Do you have any tips how to beat the Romans with an Averni/Lusotanna factions?

Hello there.

When I have playing against Rome with Averni then I have noticed that the only good infantry which can stand up them in the long run are a Gallic heavy swordsmen and Averni nobles, but the problem with the latter unit is that they take too little space on the battlefield in comparison to other units and can thereby be hard to make the formation intact with them. However if I should invest in elites then I would thereby have to buy a cheap units (like Boi swordsmen) which are too vulnerable to javelins and lose morale too soon agains the legionaries, so by investing in one side then it recoils upon the other in whole.

Mine hitherto best combination is about 3 Gallic noble cavalry, 3 Averni nobles, 8 Gallic heavy swordsmen, and 2 Boi swordsmen for a 36000 minai, so I have to forfeit mine ranged units because they don't seem to accomplish much against too many Romans units with a 100 men each and that the enemy ranged units are much better then mine own. When I have been fighting with mine cavalry against the Roman cavalry then I always lose against them, because the Romans have a better attack and defense and a better selection of auxiliary cavalry, while if I invest in more cavalry then it recoils upon mine infantry selection.

So I will ask whether you have any good tips about beating the Romans with the Averni or other western barbarian factions. What is a proper unit combination for such faction against them. Also I dont want to credit the victory merely to some elite naked fanatics but I am rather speaking about a good approach in regard to formations with mostly a medium/heavy units

Oh by the way... I am talking about the Eb online battles with other players but not of the Single player campaign.

Like when the players with Rome have a lots of imperial legionaries which outnumber mine own units.

Simple answer : you have to outplay them .

tips to improve your strat:
bring 1 unit of uirodusios
Add 1 unit of Gaesatae
You have cheap AP units as mercs in Appea Gaedutos. they can be both anti cav / flankers
use belgae swordsmen/belgae cav ..they're much better

if you manage to win the cav battle you got a shot ..you have a lot of scary units , their cumulative effect should give you that

It is a nasty matchup. The key is to remember that you're not trying to kill the Romans (tough bastards never seem to die for cost, always take too much with them), but to scare them so much they rout. I'd give more advice than that, but I don't really know a great answer, lol.

In what context do you say that Belgae swordsmen are much better?

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Originally Posted by VikingPower

In what context do you say that Belgae swordsmen are much better?

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Here's the difference.

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;66
type celtic infantry bataroas
dictionary celtic_infantry_bataroas ; Bataroas
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_infantry_bataroas_northerncuroas, 50, 0, 1.1
officer ebofficer_celtic_officer
officer ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation 1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 8, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 10, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 5, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental 11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1503, 376, 196, 374, 1503
ownership gauls, scythia, slave

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;83
type celtic infantry milnaht
dictionary celtic_infantry_milnaht ; Milnaht
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier belgae_infantry_milnaht, 40, 0, 1.18
officer ebofficer_celtic_officer
mount_effect elephant -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 0.85, 1.1, 1.6, 2, 3, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 8, javelin, 47.3, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 5, 13, 4, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -1
stat_mental 15, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1848, 462, 50, 70, 1848
ownership britons, gauls, scythia, slave

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Even if you add one chevron to the Bataroas (which will make them have almost the same cost), Milnaht will be still better.

But if fighting with Barbarian factions against the Romans can be so difficult that mine only chance is to frighten them rather than from any general strategy, then should not the Barbarians get a little more money against Rome?

And how many players in whole do really manage to defeat the Romans with a barbarian factions? I think it should be examined through some vote whether the Romans are over-powered against such factions, for a rule adjustment.

The barbarian factions are indeed harder to play , especially against the Romans , but not that underpowered. you do have better scare units , chariots , 2hp units , somewhat better cavalry esp in melees , etc.

The Romans are broken , i know , but they are as interesting as a wall. Sure , it's strong and big , but not very imaginative:))

ps: you do have a lot of units with combat bonus in woods , maybe that helps?:))I mean , we do have the chance of choosing who we play against , no?

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Originally Posted by VikingPower

And how many players in whole do really manage to defeat the Romans with a barbarian factions? I think it should be examined through some vote whether the Romans are over-powered against such factions, for a rule adjustment.

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Neospartan could do that with Arverni, Gabeed with Casse. I could do it with Swébóz.

By the way, pre-Marian Romani, who were trully OP, are restricted. Against Post-Marians what you need is AP units, like chevroned Teceitos or Tekastos at the celts and Loricati Scutari at the Lusos. Also, scare effect is a great weapon and it's part of the "barbarian" gameplay, if you don't like that, why are you going with Arverni?

