What's your preferred standard stack when you're ready to RD?

I've been playing S2TW many weeks and have gone through a lot of changes...

I suppose many of us like to stop expanding just before RD, then build stacks - then ram them home to victory.

While we don't always have the time to build our preferred stack before crossing the realm divide (esp. on short games), what would yours be?

Lately I am preferring:

• 12 bow samurai hopefully with full accuracy upgrade from a crafts province (bow master dojo plus master bowmaker), plus a little armor from a encampment/armoury for incoming arrows
• 4 nagi samurai with full smithy master armour and master yari dojo, plus a little melee attack from encampment/jujutsu dojo,
• 3 yari cav from the same province as nagi (same master armour, master yari dojo, a little attack from jujutsu dojo)
• 1 general

Plus of course one should have up to 3 generals within the range of attack, so they also get experience.

This combination benefits from the fact that it only needs two fully built out provinces (one smithy province, and the crafts province always takes longer).

I have played with changes, such as:

• having a matchlock instead of one of the bows (but matchlocks are really only good in castle defense - and while matchlocks are fun in general, I hope castle defense doesn't happen too often), plus it's simply a hassle to micromanage matchlocks and archers together,
• one katana cav instead of one of my yari cavs... but in the long run, given how the AI is liable to rush your cav with his cav, the much higher armor of yari cav vs kat cav, and you otherwise really shouldn't think of cav as infantry, just shock (hit from behind when wavering) and mop up ... I think 3 yari cav and a general, instead of 2 yari cav, 1 katana cav, and 1 general, are the simplest bet.

What's your preferred stack vs the AI, when you cross the RD line?

It depends heavily on what I am playing. And a bit also on who I am likely to go against.

Typically, I use at least 6-8 bows. Then for infantry, I tend to use whatever my clan is best at (special unit) and add in a few others for a good mix.

For instance, as Uesugi, my stack would have 6 bow samurai, 2-3 bow monks, 6 nagi monks, and a few spears / cavalry. Against heavy archer fire, I would add some spear ashis to take the initial hit, or perhaps a few regular naginata units.

With Chosokabe, I would just use 10 samurai archers and a mix of infantry depending on my likely opponent. Usually it would be naginata, spear ashis and yari cav, with perhaps 1-2 monk or sword units for shock.

I also have "cheap" stacks that are meant to absorb assaults on a one-off basis (not able to resist many stacks in repeated battles). In those, I just have spear ashi and samurai bows/ashi matchlocks and a few mixed samurai melee units. I use them to defend, only very rarely I would attack with such a stack.

I've stopped spamming bows as it makes beating the AI too easy.

I usually go with:
5 bow ashigaru or samurai
2 naginata samurai
4 katana samurai
1 light cav
7 yari ashigaru
and the general

Not too many bows, I don't like it that much. Sure, it causes damage, but I'm a more hand-to-hand combat kind of player.

Around 6 bows maximum - Preferably 2/4 Bow Warrior Monks and 2/4 Bow Samurai, depends.

Yari Samurai are the mainstay of my armies, they can defend themselves and they can attack relatively well

Naginata Samurai - one or two

Around two katana samurai

Two Yari Cavalry / One Katana One Yari / One Great Guard One Katana

The General

Balanced enough, provides good firepower, provides flanking possibilities, provides defence/attack capability. :yes:

Thanks for your replies everyone, very interesting...

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Originally Posted by spicykorean

I've stopped spamming bows as it makes beating the AI too easy.

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This made me raise an eyebrow... but then I guess the best games allow for a lot of flexibility in both play, and the types of people who play... I'm the type who likes to take his time building up a strong economy (in most any game), then hitting with a god-awful wall. I guess I challenge myself to see how well I can do it.

One thing I would hate to see with my 4 nagi sams, 4 yari cav, and 12 bow sammies, is: a ton of katana sams. They would eat through my 4 nagis (I almost never lose a unit!) and then it'd be Depends time ...

I like the way you folks seem more flexible. But I'll stick with death from afar for the time being.

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Originally Posted by RedKnight

[*]one katana cav instead of one of my yari cavs... but in the long run, given how the AI is liable to rush your cav with his cav, the much higher armor of yari cav vs kat cav, and you otherwise really shouldn't think of cav as infantry, just shock (hit from behind when wavering) and mop up ... I think 3 yari cav and a general, instead of 2 yari cav, 1 katana cav, and 1 general, are the simplest bet.

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Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but Katana cavalry are armour 7 compared to Yari cavalry armor 4.

I think he refers to defense of yari vs. katana cav (based on context). If you use only yari cav, you don't have to be so worried about enemy cav hitting your cav, since yari cav has a high defense vs. all other cavalry.

I just use yari cav to chase routing troops and to hit enemy cav. Hitting enemy infantry is usually quite hit or miss maneuver - even if there is a non-yari unit in the open, usually a yari unit is quite near to it and any entanglement means your cav will have to fight yaris too.

Hmmm

I tend to rasie units,than stack them,My choice

Damyio Takeda
Takeda Hatsuko Takeda Huokeo
Takeda Heavy Cavarly Takeda Heavy Cavarly.
Yari Ashaguri Yari Ashaguri Yari Ashaguri
Naginta Samurai Yari Samurai Nagainta Samurai Samurai
Bow Samurai Matchlock Bow Ashaguri

I was messing around a while ago with a stack for defensive purposes only, which fared surprisingly well. It featured about 10 units of matchlock ashigaru, a few units of yari cav and the rest light cav. The matchlocks can deploy palisade/fence things on the defence, which coupled with corner camping (and preferably a hill) will force any attacking melee troops to travel through a maze of bamboo, often attacking you in a conga line as they get caught on a corner. Meanwhile, the light cav harass the enemy archers, suicidally if necessary, whilst the yari cavalry protect them from enemy cav. This stack is relatively cheap, and allows you to hold on one front whilst pushing up on another with a better army (monks FTW!).

I have been using mostly ashigauru and samuri

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Originally Posted by Ishmael

The matchlocks can deploy palisade/fence things on the defence, which coupled with corner camping (and preferably a hill) will force any attacking melee troops to travel through a maze of bamboo, often attacking you in a conga line as they get caught on a corner.

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I haven't tried Bamboo Wall even once... it sounds evil! The AI can really be chewed up when forced into bad moves.

Pharaoh, it sounds like a good choice.

I've been trying a campaign on Hard difficulty, and while that's not the peak of AI strength by any means, I keep expecting it to react better than it does.
At least three times now I've been attacked by a much larger stack (2-1), and beaten them each time by nothing more than a simple lure-anvil/pounce method. Hide archers in trees, long thin line of peasant spearmen in front, elite katana samurai on flanks, general in rear. Slowly send the spearmen forward till the enemy starts getting into range to shoot them, then pull them back and draw the enemy towards the woods/hill/whatever. So far the enemy has acted predicatbly each time....they leave their bowmen on their flanks to shoot at the lone spear company, and charge forward a mass of melee troops. So I have my archers eat-up the enemy advancing, wheel and charge my spearmen, and swing my katana samurai out wide to flank and charge the enemy bowmen. Usually by the time they've reached the bowmen the entire army is ready to crumple.

NwK,

Sometimes the AI will come at me with "sacrifices", sometimes not... I think it depends on the level of the general and whether they are ashigaru or samurai. Also I think it even depends on the AI faction; some seem more impetuous than others; some more lame than others. This is at Hard difficulty.

I have always used cavalry to lure out units, since they can move away faster once the arrows start.

Yeah good point.

Well, to speak to the original thread subject: I've just started my march to Kyoto to start Realm Divide, for the first time since getting the game (on Hard). I landed on the coast and have two provinces to go inland (would have been shorter but my allies wouldnt garnt me military access. Jerks.)

So, not sure these are my PREFERRED stacks so much as an experiment to see what works.

Right now, under my Daimyo's son (level 4, full honor) I have 3 units of Elite Shimazu Katana Samurai (with armor bonuses), 2 units of Veteran SKS (with morale bonuses), 5 units of Veteran or Elite Yari Ashigaru (with armor bonuses), 4 Veteran units of Bow Ashigaru (with accuracy bonuses), 3 Veteran units of Naginata Cavalry (with armor bonuses), 2 Elite units of Light Cavalry (with armor bonuses), and my general's unit.

Under my Daimyo (level 3, full honor) I have 4 Veteran units of Naginata Cavalry, 2 Elite units of Katana Samurai Cavalry, 2 Elite units of Naginata Samurai, 5 Veteran units of Bow Ashigaru, 3 units of Elite Yari Ashigaru, and 3 units of Elite Shimazu Katana Samurai.

Before this point I preferred more bowmen-heavy forces, but I dropped some of the bowmen for the naginata folks once I'd brought them up to par, as I'm hoping they'll fare better against the Yari Cavalry-heavy armies of the Oda that I have to go through to get to Kyoto.

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Originally Posted by RedKnight

NwK,

Sometimes the AI will come at me with "sacrifices", sometimes not... I think it depends on the level of the general and whether they are ashigaru or samurai. Also I think it even depends on the AI faction; some seem more impetuous than others; some more lame than others. This is at Hard difficulty.

I have always used cavalry to lure out units, since they can move away faster once the arrows start.

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And I wanted to say that so far I've encountered three types of enemy AI generals:
Type A, Ill call the Wolf, sets-up in a huge block with a large front and splits in half as they advance, without hesitation, straight towards my line. They're the most likely to pull units out of they start taking too much punishment, and they pull-back and re-charge with cavalry more often.

Type B, we'll call the Badger, sits and does nothing for an eternity, and will continue to do so, until my units get within bow range, at which point their entire army lunges for whatever unit of mine got in range first. And they will continue to push at that spot no matter if they're encircled.

Type C, the Idiot, sends a file of single company after single company towards my lines, which I gradually draw-in, pepper with arrows, and flank. And they rout.

Depends. However the finest stacks were certainly those Chosokabe with 10-12 samurai archers with 121 accuracy and quick reloading and some monk archers protected by a mix of Naginata and Katana Samurai clad in fine armour with some highly experienced monks and cavalry thrown in. The DLC unit pack was not out yet as those 175 range Samurai would have been also handy.

I invaded the the mainland with 7 or 8 Samurai and Monk stacks. 500000 koku in the treasury and a huge cash flow helped to sustain that military power long enought for the ultimate victory.

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Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens

Depends. However the finest stacks were certainly those Chosokabe with 10-12 samurai archers with 121 accuracy and quick reloading and some monk archers protected by a mix of Naginata and Katana Samurai clad in fine armour with some highly experienced monks and cavalry thrown in. The DLC unit pack was not out yet as those 175 range Samurai would have been also handy.

I invaded the the mainland with 7 or 8 Samurai and Monk stacks. 500000 koku in the treasury and a huge cash flow helped to sustain that military power long enought for the ultimate victory.

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So you're playing like the shogunate, basically ;-)

What is it with everyone loving archers so much? The AI always has an army that consists of 18 units of samurai archers and 2 units of yari ashigaru. What on earth? I prefer balanced stacks myself.

Monks. Lots of monks.

At the start of realm divide (provided I can tech up and prepare for it) I will have 3-4 ashigaru archers, 4-5 units of samurai, 2-3 monk units, some ashigaru axilieries and yari cavalry in each stack. Numbers of stacks is highly variable from campaign to campaign, depends on how well i've maintained my economy over the course of the game. I've hit RD with as few as two stacks before, and still won. ~D

The samurai units i mass will differ depending on what is available to me and what are my clan's strengths, but regardless of clan, I almost always pack in a few monk units for RD. They are like a nuclear option on the battlefield, watching their charge rip through a samurai line is poetry in motion.

Monk, that was a real interesting reply. An important factor to point out here - and a fun part of the game - is whether you buckle down and prep deeply for RD, or whether you keep charging forward to take over Japan, with only a slight pause before RDing.

The difference being that the AI isn't as swift as a human (of course), and if you give them time to build up nice forces (samurai and even monks) while you build up uber forces, they will do it. But if you choose to keep moving forward with little pause before tripping RD, it's a very different game... you are largely hitting ashigaru and light cavalry, and fewer generals, while you, of course, don't have the uber forces you could have if you hunkered down for many turns to make everything just the way you like it.

I really like how S2TW has simplified a number of important things compared to previous TW games, but still has tons of things to play with.

Nightwing, I like archers because I like death from afar. Kill them before they can touch you and all that. For one thing, it makes castle take-downs so easy, even if it's a slow process like peeling an onion sometimes. But I suppose I'll eventually try a game where I'm not archer-heavy.

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Originally Posted by NightwindKing

So you're playing like the shogunate, basically ;-)

What is it with everyone loving archers so much? The AI always has an army that consists of 18 units of samurai archers and 2 units of yari ashigaru. What on earth? I prefer balanced stacks myself.

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Well it depends on the clan. Although I confess that I hardly had any Warrior Monks in my recent Uesi campaign, as I was unable to secure stable alliances and got attacked at naseum by pretty much anybody. So I had to blitz my way to victory with a battle-hardened Ashis lead by fantastic generals suppported by Monks, Ninjas and 1 or two Metzke. The agents are far from a petty detail in any military confrontation.

OA

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Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens

Well it depends on the clan. Although I confess that I hardly had any Warrior Monks in my recent Uesi campaign, as I was unable to secure stable alliances and got attacked at naseum by pretty much anybody. So I had to blitz my way to victory with a battle-hardened Ashis lead by fantastic generals suppported by Monks, Ninjas and 1 or two Metzke. The agents are far from a petty detail in any military confrontation.

OA

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Archers are a godsend in siege battles, which I dislike. Even in my Date campaign, I'm running 6 archers per stack.

Frustrating thing is I'm having to rush now...my Shimazu campaign is down to only 20 turns left, and I still need 7 provinces and Kyoto. The big holdup is that Oda, my biggest rival, has a seemingly endless supply ot full stacks, and none of them are balanced. Last turn I was attacked by 2 light cavalry and 18 Elite Katana Samurai. Nice.

Is auto-resolving considered fair game?

When I hit RD in my Shimazu campaign I had three full stacks of bow cavalry which I used to forge ahead and win sieges on AR, waiting for the ashigaru to catch up and garrison my newly captured provinces. (I hate fighting siege battles, so boring!)

When I wanted to fight a battle in the field I would collapse the bow cav stacks and use them to supplement my foot armies of katana samurai, bow ashigaru / monks and yari cav.

I found this extremely effective in taking large sections of enemy territory quickly and crippling my foes before I took out their armies at my leisure.

Of course I had also prepared the road ahead with my crack squad of sabotage ninjas, cutting off the food supply and choking my opponents to death in the cradle.