why are most factions poor?

I downloaded this mod because everybody always said how great it was, for my first game I decided to play as Macedon, the game starts and I’m surrounded by enemies and I have a negative income.

After failing a few times I decided to try out the Arabian faction, despite the games claiming it had an easy start I stared off surrounded by strong rebel cities and again I had negative income.

Why do so many factions start off with negative income? Starting off surrounded by many enemies is challenging, starting you off with a negative income is just frustrating.

Because your army is too large. You get negative income because your unit upkeep is higher than your income. You can usually break even again when you conquer some Eleutheroi around you. The upkeep will go down because of casualties and your income will go up because of the new cities.

Macedon was in terrible shape in 272 because it was just recovering from a Galatian raid of epic proportions (amongst other things, the Galatians killed the previous Macedonian king IIRC). Also your faction (i.e. Antigonos Gonatas and his followers) had just taken over at that point and needed to establish a secure power base.

As for Saba, their start is "EB easy", which is more difficult than RTW vanilla, but more importantly requires some adjustments to your play style. For more information on that, check out the beginner's help thread linked in my signature, which features many tips from experienced EB players.
You can take the neighbouring towns relatively easily if you camp outside when they sally and utilize your missile troops to maximum efficiency. Saba FMs are also quite strong against light infantry. The campaign will get difficult when you are sandwiched between two immediate neighbours who have a better tech tree and superior units, as well as a large empire each.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by themilo

Why do so many factions start off with negative income? Starting off surrounded by many enemies is challenging, starting you off with a negative income is just frustrating.

---

If you're having real difficulty with the smaller factions, try starting with one of the big factions - Quarthadast (Carthaginians) or Ptolemies (Egypt). They are so rich that their economy is making profit right from the start. Or you could try the Romans, of course.

Arche Seleukia is the biggest faction at the start, so money isn't much of a problem, but micro-managing that huge empire is quite a task, plus fighting the Pahlava (Parthians) is not easy at the beginning - horse archers are murder on your poor quality starting units and the Parthian bodyguards are better than your own family member bodyguards. And fighting the Saka is even harder. You will almost certainly lose a few border territories early on before your get your economy and army organised.

AS requires too much macro and micro for a beginner to be comfortable with IMO. Macedon is a gamble, as are KH and Baktria. I'd recommend Carthage or Rome, both have fairly unique units and a powerful economy, as well as an easy start. I believe the OP could actually succeed with his start as Saba, if he adjusts his style accordingly. Their economy isn't super strong, but decent enough to make up for a few botched early turns. Plus once you have conquered two settlements, Saba should be getting positive income.

Actually the one faction with the most "horrible startig debt" potential is Lusitania, I believe. They start with four or so extremely expensive units of elite cavalry which are good later on in the campaign (against elephants or for harassing slow Carthaginian/Roman units), but almost useless at the start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by athanaric

Actually the one faction with the most "horrible startig debt" potential is Lusitania, I believe. They start with four or so extremely expensive units of elite cavalry which are good later on in the campaign (against elephants or for harassing slow Carthaginian/Roman units), but almost useless at the start.

---

I use two of those four units of elite light cavalry to help my Lusotann family members take out the enemy cavalry in Sucum-Murgi and Tyde. They take massive losses in the process, but if used to pin down the enemy horsemen, they can save the life of your general, whose light cavalry bodyguard is too weak to protect him alone against heavier and/or more numerous enemy cavalry. Better to lose a unit of elite light cavalry you can't afford to maintain anyway at the beginning, than to lose a family member.

I’m going to try out Rome since my biggest issue with vanilla Rome is that playing as Rome is very easy, please tell me that the marius reform automatically upgrades all of my units so that I don’t have to manually replace all of my troops.

I tried out some other factions and I’m surprised how many factions start out with negative income and surrounded by enemies, maybe this mod just isn’t for since I like challenging games not frustrating games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by themilo

I’m going to try out Rome since my biggest issue with vanilla Rome is that playing as Rome is very easy, please tell me that the marius reform automatically upgrades all of my units so that I don’t have to manually replace all of my troops.

---

Well the Marian reforms aren't very easy to get - I'm still waiting for them - but there's another reform before that. And the only units that can get "upgraded" to another unit type are the bodyguards of a couple of eastern factions, which happens when Rome upgrades one of her Central Italian cities to "huge".
Rome should be pretty easy though, the first thing is to build paved roads ASAP and take Taras from the Epeirotes (like, during the first few turns). After that, you can slowly expand as you see fit.

Quote:

---

I tried out some other factions and I’m surprised how many factions start out with negative income and surrounded by enemies, maybe this mod just isn’t for since I like challenging games not frustrating games.

---

Well, 272 BC wasn't a very good year for a faction in the Med to be in. Also, you'll get used to the rough start in EB.

Oh, one other tip - highly recommend EB beginners play on Medium/Medium difficulty level. In vanilla you can play Very Hard/Very Hard and still win quite easily, but not in EB.

I know the EB website recommends Medium Battle and Very Hard Campaign difficulty, but Very Hard Campaign is really, very hard. The AI factions get loads of extra money, plus they treat your faction as Public Enemy No.1 as soon as they share a border with you and get very aggressive.

Very Hard battle difficulty is even worse - the enemy troops fight like the near-invincible Spartans in the movie '300' and they have +7 combat and morale bonuses on top of their default stats. Stick to Medium battle difficulty, so the enemy troops get no more bonuses than your own (apart from bonuses gained from the command abilities of the general - AI generals are very good in EB and will have more command stars than yours.)

This may seem like an odd question but can rebel cities train troops in this mod?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by themilo

This may seem like an odd question but can rebel cities train troops in this mod?

---

Most don't, there are very few "rebel cities" that are scrypted to represent actual factions/tribes that cannot be represented in the game due to limits of the RTW engine. You will see these rebel cities have a full stack in its capital, and a roaming full stack. Also, once you siege the city another army pops up. I can't remember them all, but I know there is 1 in the Iberian peninsula and 2 in/around the Alps representing 2 major gallic tribes (Helvetti, and Boii) IIRC.

....ps, its been years since I posted in this forum!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by themilo

This may seem like an odd question but can rebel cities train troops in this mod?

---

They do, but usually only low tier units, unless there's a script involved (see above).

Rome is very easy in the early game. Once you secure Italy, build your economy for a little bit, then pick your next target. Once you establish yourself in Italy, the money tends to flow like wine.

Just remember, troops are exspensive in this mod. Navies are bankruptingly exspensive without a really good economy. Take it slow, the AI will on M/M.

I think Kart-Hadast is easy. You can already afford a strong army as well as sizable garrisons in Iberia. You also have the option of expanding in three fronts. Africa, Italy and Iberia.

Public Enemy Number 1. So true. I once had the British in RTW march all the way through Gaul to Italy use to attack Patavium.

Starting treasury is more a balancing issue I think, I mean can we know for sure how much money or wealth each faction had at that time?

you just need a few thing to remember when u play EB,

you basically have 2 options as every faction at the start of the game

1) you disband all your navies, most of your armies and if neccesary even destroy some buildings. then you turtle while building the neccesary barracks, and buildings that provide extra income (trade or farming) and also extra health (sewers are good to start with). Also appease big bad bullies if theyre near by gifting them map info or money. then in a few years once you have survived you will go to conquer.

or

2) you combine your troops into 1 or 2 punching forces that will take as many cities as fast as you can. dont care if you go into debt. you always use the sell into slavery option (extermination in vanilla) once you sack a city to get as much money as you can. and then leave as little garrison as possible behind while moving on to take the next city. You do this untill you have a positive income and are unable to safely take another city. most nations have an optimal blitzing path that allows you to take many cities within a few turns with minimal losses. provided ofcourse you use your spies and generals right.

For example, rome can take 4 cities within 2 years. Konion Hellenon can take crete, corinthos, thessalia and the small island next to athens within 2 years. pontus can take 2 cities in 2-3 turns etc etc.


remember that archers, slingers and javelin troops are your friends in these early engagements when taking cities. phalanx units are nice too. but if you want to absolutely murder the ai, make use of horse archers whenever you can.


its too bad that the tw BAI sux because otherwise EB wouldve been the perfect game. its still better than RTW2 tho...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Stranger

2) you combine your troops into 1 or 2 punching forces that will take as many cities as fast as you can. dont care if you go into debt. you always use the sell into slavery option (extermination in vanilla) once you sack a city to get as much money as you can. and then leave as little garrison as possible behind while moving on to take the next city. You do this untill you have a positive income and are unable to safely take another city. most nations have an optimal blitzing path that allows you to take many cities within a few turns with minimal losses. provided ofcourse you use your spies and generals right.

