Strictly in theory. Works better, being liked doesn't pay the bills. Even in moderation we aren't that nice, school and work can be hell. So what is it that sets us apart. Being nice (and if you aren't)
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Strictly in theory. Works better, being liked doesn't pay the bills. Even in moderation we aren't that nice, school and work can be hell. So what is it that sets us apart. Being nice (and if you aren't)
Someday you will not be in such a powerful and comfortable position and then you will wish you had stepped on a few less necks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
If one does not wish to follow the golden rule one can at least take solace in the fact that being kind is sort of like an insurance policy for oneself if said person to fall on hard times.
I disagree with the opening statement on every conceivable level.
EDIT: but I'll leave you a question:
Why be cruel, when you can get the same by being nice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
If you lived in a poorer region of the world like say Borneo or some place in Africa you might not have such opinions.
We have a concept in Ireland called Meitheal
Despite the poverty and there obvious hard life those people in Africa etc help other people all the time.Quote:
Meitheal (Irish pronunciation: [ˈmɛhəl]) is the Irish word for a work team, gang, or party and denotes the co-operative labour system in rural Ireland where groups of neighbours help each other in turn with farming work, such as harvesting crops.[1] Neighbours who give their work to others are helped in turn with their own heavy seasonal tasks so the heart of the concept is community unity through cooperative work and mutually reciprocal support. Meitheal is the Irish expression of the ancient and universal appliance of cooperation to social need.
The term is used in various writings of Irish language authors. It can convey the idea of community spirit in which neighbours respond to each other's needs. In modern use, for example, a meitheal could be a party of neighbours and friends invited to help decorate a house in exchange for food and drink, or in scouting, where volunteer campsite wardens maintain campsites around Ireland.
To get to the top you need to kiss a lot of bottom.
Beware the arse you need to kiss tomorrow might be connected to the toes you tread on today.
Very, very few people operate in isolation. When things go well you might get away with such behaviour, but it means the difference between when a mistake is made getting a warning and getting sacked; chatting to someone in the office and being done for sexual discrimination.
So many times at work I have been helped by colleagues because they wanted to, not because they had to. If I'd been a bastard they could have let me hang.
~:smoking:
I said in my OP that it was strictly theoratical, aka not my views
For what it's worth, your OP currently states "theologically".Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
My apologiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
that's ok np. But isn't cruelty a stronger force than kindness, it's easier to get forgiveness than permissionQuote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
edit my bad, it suggests words took the wrong one
I wouldn't call cruelty stronger, just a different way to obtain certain results, in the short term at least... But all depends of the environment we are applying it, I'm thinking about the office too and have enough examples of cruelty at management already, here in small companies is very common to advance positions just crapping in your co-workers heads.
I think or want to believe, at some point in these peoples lives, their will need to pay for it, one way or another, call it karma, divine justice or just Riedquat's revenge.
You have said it, its easier to get forgiveness...but how many cruel people have you seen looking for it? Umm...
un hombre de honor nunca debe olvida lo que es porque se lee que otros hombres están
or something like that :)
To make it short - What goes around, comes around (and often harder).
I could elaborate, but I prefer to think that the people around me are not as stupid as I think.
Fragony, you are going to be visited by three ghosts this Christmas, at the current rate.
The older I get, the more I realize "HELL" is having to live with yourself. We acquire friends and family to buffer ourselves from that simple basic fact that "We don't like ourselves very much"... with good reason.
Being nice, at least as we believe we're being nice, at least makes the memories tolerable. Sure, it's easy to be a ***^#** person and get what you want... but what is a clean conscience worth?
I'm 40, and I wake up aghast and agog at crap I did in middle school. And I wasn't a bully! Consciences suck! As well they should!
By the way, perhaps I should have put this one into D.A.'s "Drunkard's" thread, as I'm coming home from my office Christmas party... and having a rather nasty crisis of conscience. Hopefully alcohol induced....
In the end (at least IMHO, but that is of course a matter of perspective) being nice is simply "more fun". being nice/cruel usually goes hand in hand with a mindset of generally expecting the same from others - I do not think you will see an awful lot of people taking the "cruel" road that are content and happy with their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
In the most simple theoretical cost/benefit terms, cruelty works only if you are undisputed and it is a cause for others to challenge you. There's a long term hidden cost.
Kindness just works and is a cause for others to support you. There's a long term interest.
Or: if you are a member of a social species you rely on other members not to hurt you more than they help you. If they breach that unspoken agreement it is time for being vicious.
Nice one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
What if someone is undisputed? And there may be a long term cost, but why not be cruel in an isolated instance that no one will remember (say, on vacation)? I think that's a problem with the "it goes around", karma, conscience explanations of why it's wrong. Can you show that there aren't a lot of people who do cruel things and don't regret it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
I think the dilemma involves getting something you (will) want (if not now then in some future), from someone else/others and taking this into account in general decision making. This is not about being sadist or saint, it is also not about opportunistic behaviour but more general decision making. So to say “no one will remember” is odd: who are you being cruel -or kind- to if not the victim/beneficiary of your choice, why should this pattern go unnoticed over the long term?
