At what level does corruption make a state, community or other polity dysfunctional?

The Ukraine thread has reminded me of a theme that, for decades now, I have been considering more and more important in the definition of political "success" for a community -- the minimization of corruption.

I would be interested in hearing more thoughts on this, especially (since it will never be eradicated) as to when it ceases to be a problem and becomes THE problem.

Thoughts?

Corruption is the erosion of social norms that place value on ideals which positions are supposed to uphold or promote.

Campaign finance has replaced previous social norms and values and replaced it with free market ideals which only serve to promote a market in government itself. Is it any wonder that politicians are up for sale?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I'd be careful trying to define corruption anyway. The way campaign finance works in America might be more subtle than systemic low level bribery, but it is just as destructive.

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I'd rather you expanded on your definition and the example, as time permits. Your point of view often differs from mine, so it is more valuable for learning.

An institution will always take on the characteristics of the society in which it is embedded.

It's why, for example, Mexico is constantly forming new agencies and task forces associated with combating the cartels: the old ones have to be dismantled due to utter corruption.

So don't kid yourself too much about America - this is us.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The Ukraine thread has reminded me of a theme that, for decades now, I have been considering more and more important in the definition of political "success" for a community -- the minimization of corruption.

I would be interested in hearing more thoughts on this, especially (since it will never be eradicated) as to when it ceases to be a problem and becomes THE problem.

Thoughts?

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Truely dysfunctional? When the corruption prevents the intended tasks to be critically underfunded or done at all. The hospital getting delayed, more expensive and having a crack or two in the wall doesn't hurt as much as the building never getting done, or being so unsafe that you have to abandon it within a few years.

You can see damage much earlier than that though.

It's quite dysfynctional when you start to encounter it on a personal level and you're an average person. How many here has been bribed or been bribed? How many here expects it regulary?

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Truely dysfunctional? When the corruption prevents the intended tasks to be critically underfunded or done at all. The hospital getting delayed, more expensive and having a crack or two in the wall doesn't hurt as much as the building never getting done, or being so unsafe that you have to abandon it within a few years.

You can see damage much earlier than that though.

It's quite dysfynctional when you start to encounter it on a personal level and you're an average person. How many here has been bribed or been bribed? How many here expects it regulary?

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Interesting. Might serve as a good point of demarcation. GC's, while clear on an ethical/philosophical level, speaks more to the personal rather than the societal.

Another approach would be to define a "Public Interest"; dysfunction could be a measure of the sacrifice of that interest in pursuit of private "Golden Calves".
Perhaps not necessarily corrupt but leaning toward "Self-Interest" at the expense of the "Public Interest"
This is further complicated by the observation that this split may be well within the rules/regime of the society in question ... does our definition of corruption require that transfers from public to private take place outside of the law, or can we fudge the boundaries to include legal transfers that are purely self-serving for those in a position of authority or trust; again where would those boundaries occur.
Fascinating stuff :)

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Originally Posted by Ironside

It's quite dysfynctional when you start to encounter it on a personal level and you're an average person. How many here has been bribed or been bribed? How many here expects it regulary?

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Alternatively, define it as what you expect to happen when you approach a low level government official and offer a bribe. If you get an advantage, the polity is dysfunctional. If you get into trouble, the polity is functional. In that way, the film Lincoln shows a US that's on its way to functionality, as open cash bribes were frowned on by then. Job offers on the other hand...

Thinking about the subject, in some cases, a little bit of cronyism/corruption can be beneficial.

I put it this way, a lot of people end up being groomed by their parents to follow in a similar path, this means they have a lot of experience in the field/area, and perhaps have contacts and influence someone completely from the outside might have.

So lets say Person A works at your company. He is a hardworker, worked there a long time, he is loyal and you get on with him. Whilst casually talking over a few years, you learn that the son has a deep interest in the same line of work as his father, he visited for his school's work experience, going through University and coming away with a good degree. You have a job opportunity coming up for an apprentice position, you let the father know. In the end, it boils down to three candidates, all pretty equal, except one of them is this fathers son and the other two are complete outsiders. Who would you think would be best for the company?

its like the differ between porn and fine art yell know it when ye see it.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Alternatively, define it as what you expect to happen when you approach a low level government official and offer a bribe. If you get an advantage, the polity is dysfunctional. If you get into trouble, the polity is functional. In that way, the film Lincoln shows a US that's on its way to functionality, as open cash bribes were frowned on by then. Job offers on the other hand...

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How about complimentary tickets, "speakers" fees, etc.? "With great power" in mind, I'd be shocked to hear of any government at any level that was devoid of "gifts" of some nature. IMO that is not what people mean when they say corruption. Like Tiaexz says, a little bit can be beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

An institution will always take on the characteristics of the society in which it is embedded.

It's why, for example, Mexico is constantly forming new agencies and task forces associated with combating the cartels: the old ones have to be dismantled due to utter corruption.

So don't kid yourself too much about America - this is us.

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This is why I constantly stress in here about problems within American politics being a weakness of civic duty and values. The more you tacitly accept the status quo, the more you encourage for the situation to deteriorate. This isn't some hippy bull**** slogan. Cynicism in moderation is healthy, but the more we indulge ourselves with it, the more of a self fulfilling prophecy it becomes.

(Just to clarify I'm not really directing this at you personally Monty, just piggybacking on your statement)

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

Thinking about the subject, in some cases, a little bit of cronyism/corruption can be beneficial.

I put it this way, a lot of people end up being groomed by their parents to follow in a similar path, this means they have a lot of experience in the field/area, and perhaps have contacts and influence someone completely from the outside might have.

So lets say Person A works at your company. He is a hardworker, worked there a long time, he is loyal and you get on with him. Whilst casually talking over a few years, you learn that the son has a deep interest in the same line of work as his father, he visited for his school's work experience, going through University and coming away with a good degree. You have a job opportunity coming up for an apprentice position, you let the father know. In the end, it boils down to three candidates, all pretty equal, except one of them is this fathers son and the other two are complete outsiders. Who would you think would be best for the company?

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In the situation you have given, this is not cronyism/corruption. From the companies perspective, you have three candidates that look equal on paper, but one of them has a trusted individual vouching for them. Companies must take risks on anybody they hire in the sense that they hope the applicant carries certain personality traits, hence why in person interviews occur in the first place. Having a father or friend in the company vouch is better than any 20 minute interview. Sure the relative/friend is biased, but ideally that "crony" is already recognized as the type of person the company looks for on the basis that he/she works there and naturally would raise/congregate around workers of similar character.

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Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

How about complimentary tickets, "speakers" fees, etc.? "With great power" in mind, I'd be shocked to hear of any government at any level that was devoid of "gifts" of some nature. IMO that is not what people mean when they say corruption. Like Tiaexz says, a little bit can be beneficial.

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Obviously, there will never be a government devoid of corruption. No point in letting the perfect become the enemy of the good. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that subverting republican ideals is anything but bad for a representative government.

I would say a good indicator of dysfunctional levels of corruption is when "the common man" knows of corruption which isn't prosecuted or punished.

well in Iran and some other countries (can Example Turkey & Iraq) Corruption is in the Top at its Peaks but still people dont do anything or dont have the MOOD to do something ......or its better say CANT do anything.
Ukraine is in a better situation, the little corruption , they prevent it from its birth!!

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Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

Ukraine is in a better situation, the little corruption , they prevent it from its birth!!

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Um.....

Corruption is widespread at all levels of Ukrainian society.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I would say a good indicator of dysfunctional levels of corruption is when "the common man" knows of corruption which isn't prosecuted or punished.

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Nice point