There's challenging, and then there's.....

I know that the idea of the game is to offer more of a challenge (as well as being more historically accurate - which it certainly is...this is the only reason I got R:TW :2thumbsup:) but..... Having played a number of pretty succesful Romani campaigns (roleplaying, as best as I could), and then having to re-install EB because of bugs (all sorted now I think. I hope) I'd tried a couple of campaigns on VH/M. Koinon Hellenon and Makedonia. With the Koinon I was interested in the well-thought out government system (basically you play as two factions, and a 'helpful' ally.... Having come across the huge, multi-stack armies of Makedonia during this campaign I thought...hmmm, a real alternative to the might of Rome.

Ahem...now, as I said, I know the idea is to be challenged but..., is being economically crippled really a challenge? (and with the Koinon you are economically and militirarily disadvantaged) And..., where did the historical aspect go? Surely the only reason for Rhodos being in the KH is because of the aid they supplied to Athens.... What they are in the KH is a huge drain on your economy.

So, then you get to the Makedons and....where have those huge armies gone? Pella's left unguarded, so Epirus attacks. OK...so, they'll hold out until my relief force can crawl its way up the map.., so you're half way there and....oh, Corinth is under attack now. OK...then.., Epirus attacks your walls..., but I'm confident, there's enough of a force in the city to hold-out, just need to stop the rams and.....what's this? The gates are open? The gates of Pella have, by subterfuge, been opened to the Epirus? The gates of the Makedonian capital, the heartland of Makedonian power have been opened by agents within....

Kinda puts the idea of 'roleplaying' on the ground and stamps all over it....

Any suggestions as to how to overcome these factors?

Actually, I think the portrayal of the KH is brilliant. Problems with hoplilte dominant armies vs sarissa-phalanx armies? Check. Crap cavalry? Check. Disastrous foreign policy as a result of impractical ideals of Greek freedom? Check. A poor heartland unless you can actually make yourself the center of sea trade? Check. Rhodos being the economic engine to the mainland's source of troops? Pretty good. (I have no idea what you mean about them being a drain on the economy. In my campaign they gave the most tax revenue and the most trade revenue - and that only improved when you get to trade with Halicarnassus.)

The Antigonid dynasty never held all of mainland Greece, and Pyrrhus did march into Macedonia proper and make a play for the crown... so... well what's the problem? Lol.

The only big ahistorical problem with the KH is that it doesn't fracture and disappear if the player achieves real military success. The KH was economically and militarily crippled in history, so that's good. Rhodos was really the only player among the KH homelands in our time-frame. And that was just in terms of trade, some naval power, and maintaining independence for awhile. If you conquered Hellas all the way up to Pella, you're already beyond any historical segment of the campaign - now its just a question of how far you want to take the independent Greek city-state alliance fantasy world.

You should take it as a role-playing miracle that the gates of Pella were opened. The local Makedonian notables probably would have been happy to do so to get rid of the effeminate southerners in favor of a dynasty that would respect their traditional privileges.

In 272 BC Epeiros had marched into Macedonia and occupied big parts of it, so the fact that a big army of them is standing near Pella is just historical correct.
You had bad luck I would say. Often Epeiros doesn't attack with his army in the first few turns and spies nearly never open gates.
But where's your problem? Do you think you are unable to reconquer Makedonia? I don't know if you are a good Strategos, I'm able to conquer greece with the macedon starting armies. You should be able to reconquer something with the army that starts near Athenai. If not I would suggest you play the harder factions with lower difficulty then very hard.
Or you can cheat. I know, cheating is bad, but the western greeks all become really easy if you conquered greece and you can't change difficulty mid-game IIRC.

Oh and don't think a city has bad income just because the info on the campaign map suggest that. A city pays upkeep depending on its population. Because Rhodos is the biggest starting city of the Koinon Hellenon it pays the biggest part of the upkeep of your army, but without it this would be paid by Athenai and Sparte.

Just a minor note: the income of each settlement depends on what this settlement produces (farming, mining, trade) minus a percentage of the expenses of your faction that corresponds to the settlement's population. (that was not a very clear way to say it, was it? :sweatdrop: )
In other words, the fact that Rhodos has negative income does not mean that you are actually losing money from owning the province, it just reflects that at the start of the campaign Rhodos is more populous than Athenai or Sparte, so most of your army's upkeep, your generals' salaries etc are paid from the city's coffers, even if those units were not produced in Rhodos.

About your other concerns: Well, as others have pointed out before, playing as KH in the early stages you have to make good use of your generals' bodyguards (they reign supreme on the battlefield) to compensate for your lack of macedonian phalanxes. For example you can pin the phalanxes from the frond with your Epilektoi Hoplitai and flank them with whatever you have. Also use your higher mobility to create local numerical superiority. As for playing as the Makedonai... The team wanted you to make a strategic decision from the first turn: Do I defend my southern greek conquests or do I retreat to face Pyrrhos?

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Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

I know that the idea of the game is to offer more of a challenge (as well as being more historically accurate - which it certainly is...this is the only reason I got R:TW :2thumbsup:) but..... Having played a number of pretty succesful Romani campaigns (roleplaying, as best as I could), and then having to re-install EB because of bugs (all sorted now I think. I hope) I'd tried a couple of campaigns on VH/M. Koinon Hellenon and Makedonia. With the Koinon I was interested in the well-thought out government system (basically you play as two factions, and a 'helpful' ally.... Having come across the huge, multi-stack armies of Makedonia during this campaign I thought...hmmm, a real alternative to the might of Rome.

Ahem...now, as I said, I know the idea is to be challenged but..., is being economically crippled really a challenge? (and with the Koinon you are economically and militirarily disadvantaged) And..., where did the historical aspect go? Surely the only reason for Rhodos being in the KH is because of the aid they supplied to Athens.... What they are in the KH is a huge drain on your economy.

So, then you get to the Makedons and....where have those huge armies gone? Pella's left unguarded, so Epirus attacks. OK...so, they'll hold out until my relief force can crawl its way up the map.., so you're half way there and....oh, Corinth is under attack now. OK...then.., Epirus attacks your walls..., but I'm confident, there's enough of a force in the city to hold-out, just need to stop the rams and.....what's this? The gates are open? The gates of Pella have, by subterfuge, been opened to the Epirus? The gates of the Makedonian capital, the heartland of Makedonian power have been opened by agents within....

Kinda puts the idea of 'roleplaying' on the ground and stamps all over it....

Any suggestions as to how to overcome these factors?

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A couple of points...As others have said, pay no heed to the ficticious figure for income on the city icon. This includes a per capita division of army pay. E.g. A city of 12,000 will pay 12 times the amount of a city of a thousand populace. To find the TRUE income for a city, use the "settlement details" screen. At the beginning of the game, Rhodes is probably 50% of your total income (tax and trade) as The KH.

Secondly, and note this is mine and a good amount of others opinions, DO NOT play on VH if you intend to roleplay. The VH/M setting is in theory designed to discourage blitzing of the map (when in fact all it really does, is to ENCOURAGE blitzing the map, even making it a necessity, but that's a topic on it's own.....)

M/M is the best setting for a balanced roleplay orientated game.

You also as noted by others, had some unlucky circumstances in the first few turns. I'd say try again on M/M, and see the difference (one of the first things you'll notice, is that the ai stacks aren't around 70% mercs, and actually their own faction troops). You may find you have to invent some "house rules" to limit yourself on M/M, but then that goes with the RP element..

All perfectly reasonable answers.... Yes, I know that as the Makedonians I have to make that tactical choice (I knew, as I set my armies off toward Pella, that Corinth would come under siege)...but..., I was just letting off steam, really. I'm poised to make the Epirus pay for their impudence, and the defenders of Pella made sure that it's taking was a costly act (got my cavalry and slingers out of the city walls and hacked down four routed units, and depleted the remainder until they could do no more...)

As I say, I can understand that I shouldn't expect to be swimming in money but.., with both factions (but particularly with the KH) your not just financially disadvantaged, you're absolutely crippled. I expect to lose Athens (I'd be disappointed if I didn't, frankly...) but, then I've got this piddling little army in Sparte, that I can't build upon because I'm so rapidly in debt - and even if I try and recruit units in the first season I might get one before that huge stack comes and besieges Sparte... then I fight one battle and win, then am instantly attacked by another army, manage to win and then a third army attacks the pitiful remnants of my forces and....there's only so much you can do.

Perhaps I've just been unlucky, but I've tried numerous strategies.... I generally bring the army back from Krete. I've tried shipping a relief army to Athens (no land-route, without hitting Corinth on the way) and that's a disaster. Tried combining my armies outside of Sparte, tried splitting my armies outside of Sparte, tried combining my armies in Sparte - the size and number of the armies that are sent against you - in such a short space of time - are just too much when you can't replenish your forces.

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I guess its the difficulty level, as you say, that skews everything (and, as you say, almost enforces blitzing, as the only way to build up an economy..) I only started playing VH/M after reading that this was the recommended level....and it works great if you play a Romani campaign - where M/M is just way too easy.

I just wonder whether it wouldn't have been better if the KH had, instead, been a longer lived faction, like the Aitolian League, or the Aechaen... but then, I suppose one could roleplay as Sparte...with Rhodos as an ally :shrug: :beam:

But, cheers...I'll give them a go on M/M

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Originally Posted by Rahl

Oh and don't think a city has bad income just because the info on the campaign map suggest that. A city pays upkeep depending on its population. Because Rhodos is the biggest starting city of the Koinon Hellenon it pays the biggest part of the upkeep of your army, but without it this would be paid by Athenai and Sparte.

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This makes sense...for some reason I'd got it into my head that it was the Capital that payed the biggest costs... doh.

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Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

All perfectly reasonable answers.... Yes, I know that as the Makedonians I have to make that tactical choice (I knew, as I set my armies off toward Pella, that Corinth would come under siege)...but..., I was just letting off steam, really. I'm poised to make the Epirus pay for their impudence, and the defenders of Pella made sure that it's taking was a costly act (got my cavalry and slingers out of the city walls and hacked down four routed units, and depleted the remainder until they could do no more...)

As I say, I can understand that I shouldn't expect to be swimming in money but.., with both factions (but particularly with the KH) your not just financially disadvantaged, you're absolutely crippled. I expect to lose Athens (I'd be disappointed if I didn't, frankly...) but, then I've got this piddling little army in Sparte, that I can't build upon because I'm so rapidly in debt - and even if I try and recruit units in the first season I might get one before that huge stack comes and besieges Sparte... then I fight one battle and win, then am instantly attacked by another army, manage to win and then a third army attacks the pitiful remnants of my forces and....there's only so much you can do.

Perhaps I've just been unlucky, but I've tried numerous strategies.... I generally bring the army back from Krete. I've tried shipping a relief army to Athens (no land-route, without hitting Corinth on the way) and that's a disaster. Tried combining my armies outside of Sparte, tried splitting my armies outside of Sparte, tried combining my armies in Sparte - the size and number of the armies that are sent against you - in such a short space of time - are just too much when you can't replenish your forces.

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:)

Btw, something just struck me. Was it definetly a spy? Or was it the fact that Epiros start with an Elephant unit, and therefore don't need to siege? Armies with Elephants can often catch you unawares in that way. (Huge mobile siege rams)....

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Originally Posted by Drewski

:)

Btw, something just struck me. Was it definetly a spy? Or was it the fact that Epiros start with an Elephant unit, and therefore don't need to siege? Armies with Elephants can often catch you unawares in that way. (Huge mobile siege rams)....

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Well, the gates were just open..., so maybe the elephant had bashed the gate in when no-one was looking and was hiding somewhere..., in the long grass? :beam:

I've been hit with elephants before (on EB, not in real-life), and it is a bit of a shock....

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Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

Well, the gates were just open..., so maybe the elephant had bashed the gate in when no-one was looking and was hiding somewhere..., in the long grass? :beam:

I've been hit with elephants before (on EB, not in real-life), and it is a bit of a shock....

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Invisible stealth elephants....hmmm ;) Reminds me of an early X-Files episode......anyways, you may have inspired me to crack open some vino and fire up a new KH campaign.....

Good Luck with your own:)

In my KH campaign (my first EB single player campaign victory, woot) I took Crete with the army that's there on the first turn (actually I didn't expect to win, but I noticed the army only after I disbanded my fleet... :sweatdrop:). Go Spartans. And crappy sallying AI.

Then I also disbanded everything I had on Rhodos except the family member, and the same on Crete (in retrospect, I probably would have saved a ship to evacuate the Crete army except one garrison unit, since those Spartan bodyguards need to die in glorious battle early. SOOOOOOO expensive.

I'd recruited one unit in Sparta, and just sort of sat there worried with my southern army. The key to the campaign is that even though Epirus simply refused to attack Macedon, the Makedones couldn't take Athens with its garrison. They assaulted the walls time and time again, but pantodapoi phalangitai and akontistai don't do that well going up ladders against KH generals.

After 3 or 4 failed sieges, they sent the Corinth garrison to join the next one, I took Corinth with the Spartan army, then Chalkis during a lull with my combined army, and then my campaign went nowhere for about 20 years when Halicarnassus revolted and I was intimately involved with a general brouhaha in Anatolia, virtually unable to hold a city, but investing in levies and mercenaries and benefiting from revolts, taking and trading cities with Makedon, AS, and even Pontus.

That was intensely fun (if in retrospect strategically fail) until Makedon did something stupid and wasted their armies taking Thermon. I picked up Thermon and Demetrius from the disaster, and the campaign entered the middle stages...

I like to use the army on Crete to conquer Crete... that gives you another nice safe source of income (naval trade rules) that needs only a 1 unit garrison. After that your main mission is to take Corinth by hook or by crook. Once you hit that magic 5 province number you should be secure and actually from then on it gets increasingly easy as Classical hoplites + Peltasts = win versus phalanx based armies.

I had to resort to an exploit when playing KH.

The Macedonians kept wanting to besiege Athens. So I used a trick to beat them - sally out immediately with my garrison! Sounds suicidal. But...when the battle started, I had a unit of slingers and a unit of archers on the wall, sited in the right hand corner of the wall facing the enemy. Whenever you sally out of Athens, the stupid AI repositions its troops from facing the main gate to their left (your right). And to do this, they have to run parallel to the wall - on which my missile troops were standing.

My slingers and archers just shot the Macedonian buggers in the back as they ran to their new positions, killing dozens of them! And the slingers have such good range when they're on the wall that they can usually hit a few enemy units even after they've redeployed! (Cretan archers are also excellent for long-range shooting if you can get them.)

Then I sent my skirmishers and hoplites out of the gate. Deployed, and moved close enough to the enemy to get their attention. The idea was to make the Maks chase after me, into range of the missile troops on the wall. Skirmishers were good at this. Worked like a charm, lured the enemy into the killing zone below the wall, hoplites killed them from the front, missile troops killed them from above. Eventually the enemy got so depleted I could beat them with a head on attack with my hoplites, even they outnumbered me 3 to 1 at the start. It was great!

Keep a small, but well balanced army in Athens, and sally out when you're besieged. You'd be surprised how successful you can be!

I found the KH incredibly easy actually. Defend Athens and take Corinth, not truly that difficult with your Spartan bodyguards who rule the city battles against Makedon. Its tougher in field battles when Macedon can deploy cavalry.