-- no mods to make the Mongols realistic, in-universe? They're TOO TOUGH!

So recently returned again to MTW2... Playing as HRE, on Medium. Having a blast. Ruling Europe.

Then the friggen Mongols invade Russia. And I'm holding Kiev. Had 3-4 fully upgraded, top-tier mixed unit stacks waiting for them. (and lots more en route)

For crissakes!!!

My hardened steel blades can't penetrate their leather armor.
Their wooden arrows shatter my plate steel armor.
Their Calvary slam straight into fully upgraded Pike militia w/o a scratch.
Every one of their units fights to the very last man.

ENOUGH! I can't take it anymore! I've beaten 4-5 of their stacks, but they got at least 6 more. THIS IS NOT ENJOYABLE!
:furious3:

Every stack of theirs I beat takes at least 1/2 of mine. (I already had 52 provinces, so just gave up, sacked Rome, and 'won' the game)

I've looked and cannot find a single mod anywhere making the Mongols more realistic (ie, not invulnerable supermen)

Help?

:embarassed:

Its that silver and gold chevronned units. I think it was a way to make the Mongols more of a challenge. The only reason you were able to do something against them was because you PREPARED for them. You expected their arrival. I'm not sure much of Europe truly expected the Mongols (and Genghis really was a friggin military genius, or so I've heard).

Anyway as the HRE, why didn't you have quite a few Pavise Crossbowmen in your armies? Those crossbows CAN puncture them with its armor piercing bonus.

That's why I just gave up Kiev when I played as Hungary. I pulled back to the river crossings and just kept killing them at the river crossings (as they were bound to do). Eventually they only have a few armies left and just Kiev

Yep, the trick with the Mongols is never to go 1v1 against them but choose battles to fight to your advantage.

River-crossings are the major points you should look for (and bring as many Xbows and artillery as possible...). Use the bridge to bottle-neck them and fire away...

Defending sieges against them can also be a good way to fend them off. The Mongol cavalry loses one of its most fearsome capability in city streets or below walls : maneuverability...

For more advice, use the search engine and you'll find a few thread related to ways of defeating the Mongols...

They're tough for sure but not unbeatable... (as they were meant to be...). And I think you still manage quite well against them... You're scoring victories nevermind the odds !!

Thanks for the feedback gents.

Yeah, I've seen a thread or two on strategy vs the Mongols...

I actually kinda "gave up" on the HRE (all I was gonna do anyhow was defeat the Mongols then take a few more provinces before retiring them) and started a new campaign as Venice, as I've never played as them before. I'll be sure to get Kiev and be ready at the bridges... Though damn Turkey is gonna make me fight, which means I'll probably end up have to deal with the Timurids as well in anatolia.

Something I noticed both this play-through, and recalled from way-back-when, is that both the Mongols and the Timurids seem to utterly ignore most of the AI and go completely out of their way to seek me out LOL!

:inquisitive:

You know the way they go is weird sometimes. When I played as Hungary, I was pushing east against Russia when the Mongols showed up, they moved north of the Black Sea. When I played as Russia they went through Asia Minor, on the south side of the Black Sea. I guess its just sporadic.

Venice is fun! I love how they are so spread out at the start, I viewed them as a serious challenge (plus you're one of the factions that can get cardinals early, converting Orthodox Byzantines to Catholicism). In the middle game they have some of the best units, Pavise Crossbow Militia, Venetian Heavy Infantry, Venetian Archers.

If you use the right army you can. As Hungary I went all Pavise Crossbowmen armies and was able to devestate them. I'd lose maybe about a quarter of my army to almost their entire army, mostly due to lancer charges. I would space them in the checkerboard formation, to allow for "low angle" direct shots with the crossbow (kills better).

Playing as Venice, I've not had less than 4 nations attacking me, and have had 8 enemies (counting Rebels) for the latter half of the campaign.

The Mongols entered NE of Kiev, then turned around, at least for now. IDK where they went.

Also, managed the ol' "kill an official" tactic by forcing a Turk Diplomat (or Merchant ?) into a square w/o movement, then moved my combat units into his square... it killed him. (forgot that would happen).
:laugh4:


I tell ya, every single faction, ones that have hated each other since they crawled out of the slime, have joined forces just to oppose me. Somehow, I'm beating them back. The Mongols have arrived, yet I'm still using tier-2 units, cause I've not been able to advance due to constant warfare.

Good thing the Mongols turned around.

:sweatdrop:

I defeated stack after stack of Mongols that were attacking the same castle over and over again. Put an end to their rampage of the eastern part of the map. The timurids moved thru the turks territory doing nothing and went straight for Constantinople (which I held as the French) and they were a pain to get rid of. Must have lost several stacks of my own getting rid of them. I haven't played as the turks or egyptians yet because I am afraid of fighting the Mongols and Timurids when they are fresh and my armies/infrastructure are underdeveloped!

Mongol Infantry with 3 silver chevrons = 13 attack (8 ranged) and 18 defence
Mongol Heavy Cavarly with 3 silver chevrons = 10 attack (8 ranged), 4 charge, 17 defence

They arent that bad... The real problem is the 8-10 dread generals leading them.

Well, I'm somewhere around turn 105... the Mongols never did re-enter the picture.

I've actually had NINE factions constantly at war with me since forever. (and this after eliminating Hungary).

I could take all of the Turk's lands, but fear taking the brunt the Timurids. Then again, the AI will probably ignore common sense, not even touch the Turks, and do what it wants, ie come straight for me wherever I am.

One thing I don't miss about this game (besides all the calvary charge issues) is this nonsense of catapults REFUSING TO FIRE!
:furious3:

Man, is that frustrating!

Update:

...the Mongols returned, I held Iasi (and the 2 bridges) and easily fought them off using the bridge/bottleneck method.

The Mongols are now thinned out and holding Kiev and maybe something north; they're no longer a threat.


Now for the Timurids...

:sick:

Hmm... too tough? They're annoying I'll give you that, my problem when I encountered them (playing English) was that they didn't attack my cities so I couldn't fend them off at a siege they just kept going west, so I had to chase them down in the open planes south of Ryazan. Fighting massive amounts of horsearchers in the open field...very annoying. And it doesn't help that they huddle together so that you can rarely attack less than three stacks at a time.

I assume that they don't attack the eastern cities because they are supposed to invade Europe and with the stacks the computer seem to like to assemble in the higher difficulties the massive stacks of the Mongol's wouldn't get far if they meddled with the computer first. I captured both Sarkel and Bulgar before they could get to them, but didn't have the forces to defend all river crossings :/ the ones I held along with the settlements were ignored, probably a smart move with English longbowmen on the defending side. ;)

It's the only time I've encounterd the Mongol's though, I played the Danes after that, but I had tired of it by the time they emerged in Bagdadh, which was the Turk's last settlement and the Egyptians had loas all coast settlements and then some, so I took Jerusalem and was done with it.

Trying Milan now, fairly sure their insane pavise crossbow militia will make shischkebab of any horsearcher army though. The danes would probably have had a much harder time, especially in the desert, the War clerics heavy armour may make for good protection from arrows, but not from heat...

Alrik, the Mongols are basically hard coded to 'home' in on different cities (Usually Kiev or Antioch depending on where they appear). They tend to ignore most of the rest (though occasionally they'll sack a city and then move on).

In my opinion, the best places to fight the Mongols are cities. If you manage to light the ram on fire before it knocks down your gate it forces them to use their sub-par infantry to take walls. You can kill a lot of Mongols on the walls...

I also find the mongols hard,as the Byzantines,being that I use the Vanilla Mod to take the game just a bit harder,and the Mongols seem to have a habit of showing up during my war with the Turks,before i have the infrastructure to support attrition tactics against them.

So they bulldoze the turks,then proceed to take everything up to Cons which they can't attack as I have a fleet blockading the strait,but it doesn't matter by this point as I depend on the cities they took for my income,as loosing those puts me in the hole to the tune of around -10k per turn..

Your problem, oz, is not really the Mongols but the fact that the Turks are still kicking so far into the campaign... :-)

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Your problem, oz, is not really the Mongols but the fact that the Turks are still kicking so far into the campaign... :-)

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Yeah with with Vanilla mod they get something like a +300o bonus income every turn so they can fields much bigger HA armies,plus Venice is being an annoying nuisance as usual,so dealing with both at once is somewhat challenging on Hard/hard.

Their initial armies and generals are a menace, but the replacements are no more or less difficult than your own 2nd and 3rd tier stuff.

Easiest way is to occupy a fortress or citadel where you know they will attack. Have cannon towers if possible. Have stake archers (worth swinging through Italy/France to purchase if your faction doesn't field any normally. Stake the gate they'll break through and then pile up horsies. Takes a while, but this will eventually gut their uber-troops. Standard tactics with pav-cross and heavy cavalry will easily suffice for the normal replacement troops and the few hordling remnants.

The issue I have with Mongols is the way their stacks clump together. It’s hard to engage just one army at a time and fighting several results in way too many troops in the battle for my machine to handle gracefully. What I get is an 8000 man slideshow.

The clumping does make it more of a challenge, not that a challenge is unwelcome. In my current game as Byzantium (H/H) the Mongols eventually took Kiev from the Russians in about turn 118. I was expecting the usual break up of their forces and was looking forward to introducing them to my cannon towers at Isai and, if necessary, Bran (that is if they managed to force the nearby bridges in the face of a couple of stacks I had guarding them).

But no - for once they have stayed clumped around Kiev. Clearly these are new peaceful Mongols who, now they have their homeland, simply wish to be left alone. Clearly I cannot have that so have had to send one of my "defend a bridge" stacks to them - the indignity!

I did manage to lure them a little way from their city by stationing an army on the river crossing north of Kiev. I had not been paying enough attention as my army was rather light on holding infantry (just 1 unit of that most excellent of Byzantium units - the spearmen and 2 dismounted lancers). I wiped out the first and 2nd stacks thanks to massed guard archers and a remarkably effective catapult, with a general and 3 vards charging into any breaches in the line.

However when the Mongols decided to throw another full stack in my direction in the same turn at a point where I had no infantry left and my guard archers were at 2 thirds strength I decided it was time to save and go to bed. The trouble is that even if I somehow manage to throw this army back there are still 2 other full stacks in range. Do I keep on fighting to inflict as many casualties as possible or retreat with what is left.

Mongols tough? pfui. Playing as England, I,ve had no great problems with them....usually encounter them up by the Baltic, so have castles at Hamburg, Stettin & magdeburg to whack them from.

It's the snecking Timurids I can't hack, whatever I try I go in with a two to one advantage and still get minced. I am really not convinced by by cannon-mounting elephants, and deeply resent having to deal with elephant troops in the frozen north!

I've been playing the darth mod, which I prefer to all the others because it basically feels the same as vanilla with alot of the improvements you'd want.

the pike units actually work, they don't drop their pikes ! That will help fighting the mongols, most especially when they attack a city and your garrison.

I usually find that with the Mongols being so damned difficult, it merely adds more of a challenge. I usually find with mongols, unless you are defending a city, that you shoulddn't even bother with infantry units in a field army. My armies to defeat mongols are purely archers and cavalry. Expect to lose the first few battles, but your aim is the Phyrric victory - try not to focus on winning the battle but to rid them of their numbers.. so even if you lose 600 men in battle, but you've taken down 400 of theirs - rejoice, victory is near =)

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Originally Posted by A Nerd

I haven't played as the turks or egyptians yet because I am afraid of fighting the Mongols and Timurids when they are fresh and my armies/infrastructure are underdeveloped!

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I can't speak for the Egyptians(the utter lack of quality infantry through-out the first 50 turns or so bothers me to no end. And no, Saracen Militia don't cut the mustard), but my experience with the Turks against the mongols has been fairly mild. The one thing to remember when you kick off a Turk campaign is that You are the epi-center for the Mongol Invasion: they will, more likely than not, be knocking at your door first. So you have to move swiftly and take over pretty much the entire middle-east.

It's not difficult, as you can often get Acre by turn 15 or so. They idea is to spam out Ottoman infantry and rely on the numerous Rivers to stop the mongols. Around turn 70 or so, you need to have your house settled(Egyptians conquered, Bizzies on their heels) so you can devote your energy to the mongols.

My current Turk game is on an indefinite break due to hardware constraints, but the only problem I've had is that I bottled the Mongols up in Armenia(the mountain valleys inbetween Adana and Tblisi), and they refuse to face any of the full stacks I have deployed against them. They did Take Tblisi and whatever the city nearby were, but they sacked and moved on, so I just retook each of those settlements. The biggest problem I've had is forcing them to engange me.

Antoich and Iconium should be the two cities you upgrade your Barracks all the way, for access to those insanely good Jannisarry Archers. 4 units of Dismounted Sipahi or Janissary Heavy Infantry will generally cover your anti-lance duties. EVERYTHING else should be Janissary Archers or Otto Infantry. The Janissarry Musketeers are useful too, but I find the stakes of the Archers to be invaluable for protecting your squishies. Not that Otto infantry are really "squishy".

And once you take over the middle east, Turks have sooooo much money that you can afford to keep 4-6 full stacks hanging around. I haven't had much success with using Cavalry armies as the turks, as Sipahi(Archers or Lancers) get murdered by the Heavy Horse Archers and Heavy Lancers. But, I also haven't brought a full stack of'em against the mongols.

The Egyptians shouldn't have a hard time with the mongols: Mameluke Archers with their maces can go toe-to-toe with the Heavies, and your Mamelikes and Royal Mamelukes should be able to out fight the Heavy Lancers. The lack of solid infantry archers in comparison to the turks might hurt, but I think that only means you'll need to rely on your excellent mamelukes, rather than trying to ape the Turkish approach.

But there's one thing to remember: you don't have time. You need to hurry as fast as you can to take the Middle east, or by the time the Mongols show up, you'l lbe fighting the other Middle-East faction and probably some europeans. And that will get you killed.

When I first encountered the Mongols they showed up to the east of Damascus with 7 full armies, led by 7-10 star generals. I was attacking them with Feudal Knights, Knights Hospitaller and a lot of Armoured Sergeants which did not work so well because I lost a lot even though I reduced their numbers!

Then I started building a lot of assassins and kept attacking their generals which was tough because mostly it didn't work but it's worth it if you can kill a few of them. Eventually I killed off all of them but my losses were big and they sacked Antioch too, but I took it back later.

Later on, when they came with their second wave with only 4 armies I had armies with Scots Guard, Aventurier, Noble Knights, Dismounted Noble Knights and Armoured Sergeants and managed to beat them easier than the first time.

I also had Trebuchets and threw fire balls at them, not sure if it was worth it but it was fun! :)

PS. I have still not been invaded by the Timurids and wonder what I should build to encounter them. I am thinking Pikemen, Scots Guard, Lancers / Chivalric Knights and some sort of cannons, maybe Serpentines? Any suggestions? :)

I don't know about infantry, but have some cannon or the like to take out their elephants!

I've changed my opinion about turks against mongols. Use nothing but Cavalry. Sipahi Lancers and Sipahis can run down the infantry and you can generally win like that. And if you get Qapakulu(I managed to get my Qapakulu built by the time I routed the first mongol invasion), it's pretty easy:
1 General, 3 Qapakulu, and fill the rest with Sipahi and Sipahi lancers. I prefer to go heavy on the lancers, so I can smash the mongols in melee quickly. And then, it's pretty much textbook to defeat them.

One of my more recent "tricks" for dealing with them(well, when I was dealing with them, i.e. prior to turn 120), is to use a goodly sized infantry stack as bait. Drawing one or two of their armies into the open so you can pounce on it by itself is pretty ace.

But Cavalry are, apparently, the answer.

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Originally Posted by A Nerd

I don't know about infantry, but have some cannon or the like to take out their elephants!

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Javelin troops are also extremely effective against elephants of all types. If you can get some Jinetes around the back and shower the jumbos with pointy sticks you'll find they rout and go postal fairly quickly, taking out huge numbers of their supporting infantry as they do so.