Re: Origin of Macedonians
Salut . E bine sa stiu ca mai sunt romani pe aici:)
Re: Origin of Macedonians
Nu numai romani, dar si persoane care vorbesc! Bine ati venit in forum asta Burebista!
Re: Origin of Macedonians
@ Imperator Invictus
I don't want to sound impolite or anything but you touch on rather sensitive matters. My main disagreement with your post (if I understand you correctly) would be that you seem to accept the notion of an unbroken continuity of nations throughout large historical periods. According to which, societies divided by thousands of years, with different political structures, different codes of values, religions, even different genetic make-ups have something in common, something that survives unchanged, the national psyche or whatever. It is the same notion, expressed by (state-funded of course) nationalist historians in every little balkan country, that legitimizes in the eyes of the people territorial claims, claims of national ownership of symbols and names and paves the way for the power struggles between the countries of this area, struggles that are profitable only for the upper classes and certainly not for us, common people.
I say all this as a Greek citizen raised to believe, by the educational system, the church and other channels of propaganda, that the Greeks are the direct descendants of Leonidas and Socrates (no matter if most us have not read a single page of ancient literature), that the Turks are butchers because that's their national inclination , that all lands within the boundaries of the Byzantine Empire at the 9th century are enslaved national greek lands (it is beyond question of course that the Byzantine Empire was as greek as say the Athenian Hegemony) and of course that Macedonia was greek from the ancient times and it has remained so and that our Macedonian neighbours have no right to this name, because they are impostors who steal our history etc etc... I believe you will find some parallels to ideas spread in your own country.
That is not to say of course that modern societies are a product of parthenogenesis and they sure are the outcome of the evolution (most times gradual, sometimes precipitous) of the past ones. The Vlach minorities in Greece are definitely related to the Romanians and they have been slowly and not forcefully to my knowledge, hellenized. The same case with the Arvanites (Albanian) minority from which I am partially descended. Not the same case unfortunately with the (Slavo)Macedonian minority that was mostly integrated by force or expelled. You may ask, why am I typing all these OT things? It's because that I find highly alarming, that in a single post you discussed the origin of the ancient Macedonians, then moved on to talk about the Macedonian descend of 6th century AD figures and then about modern tribes/cultural/ethnic groups with (yet another) claim on Megas Alexandros. I am sorry, but I fail to find any connection between them apart that they lived in the same area. I may be overreacting but living nowadays in Greece or Macedonia/Fyrom/(insert name of choice here) can make you quite sensitive on this.
I understand that such a post is probably violating the rules of the Forum or/and it increases the possibility of this thread to degenerate into a nationalistic flame war, so if a mod thinks that it is me after all who touches on sensitive matters, please tell me and I will not discuss similar matters in the future. As for the original question, I am really interested in what the knowledgeable people around here have to say. I am under the impression that this is still a debated matter (as is the question whether the ancient Macedonian language was a Greek dialect or a distinct language) but that most probably the Makedones had a common ancestry with the Greeks but being geographically separated from one another, at least until the classical period, their societies developed differently. Now I don't know if that makes them a different nation (if such a thing could be precisely defined) and I don't know the extent of cultural/genetic exchange between the Makedones and their ''barbarian'' neighbours. I am looking forward to learn.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
@ noble wrath : he was merely ask why are makedonians are regarded being semi barbaroi from other hellenes, and about the govt types...
And we all know that Makedonians is Greek, since they speak greek, and got greek educations, if their descendants become another nations, that was just fine thing
Re: Origin of Macedonians
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noble Wrath
@ Imperator Invictus
As for the original question, I am really interested in what the knowledgeable people around here have to say. I am under the impression that this is still a debated matter (as is the question whether the ancient Macedonian language was a Greek dialect or a distinct language) but that most probably the Makedones had a common ancestry with the Greeks but being geographically separated from one another, at least until the classical period, their societies developed differently. Now I don't know if that makes them a different nation (if such a thing could be precisely defined) and I don't know the extent of cultural/genetic exchange between the Makedones and their ''barbarian'' neighbours. I am looking forward to learn.
Many people on this forum know much more on classical history and genealogy than i do. What I can say, is that no one can conveniantly prove their link with such great figure without being nationalistic. as you mentioned, greek say Alexander was greek, Macedonians (slavic one) say that he was macedonian, and now romanians say he was Trakian... it's as valid as if I said that because I'm half ameriandian, it was my ancestor that killed Custer at Little Big Horn battle... as you mentioned, the flux and changes of populations in those time were too frequent to have a solid base of argument. it is, however only my opinion.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
I have a strong belief my ancestors (the Mongolians) murdered about a billion people. I have a strong belief my ancestors enslaved a couple of thousand people (the Dutch).
So what? Finding pride in your ancestry or nationality is pretty much useless. Was it your blood that was spilt? No, so don't feel proud of things that you haven't done.
Now, I hope we can continue discussing the ancestry of the Macedonians without this debate degrading to nationalistic nonsense.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
You are not impolite Noble Wrath, thank you for your intervention. But I wasn’t talking about claiming territories in the Balkans. I personally await the day when all our Balkan countries will be part of European Union who will evolve in a entity without internal borders, and all the peoples will be equal European citizens united in progress, ecology and pacifism. Those three are the European brands who will replace, in the future, American brands Coca-Cola, Hollywood etc.
The nationalist fanatics of all our nations will disappear in the future Europe.
But I simply think that, in History(and unfortunately in Europa Barbarorum), the ancestors of the most powerful countries of today are overestimated and other peoples like Thracians, Persians, Indians, Axumites etc, are shadowed.
For example: we have in EB a playable faction which is Casse, we all know than in that period, we had in Europe tens of peoples, city-states or tribes more important than the tribes of the small populated area of Britain and they are not playable, and in EB 2 I’ve heard that they will create another British faction.
Or in Medieval, we have Scotland but we didn’t have Sweden, Crimea, Moldavia, Wallachia, Bulgaria, Florence etc. even if they had a greater impact in that period than Scotland.
You all know about King Arthur and how he united small Romano British enclaves to stand against the invasion (Saxons) but you don’t know what ruler gathered up the small Romanized enclaves in Transylvania to stand against the invasion (Magyars), or what ruler gathered up the Slavic enclaves to stand against another invasion (Mongols). The most succesfull in this type of actions was not even Arthur, was Sygarius who united the Gallo-Roman enclaves against the invading Franks.
As for great generals of History, how many of you know about George Washington and how many about Khalid al Walid, who was a hundred times better general than George Washington.
The Thracians deserve equal share in ancient history with the Celts, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Indians, Scythians…
Re: Origin of Macedonians
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hax
I have a strong belief my ancestors (the Mongolians) murdered about a billion people. I have a strong belief my ancestors enslaved a couple of thousand people (the Dutch).
So what? Finding pride in your ancestry or nationality is pretty much useless. Was it your blood that was spilt? No, so don't feel proud of things that you haven't done.
Now, I hope we can continue discussing the ancestry of the Macedonians without this debate degrading to nationalistic nonsense.
Wow, I feel attacked here. I think you misunderstood what I said. i wasn't talkin' about me nor anybody else. I was giving an example, showing pretty much what you said : that because of nationalistic beheaviour of people, finding the exact origins of great figures is a tricky matter. now read twice before shouting out loud.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noble Wrath
@ Imperator Invictus
It is the same notion, expressed by (state-funded of course) nationalist historians in every little balkan country, that legitimizes in the eyes of the people territorial claims, claims of national ownership of symbols and names and paves the way for the power struggles between the countries of this area, struggles that are profitable only for the upper classes and certainly not for us, common people.
I say all this as a Greek citizen raised to believe, by the educational system, the church and other channels of propaganda, that the Greeks are the direct descendants of Leonidas and Socrates (no matter if most us have not read a single page of ancient literature), that the Turks are butchers because that's their national inclination , that all lands within the boundaries of the Byzantine Empire at the 9th century are enslaved national greek lands (it is beyond question of course that the Byzantine Empire was as greek as say the Athenian Hegemony) and of course that Macedonia was greek from the ancient times and it has remained so and that our Macedonian neighbours have no right to this name, because they are impostors who steal our history etc etc... I believe you will find some parallels to ideas spread in your own country.
:laugh4:
In Romania is different, the state founded historians say, for example, that our medieval aristocracy were Slavic or Cuman and in opposition we have the Nationalist historians who are somehow outcasts. At least the governments of Greece, Macedonia, Hungary or Bulgaria have a direction for their citizens even if they indoctrinate them, but my country is really fu__ed up in the last years from corruption, religion, incompetence and bureaucracy, including the educational system, we have no direction and we are sinking.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
Quote:
Wow, I feel attacked here. I think you misunderstood what I said. i wasn't talkin' about me nor anybody else. I was giving an example, showing pretty much what you said : that because of nationalistic beheaviour of people, finding the exact origins of great figures is a tricky matter. now read twice before shouting out loud.
Wow, I wasn't even talking to you.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
@Imperator Invictus: First of all, there won't be a second faction on the British islands, the Pritanoi will replace the Casse. There is no more and less important people in history, but a game has it's limitation and the EB team had to choose between them to keep the map together, so we wouldn't see a half map occupied by Eleutheroi. Scotland had impact on the medieval history, for example check their wars against England. By the way, they were put in M2TW to balance out England probably, CA works that way.
About the invasion of Magyars, I've never heard about the "Romanized" encalves who stood up against the invasion in Transylvania (source?), and I doubt it could be a serious army, as the 7 Hungarian and 3 Kabar tribes which came into the Carpathian Basin had approximately 20 000 men as fighting force altogether. Or if you mean that by the theory of Daco-Romanian continuity, well that's a different story.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Apázlinemjó
I've never heard about the "Romanized" encalves who stood up against the invasion in Transylvania (source?)
It's so sad, isn't it, how one people destroys another and simply because they were destroyed, nobody ever learned of their stand against the aggressors. The aggressors didn't want anybody to hear about their resistance. I wonder how many resistances are not recorded simply because of this...=(
I look forward to learning more about the Balkans, the people who lived there, the people who currently live there, and more!
Re: Origin of Macedonians
@Apázlinemjo
It apears that what I was saying about mithical indoctrination of another nations works on you too. I will give you a fragment about Gelu/Gelou/Gyula:
Gelou in the Gesta Ungarorum
According to the Gesta, on reaching the Carpathian Mountains, the Magyars found there three voivodates: that of Menumorut in Crişana, of Glad in the Banat, and of Gelou in central Transylvania. Duke Gelou is described as being a “certain Romanian”.
And while they tarried there some while, Tuhutum father of Horca, as he was a shrewd man, when he learned from the inhabitants of the goodness of the land of Transylvania, where Gelou, a certain Vlach, held sway, strove through the grace of Duke Árpád, his lord, to acquire the land of Transylvania for himself and his posterity. (…)
—Chapter 24 of The Deeds of the Hungarians - Of the land of Transylvania
It is evident from the Gesta, that Tuhutum’s attack was clearly targeted toward the salt mine district in Transylvania. According to the anonymous author of the Gesta, Transylvania was inhabited by Vlachs and Slavs at that time.
The aforesaid Tuhutum, a most skilful man, sent a certain shrewd man, father of Opaforcos Ogmand, to spy out for him the quality and fertility of the land of Transylvania and what its inhabitants were like, so that he might, if he could, go to war with them, for Tuhutum wished thereby to acquire a name and land for himself. (…) When the father of Ogmand, Tuhutum’s scout, circling like a wolf, viewed, as much as the human gaze may, the goodness and fertility of the land and its inhabitants, he loved it more than can be said and most swiftly returned to his lord. When he arrived, he spoke much to his lord of the goodness of that land: that that land was washed by the best rivers, whose names and advantages he listed, that in their sands they gathered gold and that the gold of that land was the best, and that they mined there salt, and the inhabitants of that land were the basest of the whole world, because they were Vlachs and Slavs, because they had nothing else for arms than bows and arrows and their duke, Gelou was inconstant and did not have around him good warriors who would dare stand against the courage of the Hungarians, because they suffered many injuries from the Cumans and Pechenegs.
—Chapter 25 of The Deeds of the Hungarians - Of the skillfulness of Tuhutum
The Magyar troops lead by Tuhutum defeated Duke Gelou by the river Almaş.
Then Tuhutum, having heard of the goodness of that land, sent his envoys to Duke Árpád to ask his permission to go beyond the woods to fight Duke Gelou. Duke Árpád, having taken counsel, commended Tuhutum’s wish and he gave him permission to go beyond the woods to fight Duke Gelou. When Tuhutum heard this from an envoy, he readied himself with his warriors and, having left his companions there, went forth eastwards beyond the woods against Gelou, duke of the Vlachs. Gelou, duke of Transylvania, hearing of his arrival, gathered his army and rode speedily towards him in order to stop him at the Meseş Gate, but Tuhutum, crossing the wood in one day, arrived at the Almaş river. Then both armies came upon each other, with the river lying between them. Duke Gelou planned to stop them there with his archers.