Start the battle with a powerful charge with Gaesatae, Uirodusios or Pictone Neitos...
Meanwhile with Leuce Epos or Taramannos, and if needed also your general, deal with the enemy cavalry: harassing with their javelins and if you manage try to let them charge, you will outrun them and they'll get tired.
Right after the first charge send the "line" infantry, since money it's a problem use some Bataroas/Botroas and if possible few Milnaht.
Hopefully their first line will begin to rout, with the victorious cavalry charge the enemy's rear, otherwise commit your general with ALT+Click in a cavalry melee, while your light cavalry charge and retreat...
The idea is to keep the fight on the offensive not giving the opponent time to move...
If these doesn't work try the stand on guard mode with an "elite" army: Neitos, Arjos, Mori Gaesum or whatever you can afford. Keep a solid line, possibly 6-8 men deep (Huge Setting), so Neitos or Cingetos are the best here beacuse they're not too packed, when the eneny's army is tired unleash hell turning guard mode off...

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Originally Posted by VikingPower

So I will ask whether you have any good tips about beating the Romans with the Averni or other western barbarian factions. What is a proper unit combination for such faction against them. Also I dont want to credit the victory merely to some elite naked fanatics but I am rather speaking about a good approach in regard to formations with mostly a medium/heavy units

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Axxxxxxemen. You require more Vespene Gas AP units. Your previous approach is somewhat inefficient, as it requires an unhistorical amount of expensive nobles.

As Arverni, hire some Rhaetian Axemen (hope they are in the MP roster). They have "Roman" AP javelins plus AP melee weapons with a decent lethality. And a very nice unit size. As Lusotannan, go for Asturian Axemen. They're the same with slightly better stats (Soliferra FTW) but smaller unit size.
Teceitos are also a cheap and effective option. For better performance, have a unit of Uirodosios stand behind them (morale boost for your units, additional javelins, and fear effect).
Also, your statement regarding cavalry isn't really true. Barbarian cavalry can stand up very well to Roman cavalry. In terms of cost efficiency, it is even better.

With Lusotannan, almost every unit has an AP weapon, but crappy lethality. For additional variety, try to add some units with better lethality, like Milites Ilergetum.
Use Iabarannta as skirmishers, they are an absolute pain in the behind in my Roman campaigns. They have spears for melee and some basic armour. Don't bother with Iovamann (basic Lusotannan skirmishers), they're the worst skirmishers in the game and won't do anything against Romans.
Gestikapoinann are sufficient as anti-cavalry and anti-skirmisher troops. They have a nice big shield to catch missiles. Scortamareva or Iberi Scutari are the best choices for line infantry, while there is a large variety of swordsmen to choose from for the more mobile battlefield roles.
For missile troops, use Balearic Slingers. Try to shoot the enemy general and heavy cavalry with them, not the legionaries.
For cavalry, use a unit of Iberi Lanceari (or two, but that's excessive), supported by other units of your choice.
The advantages of Barbarian factions are lethality, armour-piercing weapons, fear-inducing troops, defence skill, and stamina. Generally, Lusotannan gameplay is more based on a fluid fighting style and inflicting massive missile casualties. They don't have the above average lethality of the other barbarian factions, nor the superior morale of the Getai and Swêboz, nor the fear specialists of the Celts. In exchange, they have many excellent javelin and AP units.

The problem with fighting Romans and Greeks as Barbarian factions is that many of their individual units simply have more men then you. So they outnumber you and don't rout easilly... so yeah..

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Also, scare effect is a great weapon and it's part of the "barbarian" gameplay, if you don't like that, why are you going with Arverni?

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Because I favour a western infantry based factions rather than the Hellenic and Eastern factions, for I like to have a reliable infantry which will stand its ground for a long enough time untill mine cavalry can come to its resuce, but I rather like to win through a skill of formation and by having many medium/Heavy units intead of having some elite units and some special effets (like frightening). But I do not want to play as the Roman faction because for mine part I feel it gives a too cheap victory while I rather want more challenge with a factions with have their own strength and vulnerability.

But when concerning this thread then I think I will have a 8 Naked fanatics and 6 naked spearmen when fighting against the Rome just to test the absurdity of this fear effect.

