The BDS movement and the association of anti-Zionism and antisemitism

A bunch of my friends on Facebook keep posting this article by Charles Krauthammer, talking about how the American Studies Association's boycott of Israeli universities is bigotry and antisemitism.

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And don’t tell me this is merely about Zionism. The ruse is transparent. Israel is the world’s only Jewish state. To apply to the state of the Jews a double standard that you apply to none other, to judge one people in a way you judge no other, to single out that one people for condemnation and isolation — is to engage in a gross act of discrimination.

And discrimination against Jews has a name. It’s called anti-Semitism.

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And this is a very popular opinion among Jews, from the modern orthodox (as the hardcore orthodox are anti-Israel anyways, but for different reasons) all the way to the members of the reform movement, that if you happen to disagree with something that the Israeli government does in its treatment of the Palestinians, you apparently hate Jews. During Operation Pillar of Defense in November of 2012, when Israeli patriotism was running high on Facebook, with many people posting whenever another rocket struck Israeli territory (even if it landed in an empty field) I posted a status suggesting that maybe, just maybe, Israel was being a bit too heavy-handed, and it caused a storm, resulting in at least 3 people unfriending me and a number of very angry messages about how Im a traitor for even thinking that Israel could be wrong in any way shape or form. I ended up deleting the status because I didnt need the headache, but 1.5 years later I kind of feel that it was a cop-out on my part.

Anyhow, even more recently, Im being met with hostility for suggesting that part of the problem why the Palestinians are so angry is that they might not like it how the Israeli government keeps taking more and more of their land in the West Bank. I find it shocking that many pro-Israel advocates continually demand that the Palestinians just roll over and give up completely, as if they have no say in the matter, that they should be "good little Palestinians" and let the Israelis take whatever they want. Gods forbid that they try to fight back. Of course, I do not approve of their tactics, but desperate people do desperate things. I came to understand this through Battlestar Galactica, when the human resistance put a suicide bomber into a crowd of humans who were collaborating with the Cylons because they had no other way to fight back. Its the exact same thing here, any uniformed attempt to attack the IDF is swiftly put down as the IDF is much better trained and better equipped. So they shed their uniforms and are fighting and insurgency, the only real option for people facing overwhelming enemy forces. It has been this way for centuries, partisans would always be organized to harass larger enemy forces. Of course, if they were to only attack military targets it would give them much more legitimacy, but I understand why they do what they do. People backed into a corner will do anything to fight back.

Now, back on topic.

The opposition to the BDS movement is more of this idea that Israel can do no wrong. While I might personally partly disagree with the BDS movement, as I do not agree with taking out one's frustrations with the Israeli government on Israeli academics (really for more of the idea that all views should be brought to the table than anything else), they (the BDS movement) are entitled to their opinion just as those who oppose it are allowed theirs as well. But to call the BDS movement anti-Semitic? Ridiculous! The claim that they are treating Israel unfairly is a bogus one in my eyes. Every nation is different, you cannot compare one to another, as each has a myriad of problems and factors leading to those problems that must be approached differently.

Israel claims itself to be a democracy (though being a Jewish state goes against the tenets of a democracy anyways) and being one, its supporters should be welcoming any criticism that is brought up and not use the anti-Semitism excuse to sweep any criticism under the rug.

I apologize if this post rambled too much or was incoherent. Im quite tired right now.

While I do not think that Israel is engaged in ethic cleansing (at least not yet), the attitude of many Israelis, especially the more religious ones, seems to favor that.

I find it funny that the mantra of "never again" only seems to apply to other Jews...


And I absolutely agree that the US needs to stop giving so much money to them.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Anyhow, even more recently, Im being met with hostility for suggesting that part of the problem why the Palestinians are so angry is that they might not like it how the Israeli government keeps taking more and more of their land in the West Bank. I find it shocking that many pro-Israel advocates continually demand that the Palestinians just roll over and give up completely, as if they have no say in the matter, that they should be "good little Palestinians" and let the Israelis take whatever they want. Gods forbid that they try to fight back. Of course, I do not approve of their tactics, but desperate people do desperate things. I came to understand this through Battlestar Galactica, when the human resistance put a suicide bomber into a crowd of humans who were collaborating with the Cylons because they had no other way to fight back. Its the exact same thing here, any uniformed attempt to attack the IDF is swiftly put down as the IDF is much better trained and better equipped. So they shed their uniforms and are fighting and insurgency, the only real option for people facing overwhelming enemy forces. It has been this way for centuries, partisans would always be organized to harass larger enemy forces. Of course, if they were to only attack military targets it would give them much more legitimacy, but I understand why they do what they do. People backed into a corner will do anything to fight back.

