New(?) Cavalry tactic/exploit

First off, I am not sure on whether this is new or not, but I couldn't find any reference to this from Frogbeastegg's unit guide, nor from any other guides.
Secondly, this tactic might be considered as a borderline exploit, like the two-rank swordsmen tactic but even more so.

So, I have noticed that when you put a high-charge(relatively) cavalry unit (e.g. mounted sergeants, feudal knights or Armenian heavy cav) in a single line and hold formation, then charge it at enemy unit (the formation has to be relatively intact) but at last second switch to Engage at will, it will cause the enemy unit to take heavy casualties and insta-rout. The timing of the switch is important - too late or too early will not yield such dratic results, though it still may work on some weak units. The rout is really instant - sometimes the unit routs so fast that after the battle ended and the win-screen pops up, when you hower your cursor over the enemy unit, it does not show any losses although the unit took considerable losses.

This does not work on spearmen or pikes, nor foot knights (though they will take casualties), and does not work well on polearms (the timing has to be perfect and probably multiple charges needed).

I theorise that the insta-rout is due to combined morale shocks from casualties, cavalry charge and being outflanked due to the single line formation wrapping around them.

As far as I can assume this manouver works only against swordsmen. But their ability to withstand cavalry is precarious enough without the neccessity to invent some elaborate charge tactics and watch out for the timing of formation changing.

There was a bug in versions earlier than 2.01 if memory serves (not sure though) called informally swipe. Basically cavalry got an infinite charge bonus while on the run. It was a big exploit in the mp game so eventually it was taken out after players requested it.

There was also another bug prior to 1.1 or 2.01 (still not sure) which caused wrapped around units to respond as flanked, so the 2 ranks formation worked well. This was true for all unit types.

If you play an older version than 2.01, none of this sounds surprising.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

As far as I can assume this manouver works only against swordsmen. But their ability to withstand cavalry is precarious enough without the neccessity to invent some elaborate charge tactics and watch out for the timing of formation changing.

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True, but you can also do this with light cavalry, e.g. Armoured Sergeants, which would not normally rout swordsmen in one charge, and thus taking far less losses(even other types of cavalry take less losses - I routed two units of Feudal Men-at-arms with one Armenian Heavy Cavalry without any losses) and requiring far less micromanagement than the otherwise ensuing charge/repeat. Also, this also works somewhat on polearms.

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Originally Posted by gollum

There was a bug in versions earlier than 2.01 if memory serves (not sure though) called informally swipe. Basically cavalry got an infinite charge bonus while on the run. It was a big exploit in the mp game so eventually it was taken out after players requested it.
There was also another bug prior to 1.1 or 2.01 (still not sure) which caused wrapped around units to respond as flanked, so the 2 ranks formation worked well. This was true for all unit types.

If you play an older version than 2.01, none of this sounds surprising.

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Nope, I'm playing Gold edition (From Total War: Eras), and on the menu screen it clearly states that my version is 2.01. I thought that the two ranks bug works still - are my swordsmen just THAT good against spears even without it?

I also tested charging without this tactic, and the results were not nearly as good, so it isn't that.

Swords get a hidden +1 attack against spears, so they are pretty good against them.

Interesting....

I have done similar stuff but never to this extreme and as systematic/calculated. At what difficulty-level was this tested and done? That still probably is the most important question here. Assuming that you play raw MTW, normal? If so, try hard and then expert and see how that goes... Solo/custom battles will do, I think.

If it does work there as well, you might very well have found a new viable tactic for cavalry - given the specific prerequisites materialize during a battle of course (available suitable target - factor X, free unit to do it - factor Y, and clear and wide enough way to target - factor Z). If it works on the higher levels it might even work out on lower levels of major mods as well, you never know.

