Wrath of the Khan 2: RECRUITMENT and rules discussion

hey all, it's time to get very, VERY excited as the monkey returns with another blockbuster hotseat campaign for the ages!

You may be aware that back in the day we did a Mongols vs the world game as an extension to Commanders of the Faithful. It was a game in Broken Crescent 1.05, was called Wrath of the Khan and was enormous fun for the five players involved.

Well, now I'm planning a sequel: more players, better balanced and on a bigger scale all round.

Wrath of the Khan 2 will be played in Stainless Steel 6.4 and I will play the Mongols against all comers.

I have skipped the campaign forward to the first turn of the Mongol invasion and I intend to allocate the non-Mongol factions by lot. When I have a quorum of players I'll post a few alternative starting positions and we can vote on which one to use.

Here are my proposed victory conditions for the Mongols:
- The Mongols must take 40 provinces and must sack or occupy three of the following cities: Jerusalem, Baghdad, Moscow and Constantinople.

Here are my proposed victory conditions for the non-Mongol factions:
- Outlast the Mongols and take 15 additional provinces from one or more human non-Mongol players.
OR
- Take 30 additional provinces from one or more human non-Mongol players before the Mongols win the game.

The reason for the dual-condition for non-Mongol factions is to create an incentive for treachery and prevent the game from becoming a predictable anti-Mongol slog.

I suggest that we have the following rules:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Each player has 48 hours to complete his turn (not counting weekends). After that the Admin may skip his faction or he can be subbed by an ally. Extensions will be granted on reasonable request.

Do not attack ships in ports.

Armies boarding ships in ports can't stay there for more than one turn.

Don't leave blockaded ports without beating the blockading ships first.

Don't stack merchants in armies or forts to get more than one to stand on the same resource (Merchant Fort)

No surrounding armies or agents to destroy them. (Surround&Destroy)

Don't attack units who were left next to a settlement in order to capture it on the same turn in order to cheat the garrison script. In fact don't cheat the garrison script period. (this only applies vs AI factions)

Don't use repeated offers for bribe to increase your faction leader's dread.

Enable "Unlimited men on battlefield" in order to not abuse when leading battles vs the AI (PM me for instructions, though SS has this on by default)

Armies that are defeated in battle by a player that comes after them in the turn list may not move the following turn. This is to make it fair for people who are defeated by players that come before them in the turn list, and thus lose all their movement points

Armies that are defeated in battle may not be attacked on the following turn, as they are banned from moving, either by the game mechanics or by the rule above. They must be allowed to move first, or must be reinforced. If the defeated army retreats to a settlement or fort, this rule does not apply.

Ballistas can't open anything, catapults can open wooden walls, trebuchets or better can open anything.

Assassins are allowed to target anyone but the players are limited to one assassination or sabotage attempt per turn. It must be the first action they do, before they spend money or do anything else. If a successful assassination or sabotage is questioned by a player the game admin will load the relevant save and attempt the assassination. If the results are different there will be penalties for cheating.

Spies may infiltrate cities to open the gates as well as perform other spying actions but the players are limited to one attempt per turn. It must be the first action they do, before they spend money or do anything else, OR the second action if they are also attempting an assassination / sabotage in the same turn. If a successful spying attempt is questioned by a player the game admin will load the relevant save and attempt the action. If the results are different there will be penalties for cheating.

No crusades or jihads to be called or joined.

No buildings to be destroyed for cash under any circumstances.

No trading of provinces solely to receive free troops. If you trade provinces, make sure they have no garrison prior to the exchange.

No deliberate deals that would put you in debt above -10,000 florins

***Please post here if you are interested in joining the game and please also give me your opinion on the proposed rules and victory conditions.***

Players (12):
phonicsmonkey - The Mongols
Ashurnasirpal II
slysnake
Nightbringer
Myth
The Celtic Viking
LooseCannon1
Ezilkannan
Zim
Visorslash
Rougeman
Silvershield

I'm still interested! But I'm so not the right person to criticize the rules :dizzy2:

Though, looks all good to me!

I'll go with England if it's not already taken :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slysnake

I'll go with England if it's not already taken :)

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I'm planning at this stage to allocate the non-Mongol factions by lot, because in the 70 or so turns that the AI has hold of them they have become somewhat unbalanced. And I'd imagine England will be a popular choice to say the least...far away, safe from Mongols, longbows...

I'm sure there's room for some horse-trading around that with the other players though...

It depends of course which starting position we choose - more on that later.

I wish I could join but since I already participate in different games in the Org then I don't want to rip myself apart joining this as well. ~:(
Perhaps in the future when have some more time and there are still some factions left. Until then I'll keep lurking the threads and enjoy the games that way! ~:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

I wish I could join

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Go on, you know you want to...

seriously though, glad to have you even as a lurker :laugh4:

Me,
in,
now,
fun...
:)

I'm in! Will this be with RR on or off?

Also, I'll be away until Sunday FYI. I like the rules, they were copied from the CoG post? :D I also like the revised victory conditions. Target cities are always good fun!

I've no experience with hotseats, and my only experience with M2TW is what I've got from V&V.

...

I'm in!

just as long as you don't bring the Margrave with you, welcome to the game!

honestly, glad to see you in the game, I look forward to competing with you.

I've been waiting for this one to start recruiting. Count me in.

Sounds interesting, Im in :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myth

I'm in! Will this be with RR on or off?

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That's a good question. I actually can't remember whether I selected RR or not when creating the starting saves. I can always run it again if we want it without (or with). Maybe I'll jut post them here and you guys can take a look.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myth

I like the rules, they were copied from the CoG post?

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Pretty much.

Do we think the VCs are balanced? Is it too hard for the Mongols? Too easy?

Here are four possible starting positions. You can see that even though I had RR on (I think) by turn 120-odd there is plenty of high quality troopage to be had by all the factions.

It's a small thing to run these again with RR off if you don't like what you see.

I like number 1 because it is balanced and number 4 because it's a glorious mess.

What do you guys think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightbringer

just as long as you don't bring the Margrave with you, welcome to the game!

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Haha! So long as you don't bring Jens Herden, you won't have anything to worry about. ~;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightbringer

honestly, glad to see you in the game, I look forward to competing with you.

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Oh likewise, comrade, likewise. I just hope my inexperience won't make this competition too one-sided.

I can't see the map in those saves because console is admin only (I don't have the password, for obvious reasons.)

Actually re-reading the victory conditions for the Mongols, shouldn't Jerusalem be replaced with Cairo? After all, in the end, the great enemy of the Mongols became the Mamluks from Egypt. Jerusalem meant nothing to them. And it isn't much harder to get to Cairo if they're already all the way to Jerusalem.

the only other issue with the mongol VC's is that it strongly encourages the Mongols to basically only attack in the middle east, as three of their required targets are there, meaning they can ignore Moscow and that entire front.
Perhaps Jerusalem should be switched to Warsaw or another major city in the north to encourage the mongols to attack in both areas.

I guess Constantinople is kind of in both, but going through the middle east seems like a more advantageous route and will cut off any northern factions from much of the fight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightbringer

I can't see the map in those saves because console is admin only (I don't have the password, for obvious reasons.)

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Sorry, I thought that if I saved the game with the fog of war off then it would stay that way. I'll take screenshots of the maps and post them here. All the factions are open so you can flick through and look at them individually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashurnasirpal II

Actually re-reading the victory conditions for the Mongols, shouldn't Jerusalem be replaced with Cairo? After all, in the end, the great enemy of the Mongols became the Mamluks from Egypt. Jerusalem meant nothing to them.

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Historically speaking I agree with you. Only Cairo is that much more difficult to get to than Jerusalem...so it makes life harder for the Mongols. What does everyone else think?

I just had an idea as well - what about adding an alternative VC for the Mongols so that they can take either 40 provinces with x, y and z cities or just 50 provinces in total. That might keep things from being too predictable.

EDIT: just saw your last post NB, does my suggestion help with that?

Use this file for the first save instead. The others all have the fog of war off already, I just didn't do it with #1 the first time, sorry.

I think we should go with #1, the balance seems excellent. Although I hope I get venice in it!
#4 looks fun but I think a few people might feel like the game was imbalanced. The Byzantines would be in an excellent position to simply let the Kwazies deal with the Mongols while they kill everyone else.

The only issue I can see with #1 is the Moors, but that might jstu bring in an interesting dynamic of a threat in the west as well, which will make england, france, etc... a little less comfy.

And thanks for doing all this phonics!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightbringer

I think we should go with #1, the balance seems excellent. Although I hope I get venice in it!
#4 looks fun but I think a few people might feel like the game was imbalanced. The Byzantines would be in an excellent position to simply let the Kwazies deal with the Mongols while they kill everyone else.

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Venice is a good pick but England is a monster in 1!

We should definitely make sure that Kwarezm is human-controlled, even though they're going to take an immediate pounding. In fact all the sizable eastern factions should have humans to make sure I don't get an easy ride at the start.

England does have its island home, but the Moors are strong enough that they will have to worry about that threat. If Spain and France are computer controlled the Moors would be in a great position to try to take on england.

I think we'll get enough players to make sure no-one has it easy. That's the plan anyway.

Each save appears different in its own unique way:laugh4: I realize I'm channelling Yogi Berra with that statement:huh:
Is there a chance of starting 5 turns earlier so we can fix our faction? The save I looked closest at showed AI 1,2,3 unit armies running around. In most saves Turks, Cumans, and one or both Russians were down to almost nothing. Even Egypt was middle of the pack in one save.
Khwarzies had minimal garrisons in most cities and looked like easy pickings for Mongols. Three cities should fall on the first turn, then its how fast can the Mongols move? Over 20,000 soldiers!!

Victory conditions: Kiev should replace Moscow, and Cairo replace Jerusalem. And increase the number of regions (for Mongols)to something sensible. Like 198:laugh4:

It's too hard to stop it five turns early but we can build in a grace period where the Mongols stand still while the rest get ready. The Kwaz are definitely going to lose some cities early whatever we do.

One thing I'm planning to do is equalize the treasuries for the non-Mongol factions, because some are heavily in debt. What about I give everyone 30k or something?

sorry guys I discovered in testing that I have botched these saves and the horde is not working correctly, so I'm going to have to run some more and test those before we proceed. I'll hopefully have another selection for you in a day or so, in the meantime don't waste too much time looking at the ones I already posted because we can't use them.

Do feel free to continue the rules and VCs discussion though.

So far suggestions have been:

- replace Jerusalem with Cairo and Moscow with Kiev in the Mongol VCs
- increase the number of territories required by the Mongols from 40 to a higher number (what number?)
- provide a grace period at the start for non-Mongol factions to organise

I support the grace period and the switches, as for victory condition I think a good way to do it would be to say the mongols need to hold all 4 regions, or say they need 4 out of 5 and add Warsaw

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightbringer

I support the grace period and the switches, as for victory condition I think a good way to do it would be to say the mongols need to hold all 4 regions, or say they need 4 out of 5 and add Warsaw

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If we do it that way I definitely think we should have an alternative too, like a larger number of regions without any specifics. Because otherwise I'm afraid the game will be too predictable.

That makes sense, I think 60 would be a good number without the required provinces, or maybe 50.