This is why I think Zionism in its current form is so dangerous

NY Times article

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JERUSALEM — Seven Israeli teenagers were in custody on Monday, accused of what a police official and several witnesses described as an attempted lynching of several Palestinian youths, laying bare the undercurrent of tension in this ethnically mixed but politically divided city. A 15-year-old suspect standing outside court said, “For my part he can die, he’s an Arab.”

The police said that scores of Jewish youths were involved in the attack late Thursday in West Jerusalem’s Zion Square, leaving one 17-year-old unconscious and hospitalized. Hundreds of bystanders watched the mob beating, the police said — and no one intervened.

Two of the suspects were girls, the youngest 13, adding to the soul-searching and acknowledgment that the poisoned political environment around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has affected the moral compass of youths growing up within it.

“If it was up to me, I’d have murdered him,” the 15-year-old suspect told reporters outside court on Monday. “He cursed my mother.” The young man who was beaten unconscious, Jamal Julani, remained in the hospital.

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Unfortunately this seems to be the standard thinking among my fellow Jews, and there doesnt seem to be much in the way of trying to remedy this extremism within the Jewish community, both in the US and in Israel, which is why I believe Israel will rot from within in the next 50 years until it is a rotting shell of what it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Unfortunately this seems to be the standard thinking among my fellow Jews, and there doesnt seem to be much in the way of trying to remedy this extremism within the Jewish community, both in the US and in Israel, which is why I believe Israel will rot from within in the next 50 years until it is a rotting shell of what it used to be.

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The problem will persist for as long as the Israeli government keeps footing the bill for the officially sanctioned parasites. Yes, I'm talking about the guys in funny black hats who spend their lifetimes deliberating on the most pious way to tie one's own shoes, contribute nothing (well, nothing good) to the society at large and breed like rabbits putting even further strain on the remainder of the Israeli society. They're about to hit what, about 10% mark, no? Cut off the gravy train to those guys, so that they actually have to work for a living, and the extremist problem will subside.

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Originally Posted by rvg

The problem will persist for as long as the Israeli government keeps footing the bill for the officially sanctioned parasites. Yes, I'm talking about the guys in funny black hats who spend their lifetimes deliberating on the most pious way to tie one's own shoes, contribute nothing (well, nothing good) to the society at large and breed like rabbits putting even further strain on the remainder of the Israeli society. They're about to hit what, about 10% mark, no? Cut off the gravy train to those guys, so that they actually have to work for a living, and the extremist problem will subside.

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1) They are actually ending the Tal Law, which is the exemption that the Haredim (the dudes in the funny black hats) get from the army. Whether it will do any good is up for debate.

2) The perpetrators in this incident were not Haredi, judging by the photos.

The problem is, Herdim are breeding at a much faster rate than normal Israelis. Plus, new immigrants, which there are a large number of, are coming to Israel with the idea that Israel is for the Jews and no one else. Its much more prevalent than one might believe.

Those two factors combined spells bad news for Israel.

Nationalism above a certain treshold is always going to be dangerous.

Still, IMO if there is ever going to be peace in Israel, these guys have to negotiate it. There's no sense in negotiations between moderate Israelis and moderate Palestinians; they're not the ones who are fighting anyway.

If there is to be peace, we need an agreement between the guys in the OP and Hamas.

Seems to be like Israel is changing, and not for the better.

What you are describing here is not Zionism.

No, it isnt. It has been perverted into what you see today.

And some things that should not have been forgotten.. were lost.


Nationalism. Bigotry. Didn't we have this problem about, oh say ... 70 or 80 years ago? The irony in all this is just disgusting.

I think the influence and position of the Charedim is only a part of the problem. What makes matters worse is the fact that Israeli wages cannot keep up with the costs of living in Israel, and if the rate with which the wages are growing remains stable, in a couple of years the economy will probably start to suffer badly. Furthermore, and this is where the Orthodox Jewish community ties into it all, is not only the fact that they have the tendency to breed like rabbits (the average Charedi family consists of roughly ten children) is that Charedi schools are free, which has led to non-Orthodox Jews into putting their children on Charedi schools, which will increase their numbers even more.