---

I would actually recommend not sacking any cities at the start, unless you're planning to abandon them afterwards. For most factions, it's better to just occupy the settlement, raze the pre-built government building (and barracks if they don't work for your faction), and try to develop the economy ASAP. Mabe build a tier 1 MIC for the most basic units. This is (somewhat ironically) particularly valid for Barbarian factions. Also, Pontos generals get a really bad trait for sacking places with the "homeland" resource.

Quote:

---

remember that archers, slingers and javelin troops are your friends in these early engagements when taking cities. phalanx units are nice too. but if you want to absolutely murder the ai, make use of horse archers whenever you can.

---

Definitely true; when storming enemy settlements, try to cause as many missile casualties as you possibly can, right at the start, by drawing out the enemy and shooting them to bits. 20% missile kills should be doable with some patience and good micro. When attacking settlements with tier 1 palisades, you can place javelin-equipped units directly in front of the walls. They will be able to cause horrendous casualties. This is important because assaults are a messy business and street fights are bugged, and you need as many men as possible to survive said battles.

ye pontus has to be careful what you sack.

i prefer to sack for 2 reasons, first you need the instant cash to buy mercs to replace fallen soldiers and to get into a positive cashflow to build some new buildings. and 2nd sacking cities makes them easier to rule early, you usually just need to leave 1 unit behind to occupy them without too much trouble. if you dont, then you will have to leave much more behind and this will slow down your initial blitz.

razing barracks and gov buildings is standard fare ofcourse. should always do it, whatever you do.

the first few settlements you conquer generally tend to be homeland provinces tho and not only pontids get them nasty traits from sacking them. It surely varies from faction to faction and on how many Mercs you plan to hire but as a general rule of thumb I'd advise against choosing option 3 for homeland provinces, they normally are not that hard to keep order in (earlygame) and sewers or the like normally lift the approval high enough to raise taxes, well or you just keep taxes low to get some population grouth.

Quote:

---

razing barracks and gov buildings is standard fare ofcourse. should always do it, whatever you do.

---

!this should be a pop up ingametip! It really is very usefull for getting a few coins in hand and slightly reducing the unrest

ive never really had any trouble with it. and its also not always true, for example as greeks i never got bad traits for sacking crete, which is a homeland province nonetheless.

ur both right that it does curb your early population growth, but this can easily be remedied by picking option 2 after a few conquests.

back

well most factions are poor because their citizens don´t pay their taxs and don´t fill up tax forms so the best way to get out of debt depending on wich faction you pick is increase your tax paying base by adding new territories to your original ones

don´t enslave or exterminate people that makes their productivity low i mean a slave as hardly any incentive to give his best except for a few lashes (only idiots kill off valuable property because they are lazy anyway ) so when acquiring new territories just share their population between your other towns (all cities with a general will get a share of that population ) plus that "sharing" of population will grant that new conquered region a new trade resource this tactic is particulary usefull and required with maks and epirotes since your army training centers will tend to run out of population on quite a few ocasions

i love the balkans a bit tricky at the start but let me inform you that all those mines more then make up for it and once you develop it (it will take you 2/5 years to kick out the epirotes and the kh if you are the maks and 20 years give or take to develop all those mines ) you can easily suport 6/7 full stack armies and a powerfull navy filled with triremes and quinquiremes

its the way you want to play i guess :/

i love to blitz, see how many cities i can take within the least amount of time. you cant do an effective blitz without enslaving/exterminating because it simply creates more problems in terms of population happiness and you need the cash it gives. currently im trying to finish every campaign within 50 years :P i think its possible for most.

if you set yourself up for a longer game, then i guess its inadvisible to use exterminate unless a city is really over its pop limit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Stranger

its the way you want to play i guess :/

if you set yourself up for a longer game, then i guess its inadvisible to use exterminate unless a city is really over its pop limit.

---

Assuming your treasury isn't empty, the way to deal with a large rebellious city without exterminating is to install a Type IV government and recruit a general to be a client ruler. Client rulers are expensive, but they are way, WAY better at dealing with unrest than your own family members. They cost a lot less than a 6+ unit garrison.

ye, thats pretty good, but again a mid to long term solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Stranger

ye, thats pretty good, but again a mid to long term solution.

---

i guess it all comes down to how much love you wanna take out of a relationship starting with a big fire that spread rapidilly is very dandy and all but it will burn out fast leaving ashes behind

i much prefer to plant the seeds that will feed me trough the winter