The Economy in Attila Total War - Questions, Ideas and Research

I played now a decent amount, almost entirely on strategic map and I would like to open up a thread about the economic aspect of the ATW. All in all it doesn't seem overly complex but there are some interesting aspects and angles worthy to explore. The vast differences in the starting positions, the various events and the horde mechanic challenge the player in the economic sphere in various ways.

Personally I would advise a short and peaceful campaign with the Sassanid Empire to explore the economy, taking a lot of time to get to known the regions with their ressources and fertility as well as the specific buildings. Especially the fertility in combination with the new local penalty with a negative local food shortage are something to consider in depth. For example as even a slight lack of food on the provincial level causes a -25% reduction in wealth but a very severe one doesn't increase it further provinces with very low fertility can make for deep (military) specialization. On the other hand very high fertility (4-5) can produce a surprising amount of food production or agricultural wealth, increasing the Return on Investment greatly and making those building slots very attractive and imposing thus high trade-offs for military or civil buildings.

The ROI is subject to many modifiers and the fog of war but it is remarkable how big of an impact corruption makes for factions like the ERE or especially the WRE. In the latter case 80% on all but easy with some trade pacts completely alters for example the return of trade ressource buildings vs the rest as wealth generated by trade isn't subject to taxation of corruption. On the other hand a faction like the Geats a direct increase in provincial or regional wealth has a far higher impact on the bottom line then an increase in wood production as trade partners are quite hard to get, corruption is pretty much zero and public order rather easy to protect.

Fertility changes though as the game progresses. The turn 20 event drops nearly everything one level down the fertility scale. Also, some factions (both Roman Empires) do not have the luxury of making anything but essentials. Hordes on the other hand, once they settle, can definitely focus on a strong econ from the get go. Especially if you racked up a large amount of cash raiding and pillaging before then.

Yes, it is part of the events I mentioned and very important for players which want to keep some regions just in food surplus. Personally trade was highly important in my hard ERE campaign with some easy pickings like the gems in souther Palaestina. At 24*x they greatly boosted, among other ressources, said income sources. The ERE has obviously the fascinating aspect of the 5% interest on your liquid capital.

With the ERE on hard I was likely lucky with quick victories in the West, not much horde activity, not too much distruction in Lybia, a stalemate in Osroene as well as in Egypt. The lack of a decent quanity of good infantry for the eastern and southern opponents meant that I had economy of force on my side in the siege battles. All in all I could rather quickly build up my economy.

On the other hand factions like the Franks on hard seem to be able to get a large return on investment on their single home region while getting away with minimal upkeep. Nobody made any attempt to attack me, enabling me to build up peacefully a large chest for my decisive invasion of the WRE...

Regarding fertility drops: when you're trying to balance food and build the according structures simply ignore the "additional" food units from fertility. These will drop down as the events unfold. The only thing you can really count on is the base food production value of the building.

I'm roughly 120ish turns into my Saxon campaign; I think I'm at about 430AD give or take a year. The campaign has experienced two climate-change fertility drops thus far (which has dropped home-province Frisia to Meagre by now, after having started at Average). How many climate drops are there; can I expect more of these?

One side note; Food from the Fishing Jetty and Granary lines aren't affected by the climate change drops (which makes sense). These have helped me a good bit in maintaining food surplus (albeit relatively small ones) in provinces with Meagre fertility.

Btw...is this climate thing borne out historically? I'm well aware that the medieval period, on through the 17th century, saw a "Little Ice Age" of colder temps than either ancient or modern times. But I don't remember reading anything about this trend first becoming noticeable as early as the 5th century. In fact, I've read about recent archaeology and research indicating that Late Roman agriculture, rather contrary to the popular impression of imperial decay, enjoyed a substantial boom during this period...and not just in the African breadbasket. Of the myriad factors contributing the incursions which eventually led to WRE collapse, I don't recall encountering "environmentally-induced famine" as one of them.

