Why is it okay for missionaries to lie?

Doesn't their bible say it's wrong to do so?

Almost every missionary report I've read contains accounts of how their god has healed people. Blind people ciuld see again, cancer withdrawing, and even raising people from the dead.

Almost all of these stories come from africa or some isolated community somwhere in the himalayas, the amazon, etc. Needless to say, they can never be confirmed from other sources. And how could they? Raising people from the dead is, unless you're some mad professor with a doomsday machine, quite impossible...

What is the purpose of these gigantic lies? Where is the morality of the people who manufacture and spread them? Why on earth would any sane person believe them?

And why doesn't other missionaries speak out against this nonsense? Are there no sane missionaries, or are they all lying bastards?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Doesn't their bible say it's wrong to do so?

Almost every missionary report I've read contains accounts of how their god has healed people. Blind people ciuld see again, cancer withdrawing, and even raising people from the dead.

Almost all of these stories come from africa or some isolated community somwhere in the himalayas, the amazon, etc. Needless to say, they can never be confirmed from other sources. And how could they? Raising people from the dead is, unless you're some mad professor with a doomsday machine, quite impossible...

What is the purpose of these gigantic lies? Where is the morality of the people who manufacture and spread them? Why on earth would any sane person believe them?

And why doesn't other missionaries speak out against this nonsense? Are there no sane missionaries, or are they all lying bastards?

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Do you think that communism promotes and creates economic growth?

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Do you think that communism promotes and creates economic growth?

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Um, what?

If you're talking about soviet-style communism, nah. And that might explain why people who define themselves as communist rarely speak about economic growth, they are in other because of other things.(equality, hippestuff, etc). But then again, the USSR did have a very high growth rate in the years after ww2 - the consensus among histories seems to be that it represented "the height" of mass production, but that it proved completely incapable of adjusting to a changing world, which the market manages to do wonderfully.

If you're talking about China, well... It's a rather undeniable fact that China has had a growth rate of about 10% per year over the last decade or so. Whether that represents "communism" is quite debatable.

But what does that have to do with missionaries blatantly lying abiut raising the dead? The bible is quite clear about lying being a sin you know... And communism of course does not have a ban on lies ~;)

I think some of them genuinely believe what they are saying

Others justify the means by the ends

And others are just doing it for money. Watch an American television ministry sometime, and you will be shocked. In statements carefully crafted by their lawyers, they outright claim that if you send them money you will be healed, riches will be bestowed on you, opportunities will arise and new doors will open, and they even suggest that the level of blessing correlates to the amount of money. Seriously, on TV. And apparently, it's prefectly legal.

My birth mom was into those shows and she was psycho religious. She would send the rent money to the 700 Club and then act surprised when we got evicted.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Um, what?

If you're talking about soviet-style communism, nah. And that might explain why people who define themselves as communist rarely speak about economic growth, they are in other because of other things.(equality, hippestuff, etc). But then again, the USSR did have a very high growth rate in the years after ww2 - the consensus among histories seems to be that it represented "the height" of mass production, but that it proved completely incapable of adjusting to a changing world, which the market manages to do wonderfully.

If you're talking about China, well... It's a rather undeniable fact that China has had a growth rate of about 10% per year over the last decade or so. Whether that represents "communism" is quite debatable.

But what does that have to do with missionaries blatantly lying abiut raising the dead? The bible is quite clear about lying being a sin you know... And communism of course does not have a ban on lies ~;)

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Because in the eyes of theoretical economics communism is a blatant enemy of the guiding principles of economic growth. Are you blatantly lying through your teeth? My econ book is pretty clear certain conditions should be present to encourage economic growth you know.

So
A. Maybe they aren't lying.

B. Maybe they think it is a miracle. There have been plenty of verified cases in the west of "miracles" that have happened that are then explained easily using western medicine and very expensive machines. For some reason I doubt that MRI and X ray machines are floating around the bush.

Just because YOU have no faith and don't believe in a God doesn't mean he isn't real. Hell, I felt self obsessed just writing that.

I get the God Channel here - it's quite fun to watch actually.

But the ones who honestly believe it - how is it possible to do so? Religious insanity, or what?

As for those who believe the end justifies the means - how do they manage to circumvent a rather direct commandment from their god so easily?

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

My birth mom was into those shows and she was psycho religious. She would send the rent money to the 700 Club and then act surprised when we got evicted.

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Wow, that's...messed up.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Because in the eyes of theoretical economics communism is a blatant enemy of the guiding principles of economic growth. Are you blatantly lying through your teeth? My econ book is pretty clear certain conditions should be present to encourage economic growth you know.

So
A. Maybe they aren't lying.

B. Maybe they think it is a miracle. There have been plenty of verified cases in the west of "miracles" that have happened that are then explained easily using western medicine and very expensive machines. For some reason I doubt that MRI and X ray machines are floating around the bush.

Just because YOU have no faith and don't believe in a God doesn't mean he isn't real. Hell, I felt self obsessed just writing that.