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I've said a number of times that land grabbing was the most common cause of war in history, and that any sane assessment of the situation would conclude that the Palestinians have a iusta causa. The best anti arguments concentrate on the questionable means that the Palestinians use. The most insidious arguments deny the Palestinians an identity at all, thus rendering void the question of land grabs (you can't steal land from a people that don't exist). This category of argument usually argues that the "Palestinians" belong to a state that already exists outside the combined Israel-Palestine borders, usually Jordan, thus making them aliens who don't belong in the territory being disputed.

Simply put, it's colonization with extermination of the subject population.
The method is outside the bounds of international law, and often, Israeli law.

One other way to look at it is: the process is no different then what has gone on since humans formed societies; get over it.

Witnessing it is distasteful; recognizing that it is illegal is troubling; but really there is not much to be done about it.

Wait, can we define "extermination"? I have yet to see any real evidence that Israel is systematically murdering the Palestinians, just widespread oppression. I would compare it to post Kristallnacht, pre-ww2 Germany.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Wait, can we define "extermination"? I have yet to see any real evidence that Israel is systematically murdering the Palestinians, just widespread oppression. I would compare it to pre-Kristallnacht Germany.

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It reminds me more of 1984 and the Communist regimes that inspired the novel. The definition of a conformist people and the contrary definition of an unpeople who don't fit the first definition who are outlawed from normal society and ghettoised into areas away from the proper people. There is no need to argue hatred against them if you can argue against their existence.

Good point. As mentioned before, I find it very troubling that any criticism from within the Jewish community about the subject of the Palestinians is silenced. Blind nationalism at its worst.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Wait, can we define "extermination"? I have yet to see any real evidence that Israel is systematically murdering the Palestinians, just widespread oppression. I would compare it to post Kristallnacht, pre-ww2 Germany.

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I wouldn't. The Kristallnacht was just the second event that showed the brutality of the regime, they had certainly let their nature known by the night of the long knives. If you want to argue that the kristallnacht showed a greater likelihood of genocide than the night of the long knives, well, there's a strong argument to be made that several people(even, or should I say especially, among displaced jews) was of the opinion that the action was undertaken to remove them from power/germany and put them to different use, but not specifically to kill them all.

Anyway, the old "Israel is held to a different standard"-argument is so old and tired it's getting absurd. It is, of course, utterly false. Israel isn't held to a different standard than, say, the UK or the US. Have we forgotten how apeshit we went back in the good ol' days of W's sabre rattling already? There is certainly a hefty dose of jew-hate in this world, but a call for academic boycott certainly does not fit that category.

And while we're on the subject of academic boycotts... If we make the assumption that intellectuals and artists have an actual impact on both society and politics, directly or indirectly, it is certainly a kind of boycott I would support, far and above the silly jaffa-boycotts others want. The reasoning is that Joe Israel wouldn't feel any impact, and it would force through a change. Now, whether academia have an actual impact on society is of course another discussion....

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Good point. As mentioned before, I find it very troubling that any criticism from within the Jewish community about the subject of the Palestinians is silenced. Blind nationalism at its worst.

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It's the siege mentality IMO. I have little doubt that many people believe Israel will disappear and all jews will be killed RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT if any weakness is shown, as the threat to the land is simply apocalyptic. This can easily lead to pretty vile reprisals against those in the "us-group" who do not share the same view.

By the way.... What would this groups abbreviation be if they also decided to be marxists?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

It's the siege mentality IMO. I have little doubt that many people believe Israel will disappear and all jews will be killed RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT if any weakness is shown, as the threat to the land is simply apocalyptic. This can easily lead to pretty vile reprisals against those in the "us-group" who do not share the same view.

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I think the Israelis have their right to this mentality. What I find hard to understand is why the US seem to put Israeli interests above their own to the extent that they do. I have the same issue with UK Muslims who show a similar patriotism to another country.

It'll end up as another round of "the dog chasing it's own tail."

