even once a Romanian atrocity to me while we ware researching together.I fail to see why should I mention a Askhenazi atrocity to a Askhenazi who collaborates with me. But I will not hide it from a senior flamer who seeks only to pour salt into unhealed wounds just to feal good.

If side A and B can now cooperate peacefully and recover the balance why disturb it with self-righteous statements?

[pevergreen]

You're missing the stage where Sasaki reveals himself as a detective and wins as a third mafia family, containing only him.

[Whacker]

Christmas is ruined.

This is pretty the only thing I gathered from this very tl;dr post.

[drone]

Nothing much.

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

The ton of cash is in Zimbabwe 1 dollar bills.