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Originally Posted by Slaists

Regarding fertility drops: when you're trying to balance food and build the according structures simply ignore the "additional" food units from fertility. These will drop down as the events unfold. The only thing you can really count on is the base food production value of the building.

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Ignoring is rather strong, taking into account the fertility drop is perhaps better as one earns a considerable amount through additional wealth while it lasts. An adjusted 200 extra income for 18 turns on top of your base one is nothing to be sneezed at.

Actually I did some calculating about the ERE economy and one of the best ROI can be obtained by (T2) agricultural buildings in high fertility provinces which eliminate a (smallish) food deficit. Doing so with a field (T1) and a sheep flock (T2) in the Insulae Orientalis beats even the T1 gemstone building in Aila despite the rampant corruption of almost 50%.

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Originally Posted by Bramborough

I'm roughly 120ish turns into my Saxon campaign; I think I'm at about 430AD give or take a year. The campaign has experienced two climate-change fertility drops thus far (which has dropped home-province Frisia to Meagre by now, after having started at Average). How many climate drops are there; can I expect more of these?

One side note; Food from the Fishing Jetty and Granary lines aren't affected by the climate change drops (which makes sense). These have helped me a good bit in maintaining food surplus (albeit relatively small ones) in provinces with Meagre fertility.

Btw...is this climate thing borne out historically? I'm well aware that the medieval period, on through the 17th century, saw a "Little Ice Age" of colder temps than either ancient or modern times. But I don't remember reading anything about this trend first becoming noticeable as early as the 5th century. In fact, I've read about recent archaeology and research indicating that Late Roman agriculture, rather contrary to the popular impression of imperial decay, enjoyed a substantial boom during this period...and not just in the African breadbasket. Of the myriad factors contributing the incursions which eventually led to WRE collapse, I don't recall encountering "environmentally-induced famine" as one of them.

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This climate drop is born out of the "history" from the "Game of Thrones"... "Winter is coming...".

Historically, there arguably was a cold spell that lasted 2 years, but that was in mid 500s, not in the time depicted in the game.

Later, in the viking age, exactly the opposite was what triggered viking raids: warmer weather and high fertility in Scandinavia causing folks to have many children (sons) who were landless because eldest sons inherited all. Guess what the younger ones resigned to do...

Climate wise there was a long (about 100 years long) cold spell around the XVI century (called the mini-ice age) when the Baltic used to freeze over. Actually, there were more, I think 3 in total starting from the XVI until the XIX. But, anyway, that is much later than the period depicted in the game.

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Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens

Ignoring is rather strong, taking into account the fertility drop is perhaps better as one earns a considerable amount through additional wealth while it lasts. An adjusted 200 extra income for 18 turns on top of your base one is nothing to be sneezed at.

Actually I did some calculating about the ERE economy and one of the best ROI can be obtained by (T2) agricultural buildings in high fertility provinces which eliminate a (smallish) food deficit. Doing so with a field (T1) and a sheep flock (T2) in the Insulae Orientalis beats even the T1 gemstone building in Aila despite the rampant corruption of almost 50%.

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I think, I had smaller nations in mind: one region minors like the Vikings. I have not tried the big ones yet. Probably, for WRE and ERE considerations.

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Originally Posted by Bramborough

One side note; Food from the Fishing Jetty and Granary lines aren't affected by the climate change drops (which makes sense). These have helped me a good bit in maintaining food surplus (albeit relatively small ones) in provinces with Meagre fertility.
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The camel farms, windcatcher and fishing jetty lines are off my head Eastern options for the same problems. Overlooked those at the start.

Slaist already injected a good deal of what I was going to say. Overall people seem to have come up with enough causes to collapse the Roman Empire ten times over...

