What do you feel about the M2TW engine v.s Rome total war?

I have played both games online and I have noticed that the RTW MP community is much larger than that of M2TW. At first I was charmed by the M2TW appearance of better graphics and how all the units were shining in some heavy armour, but it seems that the factions do mostly have a similar units. Like most players just spam a Crusading knights, dismounted feudal knights/armoured swordsmen, pavise crossbowmen/Longbows. But that may seem to be rather trivial since Europa Barbarorum 2 will feature diverse units from the classical age like the first one.

However when you play battles in M2TW then because each individual soldiers has a different cloths than his mates of the same unit, then it happens that when the infantry clash with each other that it is like everything gets mixed into some huge melting pot so it can be very difficult to notice what is going on. I don't know whether it is also an issues that each of the units can have some different combat moves with their weapons, but I wonder whether such nice graphical features are really that relevant or neccesary when it comes to have a good overview of the battle and its tactics.

For an example about roleplaying games then the most popular games of the genre were made from the year 1997-2003, where the games had a 2D graphics and most of the dialogue appeared forth silently in text. However after the 2004-2005 then game producers began to rely too much upon beautiful 3D graphics and how actors were paid for speaking for the characters in these games, but the gameplay itself has declined in quality.

So I wonder whether a simple graphic engine in regard to the terrain and the units can be better than some advanced graphics of some trivial matters. Maybe it is not only the faction diversity in Rome Total war which makes it popular among the MP community but also the simplicity of the overview in battles.

well i tend to find older games funnier i recently replayed the age of empires batlechest wich had conquerors rise of rome age of kings and i found them more immersing then the totalwar games because they allow you to use your imagination

more recent games they are so "detailed" that there´s 0 imagination on them it almost feels like a shootem up normally and it´s been happening alot for the last couple of years i can hardly finish a campaign i love starting it managing the population the production of armies and rearranging them and stuff but once i log off i almost never load that campaign again i usually just restart and try to do diferently

loading an ongoing campaign almost feels like work only exceptions are when i´m writting an aar and then i need to reread the last 2-4 pages of the aar before i plung in again

mtw2 as alot of improvements i simply adore (diplomacy and merchants) but the lack of city pop. management is a sin i can´t forgive it removes the fun out of the game for me and i´m still waiting for the game where it enables you to train "militias" inside a region without adding population and when they are trully needed you call them up and recruit a full army in less then 1 turn (ofc you risk the danger of when rebellions pop up those militians joining the rebels or bandits show up and you find yourself that half of your militiamen that you trained and equiped with your cash sudendly turned rogue and are now laying waste to the countryside)

thats an improvement i´m still waiting you pay the cash to "recruit" them but there´s no upkeep until you call on them

M2TW, graphics aside, actualy also have the better gameplay options, but some important features of Rome (management, influence) are removed and turned to be Chivalry and Piety, loyalty is also good additions though.

The one things that I love in M2TW is the Princess :D

I for one think that the RTW engine hasn't been used to its fullest potential yet.
The only things I'd wish from M2TW is the increased number of factions and models plus the better flexibility in modding AI and missions (plus maybe permanent stone forts), everything else can be done with BI.

Edit: Lol, wrong thread.

RTW

Most MP battles are played on flatlands, so terrain is not an issue, you mostly do not have time to view the pretty knights in shining armor....

RTW is also more faster and responsive. M2TW is very very slow in comparison.

Charges in the M2TW engine seem to be much more powerful, for both cavalry and infantry. While in Rome a cavalry charge to the rear would cause a respectable amount of casualties and hit the morale, in M2 all but the heaviest units would be annihilated by a good charge. The movement and formation of units also seems much more organic and fluid, which might tie into better graphics and animations to make Rome armies appear stiffer.

MTWII is certainly much slower though. more fluid and pretty? yes, but at a cost that everyone kind of just seems to be taking their time. even when running

oh yes unlike rtw where units either immediately react or not at all(had a unit of slingers die because they refused to climb a wall and claim a tower :/ ) in M2TW units carry out orders somewhat sluggish and it can take some time to realign your units etc. but afterall that brings us closer to reality. in RTW(vanilla) you'd have to watch out for every one of your units all the time or it runs aways without you noticeing, because it was flanked by heavy infantry :( . in M2TW the only thing that can happen is some knights popping out of nowhere and charging into someting whereas most of the time you could even see them comeing.

I always thought units in Rome were far too fast. Medieval 2 seems to have a much better speed to me, though indeed sluggish response times can be annoying. I've lost count of the number of crossbowmen I've lost because half the unit insisted on waiting 10 seconds before actually stopping their reloading animation, turning around and jogging back through the supporting spear-wall. On the plus side, cavalry can't just charge and withdraw at 0 risk anymore.

Improved diplomacy and agents are nice, but not that important.

My favourite M2 feature is the ability to control AI reinforcements in Kingdoms. It changes big battles to "Now I will wait until my second army is engaged and then I'll crush the enemy in a giant vice" instead of "I must attack at full speed before my stupid AI general gets himself killed. No, not my elite cavalry! Stop! Don't charge them at those pikes! Wait for my army! Wait for... bloody hell. Where's the reload button?"

what makes you say improved diplomacy and agents aren't important? to me, they are paramount. my whole fun and immersion from everything EB offers kind of gets ruined when my allies decide to send 7 syrian archers to besiege a city, then demand that "i don't attack - if you don't attack" (huh????????? what????) it just doesn't have any grounding in any sort of rational thought process. Or the Greeks of Italy who are supported solely by me and would be underfoot of the Romans sine me, besieging me at Syracuse when the Roman's are knocking at their door!

sorry had to rant but MTWII did improve this

They are important, but not that important since in EB I can work around it with the force-diplomacy script. Also, in vanilla M2 it's still not that great.

Some M2 mods have much better diplomacy, true. I like it a lot in Broken Crescent for example. If you build up a good reputation you can very effectively use politics to maintain your position even against stronger neighbours. It makes the campaign more fun.

But control over AI reinforcements is much bigger, i.m.o.

They had the same difference between bus and train.....

Having played Medieval 2 Total War WAY too much, and having sampled around 10 different mods for it, I can say that the diplomacy is much improved, the units react more realistically, and the graphics are obviously much better. I haven't played Empire, or Shogun 2, but i really want to see how they stack up against RTW and MTW2. Personally, I want to see the battle AI of MTW1, the graphics of Shogun 2, the influence and management of RTW/MTW:Viking Invasion, and the unit behavior of MTW2 (takes a few moments to respond, realistic in my opinion, and they also have stakes, shield wall, spear wall, etc.) and the RTW era, or perhaps Viking Invasion's era, and that would be my perfect game.

I'd say skip vanilla empire, they are the worst title in vanilla TW franchise, with the most stupid AI and unrealistic diplomacy. Better go straight towards Napoleon and Shogun2, they are much much better than Empire, despite napoleon and empire have the same engine.