things we know about Realm Divide

The Realm Divide is kind of a big deal. There is a mod to tone it down, but let's see what we know about the vanilla version.

- It causes an immediate drop of -50 in relations with everyone due to "Realm Divide". This never goes away.

- This will worsen by -5 each turn.

- Any clans not at least "Indifferent" (anyone have a more exact number for this?) with you will declare war without further provocation; you get a "Clan joins your enemies" message.

- Provinces captured after Realm Divide will be more difficult to subdue (higher "resistance to invaders").

- The good news: the effect of "Realm Divide" is capped at -200, which means with a long-term trade agreement, an alliance, some chi arts, and a marriage, you can hold on to an ally or two.

- The less good news: any clans which emerge after the Realm Divide event will initially seem indifferent or even friendly, but will not accept any diplomatic overtures and will promptly declare war the next turn.

- Vassals you create after the event has fired will not be affected.



Triggering conditions for Realm Divide:

- Your clan's reputation bar is filled OR you capture Kyoto.

- The bar fills whenever you capture a province and becomes full when you have 13 provinces (in a 25-province game) or 22 provinces (in a 60 province game) you do something notable like capturing a province or win an offensive heroic victory. [This is unclear so far.]

- It doesn't unfill itself if you stop conquering for a while.

- [Does it go down when you lose a province?]

- The event itself fires when you next conquer a province. It doesn't matter if you proceed to make that province a vassal.

when does it end exactly? this effect

Well it never ends...
And there is no certain province limit I believe. As I've been on the verge of realm divide many times, sometimes it's enough to just win a heroic victory over your enemy to push you to Realm Divide. Luckily defending victories do not seem to affect this, just attacking.

I hit it on taking my 16th province in a short Shimazu campaign on the normal difficulty, so there must be a variable that has an effect of the number of provinces.

I also made the 17th province I conquered a vassel and established trade with them. However, within 2 or 3 turns, they broke our alliance and declared war on me along with everybody else. However, I had read quite a bit about this over at the Total war forum and was pretty much prepared for it.

I had good size armies holding Bitchu and Izumo, which were the two only provinces at the narrowest part of the mainland, so any land attacker had to come through there.

I had 3 or 4 good size navies patrolling the coastlines and that is where I sunk at least four and maybe five invasion fleets carrying full stack armies.
None of them ever made landfall.

Of course my trade went to pot, but I had all the western trade nodes and had built up an economy to still support about 4 to 5k in koku per year.

I took my time conquering Shikoku island and then marched on Kyoto. It wasn't that bad. Of course nobody left would trade or make peace, so i just said---screw it, it's Total War; tell em', I'm a comin' and I'm bringin' hell with me. (with a nod to my favorite western: Tombstone)

Cheers

Taking Kyoto also triggers realm divide. Not sure if it's immediately or after holding it for 4 turns when you become shogun.

You get to keep vassals set up after realm divide hits though. That was my only trade export after realm divide.

Originally Posted by Dead Guy:
You get to keep vassals set up after realm divide hits though. That was my only trade export after realm divide.

Can you confirm this by looking at the diplomacy pane? No growing penalty from the Realm Divide?
If so, this is a great way to get some trade and also a really good way to avoid taking provinces with large castles but small farms - those kill my advance always, as food shortage is quite difficult to deal with if all you have is to build land consolidation (it takes 8 turns and 3.9K, which is a difficult matter after RD).

The way I see it is that if you create a vassal that wasn't previously there (capturing a province from a larger enemy) there are no pre-existing negatives such as dishonoring treaties or others, just the positives. Not sure if Realm Divide still affects them though.
You just need to be very careful not to make vassals in adjacent provinces or they will declare war on each other forcing you to choose a side.

Originally Posted by Zarky:
...no pre-existing negatives such as dishonoring treaties or others, just the positives. Not sure if Realm Divide still affects them though.

Realm divide must affect them, its turn by turn decrease in relations will surely hit any relations you can set up. If not, I'd consider it a bug.

How high has anyone managed to get a relationship going with an ally? Have you managed to keep an ally close for the whole game after the realm divide event?

In my first campaign, a Date short campaign, when I captured my 15th province (+ 3 vassals) everyone bar 2 of my vassals (very friendly before) went DoW. The Ashikaga Shogunate, which was also a vassal (!) of course went DoW. Income went down the gurgler, in a very bad way - 6k to 0. I didn't even know that it was going to happen, so was a bit of a shock.

So I reloaded and didn't take that last province, so I could build up my economy first. A few turns later it happened anyway.

At one stage the Amako had around 18 provinces, and we didn't all go to war with them sadly.