Most of the people I met in Israel seemed to really dislike the Charedim. One shop-owner described them as maffia-esque; apparently if you open your shop on the Sabbath, they'll come and throw in the windows with bricks the following day.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Most of the people I met in Israel seemed to really dislike the Charedim. One shop-owner described them as maffia-esque; apparently if you open your shop on the Sabbath, they'll come and throw in the windows with bricks the following day.

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Yup, thats pretty much everywhere except Tel Aviv and maybe a few other very secular places, but Tel Aviv seems to be a bastion of sanity.

Where I stayed for 7 months (a subdivision of Bet Shemesh), the park was not allowed a playground because they were afraid that girls would play on it and be immodest. Thats on top of making them wear dark and heavy long sleeve shirts and long skirts in an area that often gets to over 35 degrees Celsius for most of the year.
And did I mention that most homes in this area dont have air conditioning?

Im not sure whats worse: the fact that they are so terrified of seven year old girls playing on a jungle gym or the fact that obviously a number of these Charedim are aroused by it.

But yeah, everyone who isnt Charedi hates the Charedim.

Seems like a lot of the governments in the middle east have been full of very silly people.

Alot of governments everywhere have been full of very silly people.

I suppose so. That's democracy for ya. This time you get to CHOOSE your dictator!

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Yup, thats pretty much everywhere except Tel Aviv and maybe a few other very secular places, but Tel Aviv seems to be a bastion of sanity.

Where I stayed for 7 months (a subdivision of Bet Shemesh), the park was not allowed a playground because they were afraid that girls would play on it and be immodest. Thats on top of making them wear dark and heavy long sleeve shirts and long skirts in an area that often gets to over 35 degrees Celsius for most of the year.
And did I mention that most homes in this area dont have air conditioning?

Im not sure whats worse: the fact that they are so terrified of seven year old girls playing on a jungle gym or the fact that obviously a number of these Charedim are aroused by it.

But yeah, everyone who isnt Charedi hates the Charedim.

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Charedim are like any priestly cast in a theocracy (Israel is an ethno-theocracy, I'm afraid), they have to have oppressive rules people break to justify their existence.

A priest is spiritual healer, when you have a surplus of priests they become quacks who diagnose spurious ailments constantly and aggressively so that they can "cure" them.

This is the problem in Israel with the Charedim - but it is only part of the problem.

The other part of the problem is that Israel should never have been created, as it displaced the Arabs already living there. A point to be recognised is that many anti-Semites supported an Israeli State as a way of getting Jews out of Europe. The long-term viability of such a State, and the fate of any Israeli or Arab people, were not issues they were concerned with.

Of course, like all other peoples throughout history, they underestimated the strength of the Jewish identity.

Modern day Jews are the only people in the Near East or Europe who still worship the same ancestral God they did 2,500-3,000 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

And some things that should not have been forgotten.. were lost.


Nationalism. Bigotry. Didn't we have this problem about, oh say ... 70 or 80 years ago? The irony in all this is just disgusting.

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Perhaps the lesson learned from that conflict was that if one possesses or is soon to possess nukes, genocide and forced emigration is a-okay?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Modern day Jews are the only people in the Near East or Europe who still worship the same ancestral God they did 2,500-3,000 years ago.

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There are still some Samaritans around. Almost extinct, though.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Modern day Jews are the only people in the Near East or Europe who still worship the same ancestral God they did 2,500-3,000 years ago.

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Well using your own logic on permanance of belief I am sure Zoroastrians might have something to say about it.

Also don't modern day Jews actually worship a different God to the Gods the Jews worshipped 3000 yrs ago, or at least they have forgotten that there praying to a God of war from a polytheistic faith.

Also Hindu faith is the oldest organised religion, dating 7000 years, I believe.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

There are still some Samaritans around. Almost extinct, though.

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Samaritans are heretical Jews, in the literal sense, so they are newer

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Well using your own logic on permanance of belief I am sure Zoroastrians might have something to say about it.Also don't modern day Jews actually worship a different God to the Gods the Jews worshipped 3000 yrs ago, or at least they have forgotten that there praying to a God of war from a polytheistic faith.