The Academic Left are largely of the opinion that Israel stole most of the land it claims from the Palestinians, that they stole the land despite the UN suggesting different borders (many of them believe that the UN had no right to establish a Jewish state/carve up Palestine in the first place). The view the Israeli occupation of Gaza, the West Bank, and anything beyond the 1947 borders as illegal. They view Israeli treatment of the Palestinians as being somewhere on a scale between illegal and immoral on one end down to evil/just as bad as the Nazis on the other. Academics boycotting Israel -- at least as individuals -- is a decades old thing. I knew folks who wouldn't submit a paper idea for a conference in Israel just on that basis.

All of this, however, is irrelevant. Absent a nation state willing to pay the blood price to eradicate them, they are not moving. They will not give the Palestinians anything resembling the "right of return" compensation they seek. They will not allow Palestinians self-rule while there is anything resembling a credible threat from that state or its adherents. All of this boycotting and worrying about is it anti-Semitism or not is rather moot.

I do not believe that Israel has ever been in real danger of being wiped off the map since the Yom Kippur war.

Of course zionists will continually say how Israel is on the brink of destruction 24/7, even though when was the last time a nation went under from a few random rocket strikes?

An academic boycott is sort of pointless. Sure, it makes a statement but its effect on the situation is negligible.
Israel is there to stay; what becomes of the Palestinians is vague at best.
Just don't cry when someone gets fed up with the BS and blows themselves up at your convocation.

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Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

Sure, it makes a statement but its effect on the situation is negligible.

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True, but it would also have zero effect on the average Israeli. It can have two possible effects:

1. Moderate Israeli academics/artist who have some sympathi for the palestinians, but have kept it to themselves, may feel the need to voice their opposition to current Israeli policy in public.
2. The hawks gain another propaganda point, further radicalizing the Israeli loonie-fringe.

It would be effective if it causes more of 1 than of 2, but I fear it's the opposite.

imho academic boycotts are just as idiotic as olympic boycotts. Science like sports should be above politics.

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Originally Posted by rvg

imho academic boycotts are just as idiotic as olympic boycotts. Science like sports should be above politics.

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Academics and athletes should not be free to speak their mind?

All hail freedom!!!!!11111

(I'm not going to bother pointing out how removing politics from science is a logical impossibility)

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Academics and athletes should not be free to speak their mind?

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Did I say that?

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Originally Posted by rvg

Did I say that?

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How can you be "above politics" and engage yourself in politics at the same time...?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

How can you be "above politics" and engage yourself in politics at the same time...?

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How is quantum physics related to politics?

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Originally Posted by rvg

How is quantum physics related to politics?

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Do you honestly believe it's the hard science who's pushing for a boycott? Ever met a mathematician capable of withstanding the direct sunlight for the amount of time(ie. over 10 minutes) needed for a rally/demonstration?

Still: the creationism/science debate is highly political and only concerns the hard sciences.

Not to mention that the organization of quantum physics education and research remains highly political.

What is this BDSMovement you talk about?

When you use an acronym, please explain it, if it isn't common knowledge (and since I never heard about that one, it probably isnt).

ON TOPIC: Israel is just a vile and horrible nation. They deserve much worse than what they get.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

What is this BDSMovement you talk about?

When you use an acronym, please explain it, if it isn't common knowledge (and since I never heard about that one, it probably isnt).

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The boycott movement against Israel is pretty damn common knowledge. Uneducated Swedes should refer to google when he finds his Swedishness has got the better of him ~;)

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

True, but it would also have zero effect on the average Israeli. It can have two possible effects:

1. Moderate Israeli academics/artist who have some sympathi for the palestinians, but have kept it to themselves, may feel the need to voice their opposition to current Israeli policy in public.
2. The hawks gain another propaganda point, further radicalizing the Israeli loonie-fringe.

It would be effective if it causes more of 1 than of 2, but I fear it's the opposite.

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I agree.
If it mobilizes academia to actually object and articulate then it works; however to articulate objections to the "Whole Land " project in Israel is in some sectors equivalent to treason.
The issue is extremely polarized; bringing it to a head might be dangerous. I just don't think there is the "will" in Israel to face the issue.

I don't know that movement. But how is the fixation in Israel not anti-semitism, do the same people who get all worked up about Israel get worked up about other problematic parts of the world, nope, they don't. If you do a process of elimination of all factors, how can you not come to the conclusion that it's absolutily antisemitism, just a less obvious one because they can now blame a state. What else could make Israel so special for them?