No, Realm Divide does NOT affect vassals that you make emerge after the process has started. The entry isn't even there in the diplomacy. You get like -110 from past grievances and plus about as much from your military alliance, so those basically evens out. I kept a vassal from about 10 turns after Realm Divide until I won the campaign. They didn't like me in the end, but it was due to territorial expansion and not due to Realm Divide.

I "gifted" demand join war from one of my vassals, which was really weird. Relations shot through the roof when they offered to join all my realm divide wars, which they would have automatically on my end of turn anyway...

I used vassals to trade with when I was all alone, and as a buffer zone to hostile lands in some places where I, for strategical reasons, did not want to continue expanding.

In current (3rd) campaign I am playing with the mod that reduces the realm divide over time. I made vassals after the realm divide event and they had no penalty however, interestingly after I took Kyoto and became shogun I have seen a small RD penalty on my vassals. Since it was modded I cannot say if the effect would be greater in vanilla but it does point to a multiplicity of factors causing RD.

I had like ten vassals after RD and they didn't like me in the end because I kept capturing regions. Realm Divide didn't play a role in their attitude to wards me.

An other effect of RD is that new regions captured will stay on four resistance against foreign invaders or something like that. Regions you capture before RD will see a reduction in that department.

Are we sure that winning battles fills the RD bar? Or does it have no effect normally, but is capable of pushing the RD bar "over the edge" when already full?

Originally Posted by quadalpha:
Are we sure that winning battles fills the RD bar? Or does it have no effect normally, but is capable of pushing the RD bar "over the edge" when already full?

I think that only the amount of regions captured and the speed in which they are captured have effect on RD.

I don't know what to tell you, I've been on the verge of Realm Divide and attacking enemy army and winning heroically has set off Realm Divide.
In fact in game if you look at your clan fame, it says that number of provinces, Daimyo honor and great victories all affect clan fame.

Yeah, I noticed that fame can be gained without conquest.

However, that causes all kinds of problems:
Basically, the optimal play would be to conquer as many provinces as you can, without triggering the divide, then stop and build up economy to work without trade (which will be required for after the divide).
The problem is that a high daimyo honour is beneficial, and at least I would like to play with a high honour daimyo more than with a low honour one - however for the optimal play it would be best to keep the daimyo out of battles and keep his honour in the range of 2-3 (just a guess, but that is the "normal" honour that comes without penalties).
Also, a good player is more likely to get great victories and the difficulty level is more likely to cause more battles, which means more victories will happen and that will give you fame which you really don't want.

I suppose it works as a balancing mechanism, but I am not sure which kind of play style it favors; turtle or rush?
If you turtle (not completely passive, but slow expansion) you are more likely relying on trade and having more allies, and you will fight more defensive battles which should not trigger the reputation. For a rush focused game, I can't really guess if it nets more rep per conquered province (just because you might fight more assaults).

How does it decide if a battle is offensive or defensive? It can't be just whether you are attacking or defending, right?

Originally Posted by quadalpha:
How does it decide if a battle is offensive or defensive? It can't be just whether you are attacking or defending, right?

Well I was playing Takeda and very close to realm divide. Hattori declared war on me and moved a stack nearby so I decided to destroy them and attacked. This triggered realm divide.
I reloaded and stayed in my castle, they assaulted me and I beat them back at castle defense, no realm divide.

Originally Posted by quadalpha:
How does it decide if a battle is offensive or defensive? It can't be just whether you are attacking or defending, right?

I really think it is just based on who initiates the battle. I would, however, like to see it done so that it checks where the fight occurs - that way, you could make attacks to defend your own province without being penalized.

I'm in an interesting Realm Divide situation in my Shimazu campaign. When Realm Divide occurred, I maintained my alliance with Chosukabe and another clan to my south, and I was about three provinces away from Kyoto. Now I have just taken Kyoto, and I have a solid eastern front, but my alliances to the south are beginning to weaken. I figure I probably have three or four turns before my allies to the south become enemies, and I have an entire enemy island to contend with right in the soft underbelly of my realm. Chosukabe seem to be pretty aggressive with naval invasions so far, so it looks like I'll be vulnerable to attack all along the southern coast.

Check what the RD penalty is now. It's capped at -200, so if you're close to -200, stop for a few turns (for expansion penalty to go down a bit) and you might get to keep your allies. I found this out from preparing for my ally Tsuitsui to attack me for about 30 turns before realising they're not going to.