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Originally Posted by Bramborough

I'm roughly 120ish turns into my Saxon campaign; I think I'm at about 430AD give or take a year. The campaign has experienced two climate-change fertility drops thus far (which has dropped home-province Frisia to Meagre by now, after having started at Average). How many climate drops are there; can I expect more of these?

One side note; Food from the Fishing Jetty and Granary lines aren't affected by the climate change drops (which makes sense). These have helped me a good bit in maintaining food surplus (albeit relatively small ones) in provinces with Meagre fertility.

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Playing as the Geats, I had a 3rd climate change event between turns 141 & 153 (based on my save games). So all regions of base fertility 3 or fewer dropped to "infertile". They don't drop down any lower than that, even when negative. My Scandva province is still a worthwhile one, though I had to add a goat barns (or whatever they are called) and make sure I had the non-farm improvements in my city province that produce food (the sanitation one and the Trade Depot).

That 3rd climate event leaves an infertile sweep across the north: all of Britain, Germany, Scandinavia and Sarmatia. Belgum/France has +4 base fertility so it is not so badly hit. I can see eastern Spain is also an infertile area but not sure about the rest of the southern part of the map - I haven't explored all of it yet.

Yep, I just hit that 3rd climate change. And I think the drops are related to the chapter milestones, all of which (so far) are defined by a "survive until XXX date" requirement. I guess there could be more coming, but at this point rather irrelevant to me, since the vast majority of my territory is already infertile.

The good news is that infertility isn't a disaster. The non-fertility-dependent food buildings keep my head above water. One other thing I noticed for the barbarian build line. Farms offer by far the largest fertility +food modifier, and therefore produce the most food even at Poor fertility. Goatherds, however, provide the largest base amount of food, making them slightly more productive at Meagre, and substantially so at Infertile. They also provide more income than farms. So for northern factions who aren't planning to migrate south, conversion from farms to goats at the Meagre level seems the way to go.

A climate-change Saxon tidbit (not related to economy): In the Army skill tree, there is a trait called Champions of the North, which reduces snow attrition by 50%, and at the 2nd level, makes the army entirely snow-immune. This becomes huge as the climate gets colder, because increasingly larger areas of the northern map remain snow-covered during what is purportedly Spring. I don't know if other such factions such as Franks or the pre-Vikings have this (it would make sense if they did).

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Originally Posted by Bramborough

Yep, I just hit that 3rd climate change. And I think the drops are related to the chapter milestones, all of which (so far) are defined by a "survive until XXX date" requirement. I guess there could be more coming, but at this point rather irrelevant to me, since the vast majority of my territory is already infertile.

The good news is that infertility isn't a disaster. The non-fertility-dependent food buildings keep my head above water. One other thing I noticed for the barbarian build line. Farms offer by far the largest fertility +food modifier, and therefore produce the most food even at Poor fertility. Goatherds, however, provide the largest base amount of food, making them slightly more productive at Meagre, and substantially so at Infertile. They also provide more income than farms. So for northern factions who aren't planning to migrate south, conversion from farms to goats at the Meagre level seems the way to go.
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So far I didn't hit fertility drop number 3 as I started a new campaign. My ERE one has become a bit too easy as I hit a budget surplus of 50000 pretty early and specific interest compounding made (obviously) an ever bigger impact. With such a financial strenght comes military might with many stacks which allow for quick and easy victories.

I'm having a blast with my peaceful hard Geat campaign in which I'm colonizing what others raze, enabled in part by my web of alliances. Didn't fight a single battle so far with all my settlements protected by defensive or military allies and lots of very cheap units. The gems of Germano-Sarmantia were grapped by me after a couple of turns. My fleet and expensive units were cut in turn 1 after getting trade agreements with my Nordic neighbours which gave me enough of a surplus to finance the first colonia.

Fishing jetties are a blessing for all those coastal settlements in times like those. With few building slots and the two drops in my faction area I'm certainly going for non-farm food buildings and those farms with the highest base. Maybe I should import camels from the Sassanids... :book2: