California passes Dream Act. Illegal immigrants get state money for college.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2011/10/gov-jerry-brown-has-signed-california-dream-act-legislator-says.html

What do you guys think of this?

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The legislation was opposed by most of the Republican lawmakers who questioned an expansion of programs to benefit illegal immigrants while the state is cutting services to residents who are in the country properly.

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Indeed.

I guess $40 million is just a drop in the bucket, though.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

For everyone talking about building a wall or sending troops to the border, this is actually the kind of stuff you need to get rid of if you want to stop the flow of illegals. Just saying.

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So take that money ten times over and spend it on vigorously enforcing border impermeability.

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with illegals pushing out citizens from attending colleges they deserve

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Presumably, the immigrants who benefit deserve to go to college just as much as citizens. Unless, of course, you consider non-citizens to be inherently inferior.

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Presumably, the immigrants who benefit deserve to go to college just as much as citizens. Unless, of course, you consider non-citizens to be inherently inferior.

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They don't deserve to go to college with taxpayer money when there is a backup of legal immigrants who want the chance to live here and go to American uni's. They don't deserve to get state money when they disregarded the rules by coming in and don't pay as much in taxes as actual citizens. Nothing about them being inferior, it's all about them coming over and wanting to use American services and benefits while breaking American law at the same time.

It's not fair to legalized immigrants whose parents worked hard to be able to get the same benefits, it's not fair to birth citizens whose parents funded the public education system illegals used to qualify for college. Trying to paint me as a racist is pretty much the only tactic the left wields i nthis argument. Well if you don't want to give money to illegals so they can succeed, then you must think of them as sub-human. What?

Sounds good to me...don't see what your criticizing it for really.

Not inferior just not entitled

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

They don't deserve to go to college with taxpayer money when there is a backup of legal immigrants who want the chance to live here and go to American uni's. They don't deserve to get state money when they disregarded the rules by coming in and don't pay as much in taxes as actual citizens. Nothing about them being inferior, it's all about them coming over and wanting to use American services and benefits while breaking American law at the same time.

It's not fair to legalized immigrants whose parents worked hard to be able to get the same benefits, it's not fair to birth citizens whose parents funded the public education system illegals used to qualify for college. Trying to paint me as a racist is pretty much the only tactic the left wields i nthis argument. Well if you don't want to give money to illegals so they can succeed, then you must think of them as sub-human. What?

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I doubt the kids in question intended to break the law, but OK.

Education is a good investment, so as long as you're not going to deport all of them, you might as well educate them.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Sounds good to me...don't see what your criticizing it for really.

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I just don't think it is fair to everyone else. My last post explains it better.

Immigrants are good for the country. It's good to subsidize them even at the expense of natives.

I'll grant you that there's a ton of other issues relating to the state of our colleges and financial aid and such...

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I doubt the kids in question intended to break the law, but OK.

Education is a good investment, so as long as you're not going to deport all of them, you might as well educate them.

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The kids didn't intend to break the law, but the parents did. It's blatant abuse for parents to come with an entire family and then say, well we broke the law, but why are you punishing my kids?

Education is a good investment, but lets invest in our own citizens first, many of whom get denied grants every year.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Immigrants are good for the country. It's good to subsidize them even at the expense of natives.

I'll grant you that there's a ton of other issues relating to the state of our colleges and financial aid and such...

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I agree, immigrants are good for the country. So let's overhaul the legal process of becoming a citizen, because there is a huge backlog of legals waiting to get in. Speed up the legal process somehow to work within the demands of those wanting to come in.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I agree, immigrants are good for the country. So let's overhaul the legal process of becoming a citizen, because there is a huge backlog of legals waiting to get in. Speed up the legal process somehow to work within the demands of those wanting to come in.

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End result is the same isn't it? Except that now the person who loses out on a scholarship does so to a legal immigrant instead of an illegal one. But both the immigrants were brought here as children anyway, so what's the difference?

Well, the legal immigrants typically have more money. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

End result is the same isn't it? Except that now the person who loses out on a scholarship does so to a legal immigrant instead of an illegal one. But both the immigrants were brought here as children anyway, so what's the difference?

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Difference is that:
A. One followed the law and one didn't, which shows how much they respect American law.
B. Legal immigrants usually have a higher responsibility put on them in terms of taxes than illegals.

Essentially by just letting anyone enter the fray with proper legalization, the uni's that only Americans pay for, now for all intents and purposes have americans competing against the rest of the world. Education should be like Social Security, you pay in and in return you get something out of it. I don't think illegals properly pay in.

Alright, I'm gonna calm down a bit. Just a bit peeved at the good point PJ highlighted.

I guess if it works (as in an overall positive benefit for the US), then it works. Gotta wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Immigrants are good for the country. It's good to subsidize them even at the expense of natives.

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Could you elaborate a bit on this? Are you speaking specifically in terms of education, or more generally? And are you talking about legal or illegal immigrants?

In terms of education, illegal immigrants are much more likely to a) leave the country and b) have a difficult time finding a job in which to use their state-funded skills. Considering those, it reasons that their subsidization would yield far more risky results in terms of the state's return on its investment in comparison to natives.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Could you elaborate a bit on this? Are you speaking specifically in terms of education, or more generally? And are you talking about legal or illegal immigrants?

In terms of education, illegal immigrants are much more likely to a) leave the country and b) have a difficult time finding a job in which to use their state-funded skills. Considering those, it reasons that their subsidization would yield far more risky results in terms of the state's return on its investment in comparison to natives.