As for the danger of this being a supposed "exploit".... Don't worry about it - it is not. You can quote me on that any day. And most people who indulge themselves in such considerations usually can not tell the differences between plain bad design and actual exploits anyway - that is my experience anyhow. The few actual exploits in MTW are with few exceptions so nominal in actual impact on the overall game that they can basically ignored anyhow. Besides, this is a legitimate tactic - if somewhat limited in applicability considering the available targets in raw MTW - as you outlined...

Do some more tests on higher levels and post up your results.

...

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

As far as I can assume this manouver works only against swordsmen. But their ability to withstand cavalry is precarious enough without the neccessity to invent some elaborate charge tactics and watch out for the timing of formation changing.

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This is what I call a non-argument.... Even if it might be true somehow, it does not actually disproof the other side or someway provide strength to its own position - which it is was supposed to serve. It is like saying "we don't need to cook a good meal, because it is not necessary. A plain meal is sufficient to do the job." Just because it is not necessary does not exclude the possibility to do it anyway, right? Or that we may still prefer to have a good meal anyways.... :wink2:

- A

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Originally Posted by Axalon

If it does work there as well, you might very well have found a new viable tactic for cavalry - given the specific prerequisites materialize during a battle of course (available suitable target - factor X, free unit to do it - factor Y, and clear and wide enough way to target - factor Z).

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Don't you think that in a game battle (not in a custom one which you can direct the way you want) the specific prerequisites taken together are unlikely to happen? So the tasty meal you speak of is likely to be cooked if you invite an Italian chef with a 5 years working experience received in Japan under a guidance of a Brasilian-born 123,5-kilogram sumo-wrestler. Normally, you can't find a person who would satisfy all the requirements. But you can dream of such one appearing some day and serving sushi pasta de Janeiro. The same is about trying this tactics in custom battles where you can create all necessary conditions for it to succeed. But when the battle is not custom - well, it is encouraging to be aware of this ace up the sleeve, but your long training to excell in it may be found useful once in a blue moon. This is what I call a waste of time.:wall:

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Originally Posted by Girlandir

and serving sushi pasta de Janeiro

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sounds interesting and yummy in fact ;)

:happy2:

It's uses are limited, yes, both in circumstances and targets for it - I have already pointed that out (and you obviously agree with that, Gil) – however so are all tactics. Otherwise we would not bother with any. Tactics would not be necessary…. The trick is to apply the right tactics at the right time and in the right circumstances - this stuff is no exception to that. The more tactics you master, the better and flexible commander you will be in the field. As easy and forgiving as raw MTW might be, I still think we can find some uses for it even there at some point. If so (rethorical, I know so), then it will not be a waste of time. Just because something is rarely relevant does not make it completely irrelevant at all times, right…?

As for the solo-battles you are right, it hardly is the same thing, but the sheer combat-circumstances was not the thing that was interesting on that note, for me anyways. It was the actual and sheer effects of this manoeuvre upon troops with high-level bonuses and how that circumstance might impact on the final results. The question is, whether it is still relevant or not under such circumstances. If not, the uses of this stuff will be further limited and we don’t need any campaign battles to get that info - solo-battles will do just fine for that…

- A

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Originally Posted by Axalon

:happy2:

It's uses are limited, yes, both in circumstances and targets for it - I have already pointed that out (and you obviously agree with that, Gil) – however so are all tactics. Otherwise we would not bother with any. Tactics would not be necessary…. The trick is to apply the right tactics at the right time and in the right circumstances - this stuff is no exception to that. The more tactics you master, the better and flexible commander you will be in the field. As easy and forgiving as raw MTW might be, I still think we can find some uses for it even there at some point. If so (rethorical, I know so), then it will not be a waste of time. Just because something is rarely relevant does not make it completely irrelevant at all times, right…?

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I agree. But the tactics discussed here is hardly applicable because I cannot imagine a battlefield where you can put your 53-men cavalry unit in a single string. It will take a lot of space and will be outside the rest of your army. Then the natural obstacles (trees, water bodies, hills, etc.) will impede the manouver desired. A battlefield with no such obstacles? Perhaps, a desert or a steppe. But factions you are likely to meet in such terrains do not have strong swordsmen (Arab infantry, for instance) or no swordsmen at all (Mongols, Russians), rather excessive cavalry. Well, there are Almos, it is true. So it all boils down to an additional expedient to rout AUM. Of course, I'm speaking about vanilla MTW. The mods you play may offer more chances to apply the tactics discussed.