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I would be blatantly lying if I said the USSR was the best system ever for creating economic growth. But as it happens, I don't. And seeing as I'm not a communist or favour a planned economy, why on earth would I? Both the USSR and China have, however, had two periods of very high growth. The USSR in the post-war years(until late 60's/early 70's), and China has its period now. Now, if your economy books deny that, then who's the one lying? But can that be attributed to a planned economy alone, or even at all? Doubtful in the USSR case, highly unlikely with China.

And for crying out loud - of course they're lying. A baby dead for two weeks, raised from the dead. That cannot happen, and so the tale is an obvious lie. And I bet they know it. I mean, these people are trying to convert people by performing "miracles". If they had actually managed to raise someone from the dead through the power of god, what would they do? Contact every newspaper in the world to spread the story, that's what. Not hide it away in their organizations newspaper where noone will read it and noone gets saved... So, the reason why they haven't gone to mainstream media with their story is very sinple - they know they've just made it all up.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

B. Maybe they think it is a miracle. There have been plenty of verified cases in the west of "miracles" that have happened that are then explained easily using western medicine and very expensive machines. For some reason I doubt that MRI and X ray machines are floating around the bush.

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Sorry, but even if this is true for some cases it's still a lame excuse. Just because you don't know of a rational explanation for something (or worse: the scientific community doesn't know of one yet) doesn't mean it's okay to assume it's divine intervention. That smells of confirmation bias.

Hypochondria, kleptomania and over diseases of the mind are around.

Would you hold the victim of a mental illness responsible for their acts?

Btw I'm not saying all missionaries have a mental illness. But some of them will crack like anyone isolated and exposed to culture shock and the euphoria of travel.

For instance are holiday romances lies because they happen under exotic locations?

I'll think you'll find when people go on holidays on ships, resorts and hotels they operate under a different set of responses then normal.

Some will believe the one night stand at the resort is the start of a life time adventure.

Self delusion exists, we lie to ourselves everyday. It's a problem where it leads to harm. Just look at the rise of obesity it's just one example of the consequences of daily small denials.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Hypochondria, kleptomania and over diseases of the mind are around.

Would you hold the victim of a mental illness responsible for their acts?

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I'm not proposing to burn them at the stake, am I?

I'm interested in their motivations, not punishment...

I'm interested in punishment

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Doesn't their bible say it's wrong to do so?

Almost every missionary report I've read contains accounts of how their god has healed people. Blind people ciuld see again, cancer withdrawing, and even raising people from the dead.

Almost all of these stories come from africa or some isolated community somwhere in the himalayas, the amazon, etc. Needless to say, they can never be confirmed from other sources. And how could they? Raising people from the dead is, unless you're some mad professor with a doomsday machine, quite impossible...

What is the purpose of these gigantic lies? Where is the morality of the people who manufacture and spread them? Why on earth would any sane person believe them?

And why doesn't other missionaries speak out against this nonsense? Are there no sane missionaries, or are they all lying bastards?

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Well - there are two possibilities, given that the boy is alive, he either wasn't dead or he was and then he wasn't.

Are some miracles manufactured? Yes, certainly, there are documented cases of fraud. However, just because you do not believe something does not mean it is not true.

I have seen some weird stuff, including a guy apparently reclining backwards 30 degrees from the ground supported on nothing but air. I have had a "faith" healer lay his hands on me and straigten my shoulders, which were crocked. I do not say God did these things, he did not say God did these things, but I do say they happened.

Now - prove these missionaries are lying, they could just be mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

There are many thousands of missionaries out on actual missions at any given time. I'm sure most of them are more interested in doing good works and trying to impart their morality than in fabricating claims of miracles. There are always bad apples, though.

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Then why are none of them speaking out against it?

And I don't know about the US, but the major Norwegian missionary organizations are all "pro-miracle", including such things as raising the dead. So for me, it's a fair assumption that the majority are involved with fabricating and spreading lies.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Well - there are two possibilities, given that the boy is alive, he either wasn't dead or he was and then he wasn't.

Are some miracles manufactured? Yes, certainly, there are documented cases of fraud. However, just because you do not believe something does not mean it is not true.

I have seen some weird stuff, including a guy apparently reclining backwards 30 degrees from the ground supported on nothing but air. I have had a "faith" healer lay his hands on me and straigten my shoulders, which were crocked. I do not say God did these things, he did not say God did these things, but I do say they happened.

Now - prove these missionaries are lying, they could just be mistaken.

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I do believe I already have - if they were telling the truth, they would've contacted mainstream media. They do not, so it's obvious that they know its a fake.

I mean, why on earth would an organization focused on saving millions keep quiet about an event which could potentially save millions? There's no logic in that, hence it's a lie.

And do I really have to point out that there is zero evidence of said boy ever existing? It should be quite obvious that he too is a fabrication.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

For all I know they are speaking out against it. I don't spend a whole lot of time in the missionary information loop, so to speak. Do you?

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I read the three major norwegian christian newspapers(Norge IDAG, Vårt Land and Dagen) regularly, so yeah. Never seen it mentioned.

(they're a never-ending source of epic lols and facepalms, I love 'em!)

Motivation is simple.

