Any Suggestions for Hoplite Tweaking?

So I plan to tweak the "classical" hoplite units (non-sarissa phalangites) a bit since most of them can't seem to maintain a coherent formation.

For all the classical hoplites with only 1 weapon (spear) such as the triari, spartan hoplites, etc, I gave them all
the short pike attribute of the TW Fanatic's hoplite mod. They have +2 shields, -.02 lethality, and -2 armor + short pike attribute.
With this combination, they are extremely powerful from the front and weak from the sides/rear...as hoplites should be. Best of all, the units stick together and form a nice and tight shield-wall formation (with this trait, the hoplite unit doesn't break apart and expand like they would normally do)

Now for the classical hoplites with 2 weapons (spear + sword), I can't give them the short pike attribute. However, I still want them to maintain a more coherent formation and make them stronger from the front.

Any suggestions on the formation style, shield/lethality/armor values?


thanks

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Originally Posted by Intranetusa

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So I plan to tweak the "classical" hoplite units (non-sarissa phalangites) a bit since most of them can't seem to maintain a coherent formation.

For all the classical hoplites with only 1 weapon (spear) such as the triari, spartan hoplites, etc, I gave them all
the short pike attribute of the TW Fanatic's hoplite mod. They have +2 shields, -.02 lethality, and -2 armor + short pike attribute.
With this combination, they are extremely powerful from the front and weak from the sides/rear...as hoplites should be. Best of all, the units stick together and form a nice and tight shield-wall formation (with this trait, the hoplite unit doesn't break apart and expand like they would normally do)

Now for the classical hoplites with 2 weapons (spear + sword), I can't give them the short pike attribute. However, I still want them to maintain a more coherent formation and make them stronger from the front.

Any suggestions on the formation style, shield/lethality/armor values?


thanks

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I can only say that I have noticed that Classical Hoplites (or any similar unit) stays as a block whilst in guard mode, but spreads apart whilst not in guard mode.

Probably EB2.

You don't really need to tweak them , just put them in guard mode and they will operate perfectly.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Probably EB2.

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What anti said (you would, you would).

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Originally Posted by bobbin

You don't really need to tweak them , just put them in guard mode and they will operate perfectly.

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Like I said, guard mode apparently keeps them together. Makes sense considering the whole PURPOSE of the guard mode feature.

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Originally Posted by bobbin

You don't really need to tweak them , just put them in guard mode and they will operate perfectly.

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The problem is, for non-sarissa units, guard mode is virtually useless unless you're trying to hold a line. A hoplite unit in guard mode will often attack at a strange angle with only maybe a third of their units engaged...this results in the enemy steadily surrounding and picking off the corners of the unit in guard mode. Also, guard mode is worthless if you're trying to attack with any unit.

All I need is a way to keep their formation cohesive without buggy features such as guard mode.

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Originally Posted by Intranetusa

The problem is, for non-sarissa units, guard mode is virtually useless unless you're trying to hold a line. A hoplite unit in guard mode will often attack at a strange angle with only maybe a third of their units engaged...this results in the enemy steadily surrounding and picking off the corners of the unit in guard mode. Also, guard mode is worthless if you're trying to attack with any unit.

All I need is a way to keep their formation cohesive without buggy features such as guard mode.

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I don't see how you can call it buggy if it does what it was MEANT to do. You don't attack with guard mode. The fact that guard mode causes a hoplite to attack at a strange angle isn't a bug, it is your fault in the way you engage. If you engage the hoplite line with the enemy line in phase, they will engage whilst holding phalanx formation (hoplite phalanx of course). If you are going to attack at an angle or perpendicular in worst case scenario, you'll need to break phalanx anyways, because you either guard off and surround unit with staggered hoplites, or you engage using a section of the phalanx while maintaining the phalanx itself (guard on). It's built into the phalanx formation that hoplites used. The only way they can go berserk if not attacking in phase (parallel) is to stagger (guard off) and pull out swords, and we know they don't have swords in EB but that's fine, they'll just keep using spears.

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Originally Posted by vartan

I don't see how you can call it buggy if it does what it was MEANT to do. You don't attack with guard mode. The fact that guard mode causes a hoplite to attack at a strange angle isn't a bug, it is your fault in the way you engage. If you engage the hoplite line with the enemy line in phase, they will engage whilst holding phalanx formation (hoplite phalanx of course). If you are going to attack at an angle or perpendicular in worst case scenario, you'll need to break phalanx anyways, because you either guard off and surround unit with staggered hoplites, or you engage using a section of the phalanx while maintaining the phalanx itself (guard on). It's built into the phalanx formation that hoplites used. The only way they can go berserk if not attacking in phase (parallel) is to stagger (guard off) and pull out swords, and we know they don't have swords in EB but that's fine, they'll just keep using spears.

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It seems to me that you haven't played the game enough...or you haven't used the guard mode formation very much.


When in guard mode, sometimes the sarissa units start moonwalking backwards. I guess having my units walk backwards must be my fault too huh? O_o

Non-sarissa units often moon walk sideways, and even when attacking straight on, guard units sometimes start tilting at an angle even though
they originally were lined up.



I only use guardmode to prevent my units from charging without orders, and for sarissa phalanx units to prevent them from breaking formation.

Also, whether 2-weapons units are in guard mode or not does not determine whether or not they use spears or swords. I've had units in guard mode on/off and half of the unit used spears while the other half used swords.

Like I said before, guard mode sucks for classical hoplite units, and although it does somewhat keep unit cohesion, it sacrifices their combat effectiveness in most situations.

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Like I said before, guard mode sucks for classical hoplite units, and although it does somewhat keep unit cohesion, it sacrifices their combat effectiveness in most situations.

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hmm no It sucks for every unit but hoplites. Hoplites are strongest in a tight(and straight) formation with the enemy steamrolling against them from the front. you have to use other units or more hoplites to secure the flanks. as long as you can keep the flanks(and the back^^) safe classical hoplites or even hoplitai haploi are a nearly impenetrable wall. you can try to use hoplites to deliver a charge like with celtic/germanic spearmen but they really lack the endurance for running around all the time and are more suited for blocking off attacks than delivering them themselves.
Still it would be fair to say there has to be a better solution than the way they are in EB as this is only marginally coherent with real classical hoplites but i would not say they are unplayable, imo even a bit too effective when compared to reformed hoplites^^

in EB that is

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Originally Posted by Intranetusa

It seems to me that you haven't played the game enough...or you haven't used the guard mode formation very much.


When in guard mode, sometimes the sarissa units start moonwalking backwards. I guess having my units walk backwards must be my fault too huh? O_o

Non-sarissa units often moon walk sideways, and even when attacking straight on, guard units sometimes start tilting at an angle even though
they originally were lined up.



I only use guardmode to prevent my units from charging without orders, and for sarissa phalanx units to prevent them from breaking formation.

Also, whether 2-weapons units are in guard mode or not does not determine whether or not they use spears or swords. I've had units in guard mode on/off and half of the unit used spears while the other half used swords.

Like I said before, guard mode sucks for classical hoplite units, and although it does somewhat keep unit cohesion, it sacrifices their combat effectiveness in most situations.

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I've been playing since RTW version 1. If you're having such a BIG problem with pikes, go ahead and upgrade to engine 1.9. 1.9 fixes your problem.

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

hmm no It sucks for every unit but hoplites. Hoplites are strongest in a tight(and straight) formation with the enemy steamrolling against them from the front. you have to use other units or more hoplites to secure the flanks. as long as you can keep the flanks(and the back^^) safe classical hoplites or even hoplitai haploi are a nearly impenetrable wall. you can try to use hoplites to deliver a charge like with celtic/germanic spearmen but they really lack the endurance for running around all the time and are more suited for blocking off attacks than delivering them themselves.
Still it would be fair to say there has to be a better solution than the way they are in EB as this is only marginally coherent with real classical hoplites but i would not say they are unplayable, imo even a bit too effective when compared to reformed hoplites^^

in EB that is

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Aye, although all my classical hoplites with 1 weapon are in a perfectly cohesive formation with TW Fanatic's short_pike trait idea. So that's no issue. Short pike is a bit glitchy for 2 weapon units, since the unit just switches to their 2ndary swords and don't bother using their spears.

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Originally Posted by vartan

I've been playing since RTW version 1. If you're having such a BIG problem with pikes, go ahead and upgrade to engine 1.9. 1.9 fixes your problem.

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>_> ...

Now you're going off topic.

My problem has nothing to do with pikes. My problem is with unit cohesion. My entire point is finding a way to keep units together. You suggested the guard formation, which I said sucks for pike-men and most units in general.

And no, I'm not going to buy Alexander to fix some random guard-mode pike issue.

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Originally Posted by Intranetusa

My problem has nothing to do with pikes. My problem is with unit cohesion. My entire point is finding a way to keep units together. You suggested the guard formation, which I said sucks for pike-men and most units in general.

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My friend, you will find no gold where there is none. Perhaps another one of the games in Sega's Total War series will find units in cohesion, but Rome obviously isn't one of them =)

You're probably right... ;(


rabel rabel rabel!

With hoplites in Guard mode, don't attack an enemy unit - don't click ON the enemy. Place the cursor BEHIND the enemy unit and click there. And then just let the hoplites just march in tight formation directly into the enemy. Just as they make contact, front rank in spear reach of the enemy front rank, click the Halt button so the hoplites stop marching. Then they perform their guard mode defensive fighting as per usual.

It's a way of getting hoplites into combat when the enemy isn't obliging enough to attack you. The enemy will fight if they are 'touching' you.

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

With hoplites in Guard mode, don't attack an enemy unit - don't click ON the enemy. Place the cursor BEHIND the enemy unit and click there. And then just let the hoplites just march in tight formation directly into the enemy. Just as they make contact, front rank in spear reach of the enemy front rank, click the Halt button so the hoplites stop marching. Then they perform their guard mode defensive fighting as per usual.

It's a way of getting hoplites into combat when the enemy isn't obliging enough to attack you. The enemy will fight if they are 'touching' you.

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You can do this if you wish to lose many hoplites. Or you can put guard off, order move behind enemy, once contact the hoplites start fighting, then you can engage guard mode. At least they wont die this way. Not due to animation anyway.