Gil....

The problem here is not your reasoning or your conclusions but your applied perspective. Because of that, your conclusions – while true in a limited sense – still fails to properly reflect the realities of even raw MTW. Essentially, they are true for the things they address - not for the reality they are intended to reflect…

As we discuss the validity of tactics somehow - including this one - we can not limit ourselves to intact formations and static enemies (however likely) at given terrains because that does not match the circumstances found in MTW – any version. Battles and the circumstances found there are ever changing. The given terrain for battles changes, the type of enemy found in that terrain changes, and the formation-strength of that enemy changes – all the time. Once the battle is on, the only fixed constants we have are those of the field being limited, the numbers of enemies are limited (somehow), and that formations-sizes are limited (somehow). This goes for the “friendlys” as well. The rest are essentially variables and circumstances.

In most battles troops will take casualties somehow. At some point we will not have the luxury to call upon another fresh full-strength formation to do the job – we must then rely on and make do with either damaged or understrength-formations. As your perspective fails to recognize and consider that aspect - and this on all sides (enemies and friendly’s alike) - it is thus flawed.

Once such aspects are recognized and considered - the valid circumstances and possible targets for this manoeuvre drastically increases. As long as we still have a unit with enough men to successfully execute this manoeuvre (I guess that is dictated by the target) – the effect will be the same, just on a smaller scale. Obviously, these realities are valid for raw MTW as well. Now, the available “attractive” targets for this tactic still strike me as limited for raw MTW but it clearly does not confine itself to just AUM’s, that much is obvious. Furthermore, we do not need to be on any steppe or desert in order to execute this manoeuvre either, it can be done anywhere with enough open flat space for it (this in relation to the number men in the unit intended to execute it). That is also obvious. Fighting in an open desert or steppe however usually does provide more favourable circumstances for it (as you already outlined) - but it is still not a necessity for it, neither are intact formations…

Right?

- A

Just to make a note, long cavalry lines (as long as it is practical for a particular map/battle) are not a new tactic. There are mp replays that exhibit that. Men converge to the target, which means you have more hits on the enemy unit than if the formation was deeper. With cavalry against swords it gives a devastating effect.

Well…

At least I am not suggesting that it was, I have done “single line cavalry-charges” plenty of times in the past, as I said “I have done similar stuff”. However, what I am discussing here is - a more extreme and precarious variant of that – something clearly executed differently and with a seemingly even more devastating effect on (low moral) infantry if successfully done (at least on normal-difficulty settings). As outlined by lolpah…

That may very well be a new tactic, or if preferred - a new variant and take on the “single line cavalry-charge”. A more advanced manoeuvre but also more risky. And, that is what I am discussing here (as it is, the validity and relevance of it, as Gil questioned that)...

- A

Weell..:)

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Originally Posted by lolpah

So, I have noticed that when you put a high-charge(relatively) cavalry unit (e.g. mounted sergeants, feudal knights or Armenian heavy cav) in a single line and hold formation, then charge it at enemy unit (the formation has to be relatively intact) but at last second switch to Engage at will, it will cause the enemy unit to take heavy casualties and insta-rout. The timing of the switch is important - too late or too early will not yield such dratic results, though it still may work on some weak units.

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Yes it works, as a line, not necessarily a single line though - just a wide frontage, it was always a favoured tactic of mine. It has got nothing to do with the swipe bug however is still effective in 2.01 and offsets the "swarm of bees" effect you get when charging units in engage at will mode (the whole mob rush the standard bearer).

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Originally Posted by Axalon

Gil....

The problem here is not your reasoning or your conclusions but your applied perspective. Because of that, your conclusions – while true in a limited sense – still fails to properly reflect the realities of even raw MTW. Essentially, they are true for the things they address - not for the reality they are intended to reflect…

As we discuss the validity of tactics somehow - including this one - we can not limit ourselves to intact formations and static enemies (however likely) at given terrains because that does not match the circumstances found in MTW – any version. Battles and the circumstances found there are ever changing. The given terrain for battles changes, the type of enemy found in that terrain changes, and the formation-strength of that enemy changes – all the time. Once the battle is on, the only fixed constants we have are those of the field being limited, the numbers of enemies are limited (somehow), and that formations-sizes are limited (somehow). This goes for the “friendlys” as well. The rest are essentially variables and circumstances.

In most battles troops will take casualties somehow. At some point we will not have the luxury to call upon another fresh full-strength formation to do the job – we must then rely on and make do with either damaged or understrength-formations. As your perspective fails to recognize and consider that aspect - and this on all sides (enemies and friendly’s alike) - it is thus flawed.

Once such aspects are recognized and considered - the valid circumstances and possible targets for this manoeuvre drastically increases. As long as we still have a unit with enough men to successfully execute this manoeuvre (I guess that is dictated by the target) – the effect will be the same, just on a smaller scale. Obviously, these realities are valid for raw MTW as well. Now, the available “attractive” targets for this tactic still strike me as limited for raw MTW but it clearly does not confine itself to just AUM’s, that much is obvious. Furthermore, we do not need to be on any steppe or desert in order to execute this manoeuvre either, it can be done anywhere with enough open flat space for it (this in relation to the number men in the unit intended to execute it). That is also obvious. Fighting in an open desert or steppe however usually does provide more favourable circumstances for it (as you already outlined) - but it is still not a necessity for it, neither are intact formations…

Right?

- A

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I admit that I forgot the undermanned units... Well, it's been too long since I played the game so that I lost track of what may be happening on the battlefield. Thanks for the reminder, Ax. Maybe I will even try the tactics you seconded.

Hi

Does this tactic work, perhaps rather less dramatically, when infantry are doing the charging? E.g., FMAAs vs spears?

Regards
V

Maybe, I don’t know…. It is an interesting question Victor.

It would probably take a troop with very high charge-value to pull it off. In Raw MTW or similar I would go for anything with 6 or more. Gallowglasses, the muslim spearboys Muhad** – whatever their name is – or some fanatics. It might work but I think they main problem will be speed, as I wonder if they will be fast enough to get that effect. Try and find out…



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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Thanks for the reminder, Ax. Maybe I will even try the tactics you seconded.

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No problem... You do that, it might do the trick, you never know... :wink2:

- A

I think I remember someone posted about attacking with two sword units set at a depth of 1, and hitting a spear unit's corners. If you use 60/100 size infantry units, and the spear unit was at a depth of 4, that would in theory mean 30 men from each sword unit would attack the front, for a total of 60, giving a depth of 2-3 men at the front where they are likely to take casualties. There would also be 4 men attacking each flank, and 52 would pile up around the rear. Can't say I've ever tried it, though, and I expect in practice it would not work out nearly that nicely.

Anyone ever tried it?

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Originally Posted by Trapped in Samsara

Does this tactic work, perhaps rather less dramatically, when infantry are doing the charging? E.g., FMAAs vs spears?

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I'm unclear as to which tactic you're referring to, but if it's switching from hold formation to engage at will at the last moment to maintain a wider frontage to optimise "wrap around"(?) - then yes it works well, especially with swords vs spears (the bonus is a factor there). As ever this assumes you're using some reasonable tactics, e.g. not charging head on or uphill, etc...

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Originally Posted by caravel

I'm unclear as to which tactic you're referring to, but if it's switching from hold formation to engage at will at the last moment to maintain a wider frontage to optimise "wrap around"(?) - then yes it works well, especially with swords vs spears (the bonus is a factor there).

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Hi

Yes, that's it.

Cheers
V