Scientist or Shepard we are a race of storytellers.

We love to be part of stories be they novel, dance, games or social media including this very forum.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Motivation is simple.

Scientist or Shepard we are a race of storytellers.

We love to be part of stories be they novel, dance, games or social media including this very forum.

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I can accept that.

However, christianity is rather big on the no-lies thing, and that explanation alone doesn't explain why they so easily circumvent a major thingy in their religion... Especially since the people we are talking about here have above-average knowledge and fanaticism...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I can accept that.

However, christianity is rather big on the no-lies thing, and that explanation alone doesn't explain why they so easily circumvent a major thingy in their religion... Especially since the people we are talking about here have above-average knowledge and fanaticism...

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We rely once again on the fact that your entire premise is based around the idea that they are lying. Can you prove they are? Is it impossible that it happened? When you can prove the non existence of God then you can prove miracles dont exist. I understand you think you know everything and are a shining beacon of truth and justice in the world but you aren't. You don't know everything and I hope maybe when your older you realize that.

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But can that be attributed to a planned economy alone, or even at all? Doubtful in the USSR case, highly unlikely with China.

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China's economy is half investment, much of it by the state...

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Is it impossible that it happened? When you can prove the non existence of God then you can prove miracles dont exist.

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However, just because you do not believe something does not mean it is not true.

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Why should we believe it?

It is you who must prove the validity of these claims to us. In the meantime, presumption of falsity is best.

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Now - prove these missionaries are lying, they could just be mistaken.

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The latter is fine.

Have I been doing that position all wrong for the past 3 years?

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

We rely once again on the fact that your entire premise is based around the idea that they are lying. Can you prove they are? Is it impossible that it happened? When you can prove the non existence of God then you can prove miracles dont exist. I understand you think you know everything and are a shining beacon of truth and justice in the world but you aren't. You don't know everything and I hope maybe when your older you realize that.

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They claim they have raised the dead. That cannot happen under any circumstances whatsoever. Hence, lie.

As for me "claiming I know everything", well that's just sillyness. Knowing that dead people are dead people does NOT equal "claiming to know everything".

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Have I been doing that position all wrong for the past 3 years?

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Blow up dolls don't count

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Blow up dolls don't count

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They are called "internally pressurized, anatomically simulated, sexual stimulators", dad. And she has a name.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I do believe I already have - if they were telling the truth, they would've contacted mainstream media. They do not, so it's obvious that they know its a fake.

I mean, why on earth would an organization focused on saving millions keep quiet about an event which could potentially save millions? There's no logic in that, hence it's a lie.

And do I really have to point out that there is zero evidence of said boy ever existing? It should be quite obvious that he too is a fabrication.

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You looked it up on the Nigerian census?

Read the report - the "Native" doctor declared the boy dead. The witchdoctor said the boy was dead, the parents took him to the mission and after three days he woke up.

Who is the pastor holding in the photograph? His own son?

THINK critically, there is no evidence of fabrication - what there is, is evidence that the locals are medically ignorant.

As to the why, these things happen all the time in Africa, they used to happen all the time in Europe too - the reason you used to have a Vigil with an open casket is because you couldn't necessarily be sure the man was dead. More recently you had bells atached to caskets and Swedish enbalmers used to drive a knife straight into the artery to make sure they were dead.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Have I been doing that position all wrong for the past 3 years?

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You haven't been doing this position. This position requires a human female

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You haven't been doing this position. This position requires a human female

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ur late to the party with that one. lurk moar.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

You looked it up on the Nigerian census?

Read the report - the "Native" doctor declared the boy dead. The witchdoctor said the boy was dead, the parents took him to the mission and after three days he woke up.

Who is the pastor holding in the photograph? His own son?

THINK critically, there is no evidence of fabrication - what there is, is evidence that the locals are medically ignorant.

As to the why, these things happen all the time in Africa, they used to happen all the time in Europe too - the reason you used to have a Vigil with an open casket is because you couldn't necessarily be sure the man was dead. More recently you had bells atached to caskets and Swedish enbalmers used to drive a knife straight into the artery to make sure they were dead.

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What we have is this:
1. One obvious and big lie(raising the dead).
2. No other sources. At all. The only mention of this incident is on that webpage. None of the names of the involved give any results on google.
3. But we know of several similar stories. Very similar in fact, the biggest difference between them is the names of the involved.

Add them all together, and we have a certain fabrication. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think otherwise.

The "night of the living dead"-type stories are one of my absolute favourite fabrications though. A close tie with the story about the doctor(usually anonymous, sometimes given a generic name like J. Smith) who measured a soul leaving the body of someone dying "scientifically".

Edit: and if your "ignorant blacks"-theory was correct, it would still be a lie, since the missionaries would know what really happened, but instead chose to spread the lie about raising the dead.

I love you HoreTore, I really do.

What he's saying is that sometimes people end up in a comatose state with very weak vitals, and can be mistakenly declared dead while in such a state; if and when they recover - especially if it's while in a morgue - it appears as though that individual has "returned from the dead".

As in, without explicit intent to deceive - when it's this sort of situation, at least.