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Ah - but Zoroastrianism is no longer intrinsically linked to Persian identity and hasn't been for a millennium, and there's some debate about the exact place of Zoroastor the Prophet in Persian identity even before the coming of Islam.Dates are also somewhat equivocal, it's hard to say whether worship of El-Yahweh predates the exile or not. Which leads me into your final point, quite by accident, the concept of "Polytheism" is very slippery, when you ask "Are Jews Polytheistic before Babylon" you are asking an anachronistic question - what we do no is that the Jews only ever acknowledged one God as Supreme - El. El's rule was undisputed, and it then becomes a very difficult question as to whether you consider the beings under Him "Gods" or "Angels".Never a Polytheistic "War God" though - El means "The Lord", i.e. THE Lord, of everything.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

Also Hindu faith is the oldest organised religion, dating 7000 years, I believe.

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The earliest texts date back that far - but I am unclear if the theology is even similar. There is an argument in Hinduism over whether it is a Polytheistic or Monotheistic faith. Monotheism is being rejected as "Westernisation" in some quarters.In any case - I said "Europe and the Near East", I deliberately excluded India for just the reason that I know almost nothing about it.

Yahweh as a god existed before the Persian and Babylonic times, but at this point he wasn't a monotheïstic god. On the contrary he even is evidenced to have a wife (can't remember the name at the moment) at this time. The religion kept very much changing afterwards still and it isn't untill the late ancient age/early medieval age we get a somewhat consistent religion that is comparable with the current one.

I have a great article on that laying around at college, but I'm at home now so can't look up. But I can some time this week, if you want some more information on the development of Jewish religion and identity. Though that may be off-topic.

Edit: Yahwah's wife apparantly was called Asherah (thank you google).

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Originally Posted by Moros

Yahweh as a god existed before the Persian and Babylonic times, but at this point he wasn't a monotheïstic god. On the contrary he even is evidenced to have a wife (can't remember the name at the moment) at this time. The religion kept very much changing afterwards still and it isn't untill the late ancient age/early medieval age we get a somewhat consistent religion that is comparable with the current one.

I have a great article on that laying around at college, but I'm at home now so can't look up. But I can some time this week, if you want some more information on the development of Jewish religion and identity. Though that may be off-topic.

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I'd like to read that one

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I'd like to read that one

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I'll try to pass it on, but it might take a week or two before I have time and am able to get it in Leuven.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The earliest texts date back that far - but I am unclear if the theology is even similar. There is an argument in Hinduism over whether it is a Polytheistic or Monotheistic faith. Monotheism is being rejected as "Westernisation" in some quarters.In any case - I said "Europe and the Near East", I deliberately excluded India for just the reason that I know almost nothing about it.

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Hindu theology is fluid, changing over the eons. And you also get the usual divergent beliefs between god cults. When someone posted some audio of Buddhist lectures a while ago the lecturer described Indian religion as Orthopraxy rather than Orthodoxy. That is ritual is far more important than theological belief.

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Originally Posted by Moros

Yahweh as a god existed before the Persian and Babylonic times, but at this point he wasn't a monotheïstic god. On the contrary he even is evidenced to have a wife (can't remember the name at the moment) at this time. The religion kept very much changing afterwards still and it isn't untill the late ancient age/early medieval age we get a somewhat consistent religion that is comparable with the current one.

I have a great article on that laying around at college, but I'm at home now so can't look up. But I can some time this week, if you want some more information on the development of Jewish religion and identity. Though that may be off-topic.

Edit: Yahwah's wife apparantly was called Asherah (thank you google).

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Yes, Yahweh is recorded as having a wife, or perhaps it it is the wife of El, as Yahweh and El were originally distinct entities (Yahweh was the intercessor between Men and El in one version).

I confess to not being especially interested - I don't buy into the "Polytheistic into Monotheistic after Babylon" argument, largely because the current version of the theory states that the Jews abandoned all their Gods but El/Yahweh, which makes little logical sense.

If your Gods have failed you, why keep their King? No, you get rid of all of them and you adopt better Gods, usually the ones that beat your God.

No, I think there was always a strand of monotheism in Judaic theology, albeit a minority one, and it came of age after the Jewish state was virtually destroyed by the Babylonians

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Originally Posted by lars573

Hindu theology is fluid, changing over the eons. And you also get the usual divergent beliefs between god cults. When someone posted some audio of Buddhist lectures a while ago the lecturer described Indian religion as Orthopraxy rather than Orthodoxy. That is ritual is far more important than theological belief.

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Which is a way of saying it's not really the same religion it was 500 years ago, let alone 3,000.

"Orthopraxy" is an interesting term though, that sounds like pre-Reformation Catholicism.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Yes, Yahweh is recorded as having a wife, or perhaps it it is the wife of El, as Yahweh and El were originally distinct entities (Yahweh was the intercessor between Men and El in one version).

I confess to not being especially interested - I don't buy into the "Polytheistic into Monotheistic after Babylon" argument, largely because the current version of the theory states that the Jews abandoned all their Gods but El/Yahweh, which makes little logical sense.

If your Gods have failed you, why keep their King? No, you get rid of all of them and you adopt better Gods, usually the ones that beat your God.

No, I think there was always a strand of monotheism in Judaic theology, albeit a minority one, and it came of age after the Jewish state was virtually destroyed by the Babylonians

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Well I'm not too fond of the idea that because of the Babylon exile (can't come up with the correct word for a reason , guess it's just too late) people forsake those gods because of it. I'd assume it was slower evolution and at most points there'll have been multiple ideas/theologies current. Which I think is the rather the rule anyway. I think Yahweh took on some of the characteristics of El and slowly perhaps took his role and replaced them. It's something that happened at least with other Semitic gods, for a variety of reasons. Perhaps even got the wife passed down. Possibly El and Jahwah both had Ashera as a wife at the same time, but at different communities/places/ethnicities/... Things get borrowed, assimilated, discarded,... in religion and during such long periods and less connected communities and all that makes for a complicated and not unilinear evolution. Monolaterism was probably an earlier step to take before monotheism and I'd actually doubt this idea originated from the jews themselves, not only because earlier examples are known, but exactly one is known from Babylon. If messianism wasn't something that came to be much later (hellenistic age), we'd even have a stronger case. Of course there could have been other or perhaps there were multiple external influences for Monolaterism or monotheism. If I only had the time to read up on the subject as it does interest me somewhat how the 'big religions' came to be, or rather how clearly they are a product of their own society, their problems, their external influences and all.

I did a study on Asherah or Arstarte as we call her.
She was undeniably worshiped by the Israelites up to the Deuteronomical purging.

Just look in Kings where Elijah contents with the priests of Baal, there is also a mention of the priests of the groves (groves should be substituted with Ashera in KJ).
Elijah has all of the priests of Baal killed, but leaves the priests of Asherah alone.

They seem to have planted groves or asheras in the temple up to several times. Interestingly Asherah was the wife of El, mother of Yahweh in both the early Isralite and Canaanite religions. She was worshiped as (the) a tree of life, hence the grove ref.

When God put Adam and Eve out of the garden, he put cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life, so that they would not take of its fruit and live forever in their sin.
Eternal life was also the fruit of the loin of Asherah the mother of God (A Saviour).
I also find it interesting that the Virgin Mary has been idolized more or less the same way as Asherah pre-deuteronomical reform. The fruit of the loins of Mary will give eternal life if you partake of it. Is this not the Christian mantra?
I could nearly put an equation between Mary and Asherah. The mixup between El and Yahweh is specially interesting in the Trinity discussion. :sneaky:

Asherah is also considered the wisdom you find in the “wisdom literature” in the the Old Testament.

Some scholars suggest that the Jews still have an Asherah in their worship, the 7 armed candlebaum, the Menorah. The meaning of the menorah is related to both Wisdom and a tree. Anciently its stylizm was that of an almond tree, noted by its purity and whiteness. The Almond tree – archaic greek: amygdale which is borrowed from the Hebrew em gedolah which interprets Great Mother.

Third edit: I keep remembering stuff.
There is an interesting reference in a book called Egyptian Tales and Romances (p 280). Apparently a translation of a coptic text: The Revelations of St. Paul
It states:

And He showed me the tree of life and by it was a revolvingred-hot sword. And a Virgin appeared by the tree... and the angel told me she was Mary, the mother of Christ.

:juggle: