Power Charge and Lances in Melee

EB's cavalry have OP lances in melee. I ran an experiment (using Regular BI) to measure the effect of power_charge on charge effectiveness

So I used these stats, the following for the two test cav units (on regular BI):

NOTE: Stats are AtB test stats.

Quote:

type imperial household bodyguard
dictionary imperial_household_bodyguard ; Hetairoi Test
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier imperial_household_bodyguard, 20, 0, 1
mount generals horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, general_unit, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 48, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 200 ,0.32
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 12, 18, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 15, 12, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 3, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -6, 0
stat_mental 11, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 50
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 3, 2275, 390, 160, 230, 1520
ownership empire_east, empire_east_rebels

type imperial german bodyguard
dictionary imperial_german_bodyguard ; Hetairoi Test
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier imperial_german_bodyguard, 20, 0, 1
mount generals horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, general_unit, hide_forest, hardy, power_charge
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 48, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 200 ,0.32
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 12, 18, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 15, 12, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 4, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -6, 0
stat_mental 11, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 50
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 3, 2262, 391, 160, 230, 1510
ownership empire_west, empire_west_rebels

As you can see, the two are identical in stats except for the power_charge attribute.

Here are the infantry units I tested:

Quote:

type steppe swordsmen vandal
dictionary steppe_swordsmen_vandal ; Machairophoroi Test
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Medium_1
soldier steppe_swordsmen, 40, 0, 1.1
officer barb_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 7, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 1,0,1,1
stat_mental 11, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 324, 122, 40, 60, 360
ownership slave, vandals, slavs

type steppe heavy spearmen hun
dictionary steppe_heavy_spearmen_hun ; Thureophoroi Test
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier steppe_heavy_spearmen, 40, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_pri_attr light_spear
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 8, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1,0,1,1
stat_mental 9, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 513, 189, 60, 90, 570
ownership huns

So, I ran the test, using the same map (Arabian Desert or something) and the same method on each test (single right click on the enemy), using only the tests where the AI was able to stop its infantry unit and raise shields. I ended the battle roughly 3 seconds after charge impact.

Here are the results:

Power Charge vs Thureophoroi Test
1. 20 kills
2. 33 kills
3. 34 kills
Total: 87 kills

No Power Charge vs Thureophoroi Test
1. 20 kills
2. 29 kills
3. 19 kills
Total: 68

87/63 = 1.28, so 28% more kills

Power Charge vs Machairophoroi Test
1. 28 kills
2. 38 kills
3. 30 kills
Total: 96 kills

No Power Charge vs Machairophoroi Test
1. 30 kills
2. 24 kills
3. 26 kills
Total: 80 kills

96/80 = 1.2, so 20% more kills

(20+28)/2 = 24, so average 24% more kills when power_charge attribute was added

Conclusion: The power_charge attribute increases the effectiveness of cavalry charges by about 25%

Coincidentally, I had already set the lance lethality to .32, which is perfect, as 80% of .4 is .32; this should be roughly the same cavalry charge effectiveness as a .4 lethality charge without the power_charge attribute; thus, the charge effectiveness remains the same.

However, as power_charge is irrelevant to static melee combat, given the equation:

Kill Chance = const1 * lethality * 1.1 ^ (ATK-DEF+MOD)

The lance will be 20% less effective in melee. This should make secondary weapons superior, given the delay of 200 as well.

AtB will thus use this system to balance cavalry in melee.

Re: Power Charge and Lances in Melee

I think you better raise their attack and remove ap attributes too.... to stop them being perfect can opener in melee

Re: Power Charge and Lances in Melee

No. Having ap is historically accurate, as no matter who you are, a charge from a lancer would likely pierce your armour, or deliver massive shock from the impact alone.

Re: Power Charge and Lances in Melee

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamegeek2

No. Having ap is historically accurate, as no matter who you are, a charge from a lancer would likely pierce your armour, or deliver massive shock from the impact alone.

but that was different thing when you are bogged down in melee, having a high charge values alone should be counted up as armour breaking (I said breaking, not piercing), but when you stop and didn't got the momentum, the lance shouldn't be ap

Re: Power Charge and Lances in Melee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

but that was different thing when you are bogged down in melee, having a high charge values alone should be counted up as armour breaking (I said breaking, not piercing), but when you stop and didn't got the momentum, the lance shouldn't be ap

Too bad the engine doesn't have a mechanism to portray the AP-ness, if you will, of a charging horseman's lance, as opposed to the lack of AP-ness when he is bogged down. Heck, pull out that sword mate. Time to use it, yeah?!

Re: Power Charge and Lances in Melee

Quote:

Originally Posted by vartan

Too bad the engine doesn't have a mechanism to portray the AP-ness, if you will, of a charging horseman's lance, as opposed to the lack of AP-ness when he is bogged down. Heck, pull out that sword mate. Time to use it, yeah?!

AI can't automatically used their swords, unless they got severe advantage of them in random moments

Re: Power Charge and Lances in Melee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonic

AI can't automatically used their swords, unless they got severe advantage of them in random moments

Well I wasn't talking about the AI (=

You can almost safely assume that my posts regarding units and how they behave on the field are references to multiplayer (hmm...).

Re: Power Charge and Lances in Melee

Quote:

Originally Posted by vartan

Well I wasn't talking about the AI (=

You can almost safely assume that my posts regarding units and how they behave on the field are references to multiplayer (hmm...).

if the AI are disciplined enough to get a fair play, and draw their swords as fair melee weapons, then ap lances should be fine, but what about the real campaign game, you don't fought against humans in singleplayers, don't you?

Re: Power Charge and Lances in Melee

Heavy cavalry is probably overpowered but medium cavalry is underpowered.

The Greek-medium cavalry is absolutely useless in both their charge and in melee. They kill maybe 1-2 enemies in a charge, and in melee, they regularly lose to a bunch of javelin-skirmishers or even archer units.

Re: Power Charge and Lances in Melee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonic

if the AI are disciplined enough to get a fair play, and draw their swords as fair melee weapons, then ap lances should be fine, but what about the real campaign game, you don't fought against humans in singleplayers, don't you?

No. In general, and someone may confirm if it's exclusive, but in general the AI uses primary weapon from cav. Let me put it this way: every single time I've engaged the computer's cavalry, it has used the primary weapon (i.e. lance). Only those horsemen that "fell" used the secondary. And that's a fair concern because if the AI is going to use primary exclusively, you don't want to lose because of it. Well, here's the catch with that: you also have a primary weapon. Your cav need not use secondary. And precisely because of this, and precisely because people wish to win and not lose battles, there is no, say, rule barring players from exclusively using the primary lance in multiplayer tourneys.