That's good to know! Unfortunately, I didn't see your reply until after I finished my game. I managed to conquer the five remaining provinces I needed to win without losing my allies. I found that creating vassals near the end really helped me to get those last few provinces without becoming overstretched or strategically vulnerable. And my Chosukabe allies were kicking some ass on their own, which kept my enemies on their heels.

I just had the realm divide happen out-of-turn without winning a fight. I got a bushido advance (bow mastery tech) though, and I think it might have had an effect on that. My clan fame meter was really really close to max before I ended my turn and it is either that I got the tech, or that I built something that brings fame, or my Daimyo got honour from somewhere (no idea how it could have happened).
I did not fight any battles between the end of turn and the divide event.

Originally Posted by Rothe:
I just had the realm divide happen out-of-turn without winning a fight. I got a bushido advance (bow mastery tech) though, and I think it might have had an effect on that. My clan fame meter was really really close to max before I ended my turn and it is either that I got the tech, or that I built something that brings fame, or my Daimyo got honour from somewhere (no idea how it could have happened).
I did not fight any battles between the end of turn and the divide event.

Did you have any vassals and did they do something? If Realm Divide happens after ending your turn it has to be something someone else does.
I know vassals capturing provinces can launch RD, but not sure if vassals winning heroic victories can affect it too.

Originally Posted by Zarky:
Did you have any vassals and did they do something? If Realm Divide happens after ending your turn it has to be something someone else does.
I know vassals capturing provinces can launch RD, but not sure if vassals winning heroic victories can affect it too.

That might explain it. My vassal took a province.

I learned that occasionally dropping so low as to plunder a town will definitely help with the Realm Divided event. But that does have other side effects.

Also in the one game where I turned on the Christians with the Chosokabe, my allies sticked with me, even though my reputation with them was very negative (for the expansion and the realm divided) and I conquered Kyoto, because it was on the logical path and then they immediately declared war on me.

As the Shimazu, I've found that immediately after RD my vassals stayed with me, even if they weren't all that happy with me. Even my allies the Takeda, who were very happy with me, stuck around for a bit. A few years down the track though, and the Takeda attacked my vassal, and so we were at war. I've also found that my vassals the Amako, who I created shortly before RD, declared a few years after (after taking Echizen, wonder if that made a difference), and the Chokosabe, who I reduced to just Awaji before RD, declared a few years after that. Now the Oichi, my first vassals, are getting unhappy, and I've started to build troops back there.

Sadly I haven't been able to create any marriages between my clan and my vassals, despite my having lots of relos. I must say that I try and create vassals whenever I can now, unless it's a particularly rich province or has special resources. But especially because each vassals bring in 1k in badly needed trade revenue!

Glad I checked up on the RD stuff before coming across it...

Playing a game as Chosukabe and needed to take out Sojo (?) - the other guys on the Chosukabe island. Had been allied with them the
whole time , marriages and really good relations, meaning that I'd been able to focus on taking out everything in the west side of the map.

But, alas, victory conditions mean I have to have Sojo lands, so went on a ninja campaign to destroy their farms with monks to incite rebellion, as well as cancelling alliance, trade agreement, etc...

But also have a big border with the Yamukame (?) on the island to the north...
Realised I'd have to keep them sweet, so agreed some marriages and hostage exchanges with them as well as alliance and military access...

Eventually started a war with Sojo for their last three territories, and just as I was about to take their last one, a massive Yam army landed. They assisted in that battle and then rampaged around mopping up the last of the Sojo army... Realm Divide happened, and everyone joined the Shogun against me, except the Yamas.

Now I've moved towards Kyoto and they're still being really helpful, ganging up on the Hatamake (?) with me, and generally being useful, as well as keeping a strong naval presence in the dividing waters to stop any Hata invasions.

Am keeping a wary eye on the meter with them, but still at about +175, so looks like they may stay with me.
Once I've taken out the Hatas though, it'll have to be Kyoto, so will really need to make sure I keep the Yamas on my side.
It's getting pretty exciting. I'm in about 1868, and need another 7 or 8 territories, including Kyoto, so hopefully the Yamas will keep the bigger armies occupied for me while I pick off the unprotected forts.

Gotta say, I'm loving TWS2. Empire had all kinds of potential, but I could never get it to perform very well... No such glitches in Shogun - and naval invasions! Had a huge Hata invasion land and have a go at me.

(What a battle, to thoroughly rout them, the most satisfying part being a 4 unit Yari Cavalry charge in pyramid formation right into the rear of three archer units. Total Annihilation! )

Have there been any changes to RD since this thread was started? It certainly doesn't seem as game-nerfing as other threads have suggested. Has it been toned down, or have I just played it really well :) or got lucky?