—Chapter 26 of The Deeds of the Hungarians - How they went against Gelu
Next morning, before daybreak, Tuhutum divided his army in two and he sent one part a little way upstream so that, having crossed the river, they might enter into battle while Gelou’s warriors were yet unawares. And because they had an easy crossing, both forces arrived at the battle at the same time and they fought fiercely, but the warriors of Duke Gelou were defeated and many of them slain and more captured. When Gelou, their duke, saw this, he fled for his life along with a few men. As he was in flight, hastening to his castle beside the Someş River, Tuhutum’s warriors, boldly pursuing Duke Gelou, slew him beside the Căpuş River. Then the inhabitants of the land, seeing the death of their lord, giving the right hand of their own free will chose to themselves as lord Tuhutum, father of Horca, and in that place which is called Esculeu, they confirmed their troth with an oath and from that day the place is called Esculeu, because they swore there. (…)
—Chapter 27 of The Deeds of the Hungarians - Of the death of Gelu
Re: Origin of Macedonians
I have to say that I find it very hard to find much that is relevant to EB 1 or 2 in this thread. Hungarians? Slavic Macedonians? Huns? Mongols? We do our best not to project modern ethnic and national paradigms backwards onto people who had not yet heard of them.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vartan
It's so sad, isn't it, how one people destroys another and simply because they were destroyed, nobody ever learned of their stand against the aggressors. The aggressors didn't want anybody to hear about their resistance. I wonder how many resistances are not recorded simply because of this...=(
I look forward to learning more about the Balkans, the people who lived there, the people who currently live there, and more!
I guess you didn't understand what I mean, I pointed out the "Romanized" problem. There were resistances and there are resistances when new people try to migrate into an already populated area, just check the minority problems which Europe has.
@ Imperator Invictus: Am I? I would be If I were the one who takes Gesta Hungarorum as a fact, which was written after the invasion by 300 years. We clearly don't know what happened there and then, because there are so few written sources about this matter. We have a few mystical names, exaggerated numbers and some unknown places. Do you believe that the Huns and the Magyars were relatives? And the Székelys came into the Carpathian Basin with the Huns? There many-many things which are highly questionable about Anonymus and his work, yet there are nationalist historians in both Hungary and Romania who take his words as facts, which is sad and I'm sad that there are even professors at our university who think this way.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
Well, the type 2 available government available in Pella made sense to me. How Hellenized Macedonians were was suspect even in the reign of Phillip. We can certainly assume there were people within Macedonia who, economically and culturally, were less Greek and more Thracian. In any case, the subjugation available resource makes more sense there than in Scordisci lands... at least in 272, before a long process of acculturation.
I suppose you could argue that Hayasdan-style reforms could be implemented for the Hungarian plain (I don't know its proper name, sorry), but although Dacia later did become controlled by a Getai-like people (I'm rough on the facts here), in 272 it would be far easier for a Thracian tribe to extend its government and control into Macedonia than Scordisci lands.
Does the placement of government resources make more sense in that context?
Re: Origin of Macedonians
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Apázlinemjó
We clearly don't know what happened there and then, because there are so few written sources about this matter. We have a few mystical names, exaggerated numbers and some unknown places.
Outch, that hurt. Anyway, I don’t want to start another Hungarian-Romanian war on this forum especially because I agree with all your Hungarian’s original statements:
1. Trianon suppressed the will of nations
2. the border between our countries is unjust
3. Romanian ethno genesis was south of the Danube
My motives:
1. Trianon suppressed the will of nations …because the people of Transylvania already gathered at Alba-Iulia in 1918 and proclaimed the union with the rest of Romanian provinces and that should have been enough so that treaty was unnecessary
2. the border between our countries is unjust … because Tisa river is a bit west
3. Romanian ethno genesis was south of the Danube … as well as north, because we are not just Latinized Dacians, we are Latinized Thracians who lived south of the Danube as well.
:laugh4:
I hope you are not offended because I’ve presented the real facts in a humorous way.
Re: Origin of Macedonians
This is a ****storm waiting to happen. The discussion has nothing to do with EB1 or 2 and the comments are already veering towards "Youtube Balkans Comments" category.
Take it to the Backroom, where it belongs.
