Origin of Macedonians

[Apázlinemjó]

@Imperator Invictus: First of all, there won't be a second faction on the British islands, the Pritanoi will replace the Casse. There is no more and less important people in history, but a game has it's limitation and the EB team had to choose between them to keep the map together, so we wouldn't see a half map occupied by Eleutheroi. Scotland had impact on the medieval history, for example check their wars against England. By the way, they were put in M2TW to balance out England probably, CA works that way.

About the invasion of Magyars, I've never heard about the "Romanized" encalves who stood up against the invasion in Transylvania (source?), and I doubt it could be a serious army, as the 7 Hungarian and 3 Kabar tribes which came into the Carpathian Basin had approximately 20 000 men as fighting force altogether. Or if you mean that by the theory of Daco-Romanian continuity, well that's a different story.

[vartan]

I've never heard about the "Romanized" encalves who stood up against the invasion in Transylvania (source?)

It's so sad, isn't it, how one people destroys another and simply because they were destroyed, nobody ever learned of their stand against the aggressors. The aggressors didn't want anybody to hear about their resistance. I wonder how many resistances are not recorded simply because of this...=(

I look forward to learning more about the Balkans, the people who lived there, the people who currently live there, and more!

[Imperator Invictus]

@Apázlinemjo
It apears that what I was saying about mithical indoctrination of another nations works on you too. I will give you a fragment about Gelu/Gelou/Gyula:

Gelou in the Gesta Ungarorum

According to the Gesta, on reaching the Carpathian Mountains, the Magyars found there three voivodates: that of Menumorut in Crişana, of Glad in the Banat, and of Gelou in central Transylvania. Duke Gelou is described as being a “certain Romanian”.

And while they tarried there some while, Tuhutum father of Horca, as he was a shrewd man, when he learned from the inhabitants of the goodness of the land of Transylvania, where Gelou, a certain Vlach, held sway, strove through the grace of Duke Árpád, his lord, to acquire the land of Transylvania for himself and his posterity. (…)
—Chapter 24 of The Deeds of the Hungarians - Of the land of Transylvania

It is evident from the Gesta, that Tuhutum’s attack was clearly targeted toward the salt mine district in Transylvania. According to the anonymous author of the Gesta, Transylvania was inhabited by Vlachs and Slavs at that time.

The aforesaid Tuhutum, a most skilful man, sent a certain shrewd man, father of Opaforcos Ogmand, to spy out for him the quality and fertility of the land of Transylvania and what its inhabitants were like, so that he might, if he could, go to war with them, for Tuhutum wished thereby to acquire a name and land for himself. (…) When the father of Ogmand, Tuhutum’s scout, circling like a wolf, viewed, as much as the human gaze may, the goodness and fertility of the land and its inhabitants, he loved it more than can be said and most swiftly returned to his lord. When he arrived, he spoke much to his lord of the goodness of that land: that that land was washed by the best rivers, whose names and advantages he listed, that in their sands they gathered gold and that the gold of that land was the best, and that they mined there salt, and the inhabitants of that land were the basest of the whole world, because they were Vlachs and Slavs, because they had nothing else for arms than bows and arrows and their duke, Gelou was inconstant and did not have around him good warriors who would dare stand against the courage of the Hungarians, because they suffered many injuries from the Cumans and Pechenegs.
—Chapter 25 of The Deeds of the Hungarians - Of the skillfulness of Tuhutum

The Magyar troops lead by Tuhutum defeated Duke Gelou by the river Almaş.

Then Tuhutum, having heard of the goodness of that land, sent his envoys to Duke Árpád to ask his permission to go beyond the woods to fight Duke Gelou. Duke Árpád, having taken counsel, commended Tuhutum’s wish and he gave him permission to go beyond the woods to fight Duke Gelou. When Tuhutum heard this from an envoy, he readied himself with his warriors and, having left his companions there, went forth eastwards beyond the woods against Gelou, duke of the Vlachs. Gelou, duke of Transylvania, hearing of his arrival, gathered his army and rode speedily towards him in order to stop him at the Meseş Gate, but Tuhutum, crossing the wood in one day, arrived at the Almaş river. Then both armies came upon each other, with the river lying between them. Duke Gelou planned to stop them there with his archers.
—Chapter 26 of The Deeds of the Hungarians - How they went against Gelu

Next morning, before daybreak, Tuhutum divided his army in two and he sent one part a little way upstream so that, having crossed the river, they might enter into battle while Gelou’s warriors were yet unawares. And because they had an easy crossing, both forces arrived at the battle at the same time and they fought fiercely, but the warriors of Duke Gelou were defeated and many of them slain and more captured. When Gelou, their duke, saw this, he fled for his life along with a few men. As he was in flight, hastening to his castle beside the Someş River, Tuhutum’s warriors, boldly pursuing Duke Gelou, slew him beside the Căpuş River. Then the inhabitants of the land, seeing the death of their lord, giving the right hand of their own free will chose to themselves as lord Tuhutum, father of Horca, and in that place which is called Esculeu, they confirmed their troth with an oath and from that day the place is called Esculeu, because they swore there. (…)
—Chapter 27 of The Deeds of the Hungarians - Of the death of Gelu

[oudysseos]

I have to say that I find it very hard to find much that is relevant to EB 1 or 2 in this thread. Hungarians? Slavic Macedonians? Huns? Mongols? We do our best not to project modern ethnic and national paradigms backwards onto people who had not yet heard of them.

[MisterFred]

Well, the type 2 available government available in Pella made sense to me. How Hellenized Macedonians were was suspect even in the reign of Phillip. We can certainly assume there were people within Macedonia who, economically and culturally, were less Greek and more Thracian. In any case, the subjugation available resource makes more sense there than in Scordisci lands... at least in 272, before a long process of acculturation.

I suppose you could argue that Hayasdan-style reforms could be implemented for the Hungarian plain (I don't know its proper name, sorry), but although Dacia later did become controlled by a Getai-like people (I'm rough on the facts here), in 272 it would be far easier for a Thracian tribe to extend its government and control into Macedonia than Scordisci lands.

Does the placement of government resources make more sense in that context?

[Apázlinemjó]

It's so sad, isn't it, how one people destroys another and simply because they were destroyed, nobody ever learned of their stand against the aggressors. The aggressors didn't want anybody to hear about their resistance. I wonder how many resistances are not recorded simply because of this...=(

I look forward to learning more about the Balkans, the people who lived there, the people who currently live there, and more!

I guess you didn't understand what I mean, I pointed out the "Romanized" problem. There were resistances and there are resistances when new people try to migrate into an already populated area, just check the minority problems which Europe has.

@ Imperator Invictus: Am I? I would be If I were the one who takes Gesta Hungarorum as a fact, which was written after the invasion by 300 years. We clearly don't know what happened there and then, because there are so few written sources about this matter. We have a few mystical names, exaggerated numbers and some unknown places. Do you believe that the Huns and the Magyars were relatives? And the Székelys came into the Carpathian Basin with the Huns? There many-many things which are highly questionable about Anonymus and his work, yet there are nationalist historians in both Hungary and Romania who take his words as facts, which is sad and I'm sad that there are even professors at our university who think this way.

[Imperator Invictus]

We clearly don't know what happened there and then, because there are so few written sources about this matter. We have a few mystical names, exaggerated numbers and some unknown places.

Outch, that hurt. Anyway, I don’t want to start another Hungarian-Romanian war on this forum especially because I agree with all your Hungarian’s original statements:
1. Trianon suppressed the will of nations
2. the border between our countries is unjust
3. Romanian ethno genesis was south of the Danube

My motives:
1. Trianon suppressed the will of nations …because the people of Transylvania already gathered at Alba-Iulia in 1918 and proclaimed the union with the rest of Romanian provinces and that should have been enough so that treaty was unnecessary
2. the border between our countries is unjust … because Tisa river is a bit west
3. Romanian ethno genesis was south of the Danube … as well as north, because we are not just Latinized Dacians, we are Latinized Thracians who lived south of the Danube as well.

I hope you are not offended because I’ve presented the real facts in a humorous way.

[Krusader]

This is a ****storm waiting to happen. The discussion has nothing to do with EB1 or 2 and the comments are already veering towards "Youtube Balkans Comments" category.

Take it to the Backroom, where it belongs.