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Originally Posted by VikingPower

Because I favour a western infantry based factions rather than the Hellenic and Eastern factions, for I like to have a reliable infantry which will stand its ground for a long enough time untill mine cavalry can come to its resuce, but I rather like to win through a skill of formation and by having many medium/Heavy units intead of having some elite units and some special effets (like frightening). But I do not want to play as the Roman faction because for mine part I feel it gives a too cheap victory while I rather want more challenge with a factions with have their own strength and vulnerability.

But when concerning this thread then I think I will have a 8 Naked fanatics and 6 naked spearmen when fighting against the Rome just to test the absurdity of this fear effect.

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But as far as I know, the naked units' fear effect isn't cumulative, so having a bunch in one spot doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by VikingPower

Because I favour a western infantry based factions rather than the Hellenic and Eastern factions, for I like to have a reliable infantry which will stand its ground for a long enough time untill mine cavalry can come to its resuce, but I rather like to win through a skill of formation and by having many medium/Heavy units intead of having some elite units and some special effets (like frightening). But I do not want to play as the Roman faction because for mine part I feel it gives a too cheap victory while I rather want more challenge with a factions with have their own strength and vulnerability.

But when concerning this thread then I think I will have a 8 Naked fanatics and 6 naked spearmen when fighting against the Rome just to test the absurdity of this fear effect.

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I favour the infantry based armies and I like the reliable heavy infantry too, so I can understand your situation. I played with you once and I spectated atleast one of your battles, you know how to beat the opponent up, but your army has wrong setup for an online battle. Heavy infantry doesn't work if they don't have special back ups. The frightening effect is a must, it decreases moral, low morale leads to rout, which means you can outnumber the battle line of your enemy. Unit with armour piercing weapons are a must against armoured foes, like the Romani legionaries. Most "barbarian" faction has commander units, they have the ability to inspire the nearby troopers, very important, they can keep up the morale if your general is far away, so your line won't collapse even when you are outnumbered. When picking up units it's also important to find the cost-effective ones! For example: Don't buy Boii Cingetos, they aren't as good as Bataroas, since their lethality is lower which means lower kill/hit. Don't buy Gallic noble infantry, they are expensive and useless since they keep switching between the spears and the swords, use instead Neitos and/or Milnaht. Don't buy heavy cavalry if you know that your opponent has much heavier ones, from those thousands of mnai you could buy better spearmen with +1 chevrons. Check the EDU for the stats so you can decide what worthes your mnai and what not.

I played with Aedui today a few times, and I have a quite good build against infantry based factions:
2 Gaesatae - One of them is the general unit, placed behind my line to spread fear and to help if the Teceitos fail
4 Neitos - My line infantry in the centre
4 Iaosatae - My slingers are the bait, they soak up the damage caused by the enemy archers, so my more expensive soldiers don't suffer
4 Teceitos - My axeman are on the flanks to help the Neitos/or to eat the opponent's heavy infantry
2 Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai - Anti-cavalry flank protectors
1 Uirodusios - A commander unit, they raise my troopers morale and decreases the enemy's, they are placed behind the Gaesatae in a very thin line to slow down cavalry attacks coming from the rear
3 Cidainh - In loose formation, they are the mass killers of cavalry units, placed on one of my flanks, usually deep behind my line to protect them from archers and skirmishers, when the right time comes I drive them against the enemy cavalry and after that I place the remainder of them behind the enemy line to cause mass routs with the extra frightening effect.

It worked quite well for me despite the weaknesses (The whole army is easy prey for archers, if the chariots cannot cause enough chaos the chance of victory is drastically reduced, etc.).

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Originally Posted by VikingPower

But when concerning this thread then I think I will have a 8 Naked fanatics and 6 naked spearmen when fighting against the Rome just to test the absurdity of this fear effect.

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I wouldn't try this because the effect of scary units doesn't stack. One is as good as four in a small area. You probably only need 2-3 tops to give a scary effect across the entire enemy line. Plus, most scary units tend to be "poorly armored" (a.k.a. naked) so bringing 14 of them will just mean your front line will get utterly devastated by the Roman pila...

It's going to be quite difficult beating the Roman infantry with your infantry. I know you said you like infantry tactics, but you do have the cavalry advantage against Rome with these factions, and you should exploit that. If you can win the cavalry battle, you gain the upper hand in terms of mobility and flanking ability.

Apazlinemjo's point about Cidainh is a good one. If you keep them moving at all times and away from dense infantry formations, they can be great units. They destroy cavalry when you run through them, and the also provide that scare effect. Though the scare effect doesn't stack (edit: apparently the chariot effect is different from the infantry, so it does stack), bringing Cidainh is still usually worth it because they can get behind the enemy lines and provide the scare effect to enemy units too far away from your scary infantry to be effected. Plus, they cause general chaos, tossing men around in the air and destroying formations.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

Scary units don't stack though. One is as good as four in a small area. You probably only need 2-3 tops (3 is stretching it, too) to give a scary effect across the entire enemy line.

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Chariots', infantries' and fire arrows' scare effects stack on eachother, because they aren't the same type. However the same types don't, like Gaesatae's and Uirodusios' frightening effect won't stack on eachother.

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Originally Posted by Apázlinemjó

Chariots', infantries' and fire arrows' scare effects stack on eachother, because they aren't the same type. However the same types don't, like Gaesatae's and Uirodusios' frightening effect won't stack on eachother.

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I didn't realize that the chariot fright effect was any different from the infantry fright effect... I thought they were both simply "Frightens enemy infantry"

Even so, my point still stands about the half stack of Urodusios and Gaesatae... but this does increase the value of Cidainh even more

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

I didn't realize that the chariot fright effect was any different from the infantry fright effect... I thought they were both simply "Frightens enemy infantry"

Even so, my point still stands about the half stack of Urodusios and Gaesatae... but this does increase the value of Cidainh even more

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Your point stands, I know, one-sided naked armies don't work.

The idea of stacking of scare effects is from my experience only, as a naked/chariot combo could mass rout quite large armies in my and others' games as well. The descriptions are different when the effect begins to work(Intimidated by the enemy/Frightened by chariots/Panicked by fire arrows) although they have the same attribute in the EDU. If someone with better knowledge in this could clear this up... :)

ugh... I think I will just practice myself with the Lusotanna faction, partly because of their good selection of units and also because historically they were one of the most formidable enemies to Rome in a bloody war which dragged on.

Ur choice but you will have a harder time defeating the romans with them than with Arverni.

By what i read , you like to pin the enemy with inf and win by a charge with cav. For that you need hellenes as they are the ones that excell at that. Barbarians are good at making you turn and run , not for extraordinary holding power or for winning cav duels with relative ease.

Also , you might wanna consider Getai or Sweboz as they ar ethe bloody bunch , cheap as hell and very bloody .

I did try Getai myself on the online battle and i defeated quite a few infantry armies but got my *** kicked by Steppe or hellenes.

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Originally Posted by VikingPower

But if fighting with Barbarian factions against the Romans can be so difficult that mine only chance is to frighten them rather than from any general strategy, then should not the Barbarians get a little more money against Rome?

And how many players in whole do really manage to defeat the Romans with a barbarian factions? I think it should be examined through some vote whether the Romans are over-powered against such factions, for a rule adjustment.

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Ok, Here advises are needed! i'm kickin' roman asses since a year and a half as sweboz (meaning way crapier economy than yours) and I had the exact same problem than you have now : Romans! first rule, use AP units, don't underestimate scaring effect (one or two urodusios) keep them out of battle but close enough to have their effect on the roman. when the moral is going down, give a massive charge with all units you could have kept in reswerve (wich will most likly cause a mass rout) enjoy the killing as you have better stamina, meaning your foot soldiers will butcher those roman sissies in no time when they run away. another tip : use ambush. Your guys are great in the wood, don't forget that! and romans have an enjoyable tendency to die when surrounded by trees and blood thirsty warriors! don't say that fear and ambush isn't general strategy. it is the general strategyu of any "barbarians". if you wanna play with pitched, lined up battle, play as romans or greek! Barbarians are way funnier!

But when concerning the Lusotanna faction then which is the best medium unit which has a combat bonus in woods?

Is it Illergetan soldiers, Iberian medium infantry, Celtibrerian heavy infantry, or Callaechi medium infantry? (I am excluding Iberian medium spearmen for I know it is already one of the best units of that faction).

But about the Ambushers (Iabarannata) then I am not sure whether I should have them or Javeliners since the latter have a better attack as a light spearmen, so Javeliners could be more proper as a supporting units in melee with mine infantry.

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Originally Posted by VikingPower

But when concerning the Lusotanna faction then which is the best medium unit which has a combat bonus in woods?

Is it Illergetan soldiers, Iberian medium infantry, Celtibrerian heavy infantry, or Callaechi medium infantry? (I am excluding Iberian medium spearmen for I know it is already one of the best units of that faction).

But about the Ambushers (Iabarannata) then I am not sure whether I should have them or Javeliners since the latter have a better attack as a light spearmen, so Javeliners could be more proper as a supporting units in melee with mine infantry.

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Illergetans against lightly armoured foes (They have 0.225 lethality which is nice) and Iberium medium infantry against armoured foes (They have AP javelins and AP swords too), I guess you can leave out the Gallaechi.

Celtiberians are heavy, they have high morale (15) which makes them perfect for line-holders, however against armoured foes, you should get Loricati Scutari because of their AP swords (they have almost the same price).

The difference between the Javelineers and the Ambushers is small --> The Ambushers' range is longer and their javelin has +1 attack, however Javelineers' secondy spear has 2 more attack and +0.001 (lol) lethality. If you want a deadlier skirmisher then choose Ambushers, if you want a support spearmen unit than choose Javelineers.

One other big thing you can do (especially as Lusotann) against the Romans is sneakily host and drop the mnai level down to 30 or even 24k. This frequently allows you to outnumber them considerably rather than just use chevrons to improve your troops. If you outnumber them heavily, you can use your advantage in Javelineers/Ambushers (the Lusotann's most iconic troops, in my opinion) to flank the Roman line and devastate them with javelins to the back. The only real problem you might run into is an Imperial army using their good archers. But slingers are excellent against those archers, as their main defense is chainmail.

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Originally Posted by MisterFred

But slingers are excellent against those archers, as their main defense is chainmail.

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And those archers are excellent versus slingers, because of their tremendous range and superior attack. So yeah.
Still, as I suggested, you can decimate the Roman cavalry with slingers. As soon as you have the cavalry advantage, those archers are less of a threat. And IMO spamming archers as Rome is lame anyway. Real Romans use snipers, and no more than one unit of Balearic or Cretan mercs.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

And those archers are excellent versus slingers, because of their tremendous range and superior attack. So yeah.
Still, as I suggested, you can decimate the Roman cavalry with slingers. As soon as you have the cavalry advantage, those archers are less of a threat. And IMO spamming archers as Rome is lame anyway. Real Romans use snipers, and no more than one unit of Balearic or Cretan mercs.

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True Romans don't need missile units nor cavalry, just heavy infantry in massive quantity, muahhahaha!

The Arverni have some of the best spear/sword infantry in the game, namely Arjos (slow but very strong with exceptional morale), Helvetian phalanxes (strong but fast with good stamina), Alpine phalanx mercs and Massilian hoplites. In addition the Gauls have AP axemen as many have observed and fear through gaesatae. The Romans love to stand in line, with guard mode on, and shoot you down with imperial Eastern archers. So don't even waste your time with slingers, the eastern archers will destroy them too easily. Spend all your money on quality infantry (no bataroas, their morale is too low) and cavalry support, a few brihentin should be fine, Celto-germanic cavalry are also good. March forward with a big infantry mass, a few rows deep in a loose square formation, with the Arjos in front since they are very strong against missiles. Surround your opponents' left flank. Most of your army will have level four shields with good armor so you shouldn't take too much damage from arrows, whatever you suffer you will return in the melee since you aren't spending money on archers. The majority of your army should be spear/shield infantry, with axemen (Rhaetian mercs FTW) and gaesatae in reserve. Turn the Roman flank where it is thinnest and weakest and attack the most exposed cohort on the flank with Arjos. The Arjos should perform well due to their excellent morale and armor as long as you didn't tire them out much on the aproach. Keep the gaesatae in reserve but close enough to the battle so that the enemy suffers morale loss. Surround any vulnerable, exposed Roman cohort on two sides if there isn't risk of being blasted with javelins from the unshielded side. Once you start massacring a vulnerable cohort, chances are the Roman player will start breaking his formation and send help. Meet them one on one and spread the battle out. After the battle becomes a bit messy, charge an exposed cohort with your cavalry. The Roman should counter with his own cavalry or perhaps more legionary cohorts or auxiliary cohorts. Whatever he sends, support your cavalry and protect them with spear/shield infantry, Helviatian phalanxes and Alpine phalanxes are both good for cavalry support. Once you have drawn the battle out and turned it into a proper, chaotic bloodbath, send the gaesatae and Rhaetian axemen reserves at the extreme flank. Micromanage the bloody mess well and you should have a good chance at overcoming Roman numbers through superior lethality, armor piercing, and fear.

without using long-descriptions,
use a full-exp and badass unit :D

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Originally Posted by Gaius Septimus Severus

without using long-descriptions,
use a full-exp and badass unit :D

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as simple as remember to place a gaesatae in each flank