'And don’t tell me this is merely about Zionism. The ruse is transparent. Israel is the world’s only Jewish state. To apply to the state of the Jews a double standard that you apply to none other, to judge one people in a way you judge no other, to single out that one people for condemnation and isolation — is to engage in a gross act of discrimination.

And discrimination against Jews has a name. It’s called anti-Semitism.'

I agree with him. Jews should still watch their back in ffing 2014 .The EU couldn't wait to give the muslim brotherhood free money, and you know what they stand for. The EU gives free money to the Hamas-government, and you know what they stand for.

Israel got one big boa-constrictor around it's neck, it just isn't allowed that they got their own hub there.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Still: the creationism/science debate is highly political and only concerns the hard sciences.

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There's no debate. There's nothing to debate.

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Not to mention that the organization of quantum physics education and research remains highly political.

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Que?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I don't know that movement. But how is the fixation in Israel not anti-semitism, do the same people who get all worked up about Israel get worked up about other problematic parts of the world, nope, they don't. If you do a process of elimination of all factors, how can you not come to the conclusion that it's absolutily antisemitism, just a less obvious one because they can now blame a state. What else could make Israel so special for them?

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The left loves an underdog and supported Israel when they were one.
Any states that are western or westernish are hold to a higher standard.
Any democracy is hold to a higher standard.
Keeping a situation similar for a very long time will create a larger but more low burning activivists. If you burnt out on the cause and it's still there 10 years later, you can still join it, instead of finding a new cause.

So give me a western -ish democracy that you can easily conjure up as an active bully. Israeli tanks vs stone throwing Palestinian children is a very biased picture, but it isn't wrong. South Africa was pariah in many countries during the apartheid.

Let me put it this way. The US gets plenty of blame by Europeans and this shift happened decades (the Vietnam war) after the US got the become the global and cultural superpower it is today. Is this because of rascism?
Or is it because the US is dominating and at the same time doesn't fullfill some high horses ideals that's placed upon them?

Get noted. Appear to be able to fullfill some ideals. Fail at those ideals. Enjoy the rage.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I don't know that movement. But how is the fixation in Israel not anti-semitism, do the same people who get all worked up about Israel get worked up about other problematic parts of the world, nope, they don't.

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How do you know all these things? Can you show me your data about people who dislike Israel and what else they get worked up over or are you just pulling these "facts" out of your body cavities?

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Originally Posted by Husar

How do you know all these things? Can you show me your data about people who dislike Israel and what else they get worked up over or are you just pulling these "facts" out of your body cavities?

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Well the fact is simply that MSN and leftist self-congratulaters don't give a crap when it's not Israel. Absolute silence. When it's Israel though there isn't enough chocolate in the world to counter their hormonal spikes.

'Any states that are western or westernish are hold to a higher standard.'

That could at least be an explanation, but I am not buying it. Antisemitism is very much alive in Europe but it found a safer output to channel it.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well the fact is simply that MSN and leftist self-congratulaters don't give a crap when it's not Israel. Absolute silence. When it's Israel though there isn't enough chocolate in the world to counter their hormonal spikes.

'Any states that are western or westernish are hold to a higher standard.'

That could at least be an explanation, but I am not buying it. Antisemitism is very much alive in Europe but it found a safer output to channel it.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWUJvTyl-m4

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"2 x 3 equals 4
Widdewiddewitt*, add 3 and you get 9!
I'm making my world
Widdewidde just the way I like it .... "

Fits the attitude of the antagonists in these conflicts as well, everybody has an excuse not to give an inch and for some not giving an inch means taking inches every day. I've quite frankly stopped caring for the most part. I'm sure there are some reasonable people but as usual they get drowned out by the shouting of the unreasonables, whatever the ratio between the groups may be.

I'm not sure what boycotting universities is supposed to achieve but being opposed to Israel's politics is not necessarily anti-semitism either way. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Husar

I'm not sure what boycotting universities is supposed to achieve but being opposed to Israel's politics is not necessarily anti-semitism either way. :shrug:

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But only caring about Israel makes it very likely.

My personal theory that I can't back up and you are allowed to mock me. I think that the real reason is that Israel has succes, it has universities that rank among the best in the world, innovative industry, compatitive economy. That's got to be a bit hard to explain when you are ideologically infused with the idea, or rather truth that all cultures are equal. The palestianes get more aid than any 'country' in the world and it's a mess. So, lefties simply can't get to terms with being wrong.

Fire away