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First you accept the vague bit about immigrants being good for the country. Given that, it's important to give them a boost to get that family history of education. Our grade school/high school system doesn't really work well for children whose parents aren't educated.

How much more likely are illegal immigrants to leave the country once they get a degree?

More pertinently what is the alternative? Having them sit idle or occupy the entry level jobs even as they move out of college kid age into the vaguely defined timeframe of “responsible adult” and from there into “everything was better back then” dementia? At least with proper education they'll be able to post forum threads with choice examples of police brutality once the coppers find out how to get an easy catch...

As I understand it the problem with illegal immigration into the U.S. is it supposed size/volume, and the low-income, low-education, criminal-activity love triangle that goes with it? So spending $40m on avoiding 3 out of 3 for those who didn't actually make that choice and show some promise as future tax payers (it helps to have significant amount of education when filling in government paperwork, which in turn is a prerequisite for doing everything legal) seems good value for money compared to, the TSA, say.

EDIT 2: Of course the cynic would say that $40m is a cheap bargain to ensure that the illegal immigrants will be tied up doing useless college fluff at some third rate institution, instead of actually getting useful qualifications and becoming a real competitor. For instance as much the US IT workforce representatives might like to complain about foreigners undercutting the natives, the fact is that US companies pay (in comparison) top dollar to hire those foreigners *instead* of having to resort to clueless college kids at home. US colleges maintaining a generally poor standard for “CS” courses.

Secondly, if you want to get a head start: college degree is not it. That merely ensures your application is not immediately binned by HR drones who don't know what to look for anyway. Having some tangible stuff on the “projects” part of a C.V. is worth a lot more, and will help you with your interviews: you've got some real experience to talk about, as opposed to college level “doctrine” for a change.

I'm with acin, I don't think it's right to give financial aid to illegal immigrants when it could be going to citizens and legal immigrants.

But on the other hand, the Dream act is intended for those who have grown up in the US and so are likely to remain in the US for most of their lives, so it does benefit the economy, although as Panzer pointed out an illegal will have a hard time finding a high level job even with a degree because companies aren't supposed to hire illegals.

I think if financial aid was prioritized so that citizens receive aid first, legal immigrants second and illegals last; and illegal immigrants receive legal residency or citizenship as a reward for the completion of their degree the Dream Act could be a good way to help tackle the problem of illegal immigration.

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Originally Posted by Tuuvi

I think if financial aid was prioritized so that citizens receive aid first, legal immigrants second and illegals last; and illegal immigrants receive legal residency or citizenship as a reward for the completion of their degree the Dream Act could be a good way to help tackle the problem of illegal immigration.

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The bold part is actually a big component of the Federal​ Dream Act, which has been defeated many times.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Immigrants are good for the country. It's good to subsidize them even at the expense of natives.

I'll grant you that there's a ton of other issues relating to the state of our colleges and financial aid and such...

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Legal immigrants are good, not illegal ones. There is a difference.

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Originally Posted by hero di classico

Legal immigrants are good, not illegal ones. There is a difference.

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An exaggerated one. Anyway, these are the kids of illegal immigrants.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

An exaggerated one. Anyway, these are the kids of illegal immigrants.

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I guess how exaggerated depends on how important you think laws are....

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I guess how exaggerated depends on how important you think laws are....

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Do parents have a moral obligation to try and get a good life for their children?

Rewarding children for their parents lawlessness is the best choice out there. Scholarships for the children of meth lab operators is next.

I don't think this will have any effect on increasing Immigration, as was stated earlier in this thread, because it is highly unlikely that someone will think "Hey things have been pretty bad here and I'm teetering on the edge about whether or not to cross the border, but hey if my kid can get money from the government to attend college in 3 years then sure, I'll do it!" The problems that cause illegal immigration are far more deeply-rooted than that.

Not giving thekids money makes it seem like you are blaming them for the perceived mistakes of their parents. If one can argue that the money should not be given to the children of illegal immigrants, then one can apply the same logic equally to disqualifying them from College at all, as they take up spots that could be given to Americans.

If they are illegal immigrants then send them home, with their kids.

Funding illegal immigrants over natives, really? Sure way not to get elected.

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Originally Posted by Ja'chyra

Sure way not to get elected.

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Not so:

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The issue may not have the same divisive force it had two decades ago in California, said Dan Schnur, director of the Jesse M. Unruh Institute of Politics at USC.

"There's no question both bills are very controversial, but they might be less risky and divisive for the governor than they would have been several years ago," Schnur said. "Five years ago, it was risky. Twenty years ago, it might have been political suicide. But today, there's not much political impact on Brown one way or the other."

After 20 years of polling showing overwhelming support for withholding public services to undocumented residents, a poll last year showed California evenly divided, Schnur said. That can be attributed to the growing Latino population, but also the sympathy of younger, white voters.

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Sorry for the double post, but I also had to put this one down here:

PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans are more likely to say they would vote for than against a law that would grant legal status to illegal immigrants brought to the United States as children if they join the military or attend college. This is the major thrust of the DREAM Act legislation Congress is now considering to provide a path to citizenship for thousands of young adults living in the United States illegally.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I just don't think it is fair to everyone else. My last post explains it better.

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I don’t think it is fair to anyone else!

Certainly not the taxpayers or students competing for aid.

Illegal is illegal. I suppose this is just an effort to secure another voting block for their party. It may be an illegal voting block but they have done what they can to make it possible in the past.

I don’t blame the illegals for wanting to be here. I do blame the politicians for smoothing the way and praying on them with pandering legislation.

To me it seems more like overt political corruption. They choose to ignore legality in favor of gaining illegal votes.

How dose that benefit society?