Who said it's a pattern?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Let's say I go on vacation alone, don't tip at the restaurant, act rude to the cab driver, find a wallet take the money and ditch it instead of trying to return it, etc etc then go back to my home 2000 miles away. Nothing is going to "come around" to bite me--none of my social acquaintances (who I'm always nice to) know. So that reason fails. And I find the assertion that everyone will feel the pangs of conscience to a significant degree doubtful. People are good at rationalizations.
How about someone in a racist town who is polite to the white people and cruel to the black people? Is that going to come back to bite him socially? Is he going to feel guilty about it given his upbringing? Doing the right thing would come back to bite him socially.
Basically, if your reason for being nice is some form of "what goes around comes around" what do you say to my racist? Rejecting the beliefs of the group you belong to will "come around" as well. Telling them they are immoral will "come around". So that reason just leads to "be nice to some groups, be cruel to others, based on what's socially accepted".
Assuming that there is generally a choice between cruel & nice to make to get what you want to get, yes someone is going to classify you either as “cruel” or as “nice”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
And what did you want to get out of your hypothetical cruelty here? That's the whole premise of the thread: there's something you desire to be had.Quote:
Let's say I go on vacation alone, don't tip at the restaurant, act rude to the cab driver, find a wallet take the money and ditch it instead of trying to return it, etc etc then go back to my home 2000 miles away. Nothing is going to "come around" to bite me--none of my social acquaintances (who I'm always nice to) know. So that reason fails. And I find the assertion that everyone will feel the pangs of conscience to a significant degree doubtful. People are good at rationalizations.
How about someone in a racist town who is polite to the white people and cruel to the black people? Is that going to come back to bite him socially? Is he going to feel guilty about it given his upbringing? Doing the right thing would come back to bite him socially.
Basically, if your reason for being nice is some form of "what goes around comes around" what do you say to my racist? Rejecting the beliefs of the group you belong to will "come around" as well. Telling them they are immoral will "come around". So that reason just leads to "be nice to some groups, be cruel to others, based on what's socially accepted".
EDIT: I should perhaps add that I think the topic is really in the title which is a general question quite devoid of specific circumstances. A choice of heuristic in getting what you want: being nice or being cruel, and why would anyone choose the former?
Good example. I'm with the German it's nicer to be nice and I really like to think that I'm nice, and I am pretty sure I'm right about that.
But not being nice does pay off, you need to do it, and nice people don't, but you can grab a year's salary in a day, crime pays
My question is rather on society
I don't think it answers why we should be generally nice either. The racist town example is case in point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
And if it only justifies "generally", surely it's inadequate? And if there is a reason for being nice in the examples that aren't covered by "generally", wouldn't that reason apply to all the examples that are?
The karma reason is a fairy tale kind of reason. Like "cheaters never prosper" and others, it really only functions as a persuasive, not as a reason.
Money, social acceptance in one example, and whatever it is people get out of being rude.Quote:
And what did you want to get out of your hypothetical cruelty here? That's the whole premise of the thread: there's something you desire to be had.
It ultimately depends on the situation. Being nice is one thing, but being a push over is something else completely. You can be nice and not a pushover at the same time. There are also the cases of "cruel-to-be-nice" where you do an action which by itself might seem cruel, but with further reasoning and wider-insight, is seen as being very beneficial and nice.
As for Sasaki's example, I was nice to the waiter at the restaurant (it had nice food at a good price as well), next time I went in, there was a queue, so I was going to walk away, and he stopped me and went "I saved you a table, come in.", so I ended up skipping the queue, and pretty much got "VIP" treatment. Obviously ended up tipping him, but he frankly deserved it.
Now, there was another example where some one did really bad service, and he went and asked me for a tip, and I replied "Give up your job and apply some where else, this line of work is not your forté." Was I cruel or was I being nice to the person? After all, I gave him the best tip that night, with that comment.
Cruel and nice don't cover everything. You weren't being cruel or nice in the waiting situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
If you had known you would never be back at the restaurant, wouldn't it have been right to be nice to the waiter in the same way? What's the word for people who are nice with their own gain in their sights (like your waiter possibly), schmoozers?Quote:
As for Sasaki's example, I was nice to the waiter at the restaurant (it had nice food at a good price as well), next time I went in, there was a queue, so I was going to walk away, and he stopped me and went "I saved you a table, come in.", so I ended up skipping the queue, and pretty much got "VIP" treatment. Obviously ended up tipping him, but he frankly deserved it.
Well, the whole career of waiter is a professional schmoozer, basically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro