Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

And, following a delay, will apparently move the US Embassy there as well. Source

The two announcements are expected to be made tomorrow in Washington, DC.

While there is a certain rational quality to this -- whether we like/approve/agree or not that is where the Israeli government is located -- this latest deft handling of things by The Donald is likely to cause many to be upset -- and not just @Idaho.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-muslim-world
https://twitter.com/KhaledAbuToameh/...00320147791872

Hamas will have a day of rage, Fatah will sever relations with the United States, Turkey will sever relations with Israel...

Quote:

---

While there is a certain rational quality to this -- whether we like/approve/agree or not that is where the Israeli government is located

---

Well, as long as you kiss goodbye to any hopes of a non-violent solution to the Jewish/Palestinian problem... I mean, personally I didn't think there was any hope, but you don't have to accelerate the timetable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Montmorency

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-muslim-world
https://twitter.com/KhaledAbuToameh/...&ICID=ref_fark

Hamas will have a day of rage, Fatah will sever relations with the United States, Turkey will sever relations with Israel...



Well, as long as you kiss goodbye to any hopes of a non-violent solution to the Jewish/Palestinian problem... I mean, personally I didn't think there was any hope, but you don't have to accelerate the timetable.

---

A 'steely-eyed realpolitik pragmatist' might suggest that doing this could well ignite a huge Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order to give Israel a chance to smash opposition and reorganize things more to their liking at exactly the moment when Islamist Extremist forces are at something of a low ebb following the setbacks experienced by ISIS/ISIL/DASH.

If anybody thinks anybody in the Trump administration is both that cold-blooded AND that organized, let me know. But I will ask for proof.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

A 'steely-eyed realpolitik pragmatist' might suggest that doing this could well ignite a huge Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order to give Israel a chance to smash opposition and reorganize things more to their liking at exactly the moment when Islamist Extremist forces are at something of a low ebb following the setbacks experienced by ISIS/ISIL/DASH.

If anybody thinks anybody in the Trump administration is both that cold-blooded AND that organized, let me know. But I will ask for proof.

---

They might just want a big noise in the corner to occupy the news cycle.

(And it's not like ISIS was ever preventing Israel from cleansing the West Bank. Israel's neighbors are probably its main concern.)

Not a very good idea, embassy is going to be the most wanted target. Arab states are always going to be pissed of just because Israel exists but no need to REALLY force them to be angry, it's begging for trouble and that's dumb.

There could be a number of reasons for this; an attempt to make an expected uptick in violence occur at a time of Trump's choosing while america and the israelis are prepared to deal with it, a diplomatic insult in the hopes of alienating the US allies likely to become entangled in the potential Qatar crisis war.

Hell, considering trump's dedication to psychological warfare this could be a provocation designed to enrage someone in the region to make a mistake and give the US an excuse to put the screws on or kick down the door.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

A 'steely-eyed realpolitik pragmatist' might suggest that doing this could well ignite a huge Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order to give Israel a chance to smash opposition and reorganize things more to their liking at exactly the moment when Islamist Extremist forces are at something of a low ebb following the setbacks experienced by ISIS/ISIL/DASH.

If anybody thinks anybody in the Trump administration is both that cold-blooded AND that organized, let me know. But I will ask for proof.

---

If we were to consider this a possibility, could such a thing be a suggestion of the israelis themselves?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

A 'steely-eyed realpolitik pragmatist' might suggest that doing this could well ignite a huge Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order to give Israel a chance to smash opposition and reorganize things more to their liking at exactly the moment when Islamist Extremist forces are at something of a low ebb following the setbacks experienced by ISIS/ISIL/DASH.

If anybody thinks anybody in the Trump administration is both that cold-blooded AND that organized, let me know. But I will ask for proof.

---

If Russia had this level of influence and Putin had done this I'd see it as a cold-blooded plan to get conflicts nice and far away to get all the nutters slaughtered along way from one's own shores.

Trump probably was just informed he "had" to sign the 6 month waiver... and then of course instantly refused to do so. To "Trump" - "to behave like a 3 year old".

~:smoking:

Well Trump was elected to "shake things up"; this will do that.
It will be interesting to see how America's friends, enemies and frienemies react.
Apparently anyone consulted warned against it; many not consulted but aware of the idea warned against it; thus the U.S.A. gives it clearest expression of the value of outside advice.
"Oh but it is just all Trump!"; bs, this has been the wet dream of some sections of Washington for a very long time.
It could well lead to clarity; what are the Palestinians and their supporters really prepared to do?

My vote is for a creative solution: ask China to hold Palestine as a Protectorate :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greyblades

There could be a number of reasons for this; an attempt to make an expected uptick in violence occur at a time of Trump's choosing while america and the israelis are prepared to deal with it, a diplomatic insult in the hopes of alienating the US allies likely to become entangled in the potential Qatar crisis war.

Hell, considering trump's dedication to psychological warfare this could be a provocation designed to enrage someone in the region to make a mistake and give the US an excuse to put the screws on or kick down the door.



If we were to consider this a possibility, could such a thing be a suggestion of the israelis themselves?

---

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...5/4dchesss.JPG


Jesus Christ man, I was the first to defend Trump, when others considered his elementary vocabulary as a proof of stupidity.

I thought and still believe that it was just a clever way to appeal to the least educated, but your imagination has gone to the other extreme.

None will get upset over the Palestinians, apart from the Palestinians themselves, because none really cares about them. It's not a diplomatic move, but only a nice gesture towards Bibi.

None will get upset about the Palestinians, seriously? The Palestinians have been a proxy in a media-war all the time and will remain that. What will happen: massive outrage from western bored rich kids, lots of seemingly spontanious protests in the middle-east (they don't exist) and lots of pallywood. Why ask for that. I like Trump but this is dumb

Let's just remember that Hillary is the hawk who was about to get people killed.

This will only bring about Armageddon and we all know that Israel will slaughter all the unbelievers from the north, so there is nothing to worry about.

Quote:

---

Christ man, I was the first to defend Trump, when others considered his elementary vocabulary as a proof of stupidity.

I thought and still believe that it was just a clever way to appeal to the least educated, but your imagination has gone to the other extreme.

None will get upset over the Palestinians, apart from the Palestinians themselves, because none really cares about them. It's not a diplomatic move, but only a nice gesture towards Bibi.

---

The EU chorus is allready wetting itself over the possibility of renewed arabian war, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have issued warnings, turkey has called this a red line for muslims “plunging the region and the world into a fire with no end in sight” and you say to me noone will get upset?

You need to learn how to insult someone's intelligence without simultaniously showing you have no idea what you are talking about.

Perhaps it is as simple as "American First" - Trump just truly doesn't care if the whole region explodes since that'll mean he can export a lot more military hardware which will help balance the books. Since Fracking, the oil situation isn't such a concern.

~:smoking:

Maybe the hardline christians are a consern to him and his position, never listen to relitypes a question is never a question

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greyblades

You need to learn how to insult someone's intelligence without simultaniously showing you have no idea what you are talking about.

---

How did I insult your intelligence? That's the second time you accuse me of insulting you and I have yet to receive a clarification. By the way, I urge you and Fragony to read more carefully what I wrote, especially the word really.

Caring for the Palestinians is great PR, because the Arab people feel (in a spiritual sense, not when time comes to share their living with Palestinian refugees) very attached to the Palestinians.

Hence the moral outrage, it just gives you free popularity points, but nobody is going to war for them. You confuse pretext with cause. I don't disagree with Frag, although he missed my point. Pallywood is irrelevant to all these extravagant hypothesis of yours, though, Greyblades.

Nobody important really cares about the Palestinians, suggesting that Jordan, SA or Turkey (even Iran) will declare war to Israel is as crazy as these doom and gloom predictions in my country about warlike Erdo.

Trump simply doesn't care about the fallout. I think @rory_20_uk probably hit it closest on the head.

Trump is from the "There's No Such Thing as Bad Publicity" school of thought.

Well, it's something he promised in his campaign. So did Romney as I recall, but things didn't work out for him.

Did Bush junior ever promise the same thing? It seems like the thing that Republicans promise to their voters, but in practice would never do because of the shitstorm it would cause...and then there's Trump.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crandar

Nobody important really cares about the Palestinians, suggesting that Jordan, SA or Turkey (even Iran) will declare war to Israel is as crazy as these doom and gloom predictions in my country about warlike Erdo.

---

I'm not really sure Jordan belongs in that list. AFAIK they're the only ones who bothered to give Palestinian refugees citizenship after Israel's creation. Not that they would go to war, but saying that they don't care...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kralizec

I'm not really sure Jordan belongs in that list. AFAIK they're the only ones who bothered to give Palestinian refugees citizenship after Israel's creation. Not that they would go to war, but saying that they don't care...

---

Where do you think the Palestinians come from? 'Palestina' IS a refugee camp, refugees from Jordan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Where do you think the Palestinians come from? 'Palestina' IS a refugee camp

---

I've heard people say that Palestinians are not a real nation and did not exist before 1948. I'm guessing a 3D printer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kralizec

I've heard people say that Palestinians are not a real nation and did not exist before 1948. I'm guessing a 3D printer?

---

That's pretty much true, got any landmarks besides shackles for me, surily they must be there. Oh wait there aren't any, must be raised out collective memory, and all that remained is a refugee-camp

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kralizec

I've heard people say that Palestinians are not a real nation and did not exist before 1948. I'm guessing a 3D printer?

---

Which is bullshirt front to back. Palestine was created by the British in 1919. By officially reapplying the Roman name for the area. Although even the Turks used the Arab form of Palestine when refering the area, Falestin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lars573

Which is bullshirt front to back. Palestine was created by the British in 1919. By officially reapplying the Roman name for the area. Although even the Turks used the Arab form of Palestine when refering the area, Falestin.

---

Well, it's correct in the same sense that (say) 200 years ago the Russian nation did not exist.

Modern nations are just that: modern. They weren't handed down by God at the beginning of... oooph. :sweatdrop:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Maybe the hardline christians are a consern to him and his position, never listen to relitypes a question is never a question

---

Not really a concern, but the Evangelicals were supportive of Trump and acknowledging Jerusalem as the capital was one of his campaign promises. Many of our Evangelicals are decidedly pro-Israel. So not so much a "concern" as honoring a pledge.

It was, however, one of those pledges that most of us thought would be gently pushed aside once Trump was really aware of the 'facts on the ground.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Not really a concern, but the Evangelicals were supportive of Trump and acknowledging Jerusalem as the capital was one of his campaign promises. Many of our Evangelicals are decidedly pro-Israel. So not so much a "concern" as honoring a pledge.

It was, however, one of those pledges that most of us thought would be gently pushed aside once Trump was really aware of the 'facts on the ground.'

---

Aren't most of them pro-Rapture?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Not really a concern, but the Evangelicals were supportive of Trump and acknowledging Jerusalem as the capital was one of his campaign promises. Many of our Evangelicals are decidedly pro-Israel. So not so much a "concern" as honoring a pledge.

It was, however, one of those pledges that most of us thought would be gently pushed aside once Trump was really aware of the 'facts on the ground.'

---

I hope this gently fades away

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lars573

Which is bullshirt front to back. Palestine was created by the British in 1919. By officially reapplying the Roman name for the area. Although even the Turks used the Arab form of Palestine when refering the area, Falestin.

---

Well, (trans)Jordan didn't exist as a sovereign state until 1946 either. And because that's where the Palestinians are from, according to some people, that means Palestinians are extremely profilic breaders! The land was empty of people before the Israeli settlers got there, you see.

The more conventional argument is that Palestinians were not "a people" in the sense that the Dutch or Canadians are, and that Palestine is just a geographic name. So, the occupants of the land don't deserve self-determination because that right assumes a collective identity.

I hasten to add that I don't begrudge Israel the right to exist, I just take offense at some of the more hardline, colonialist arguments used to support it.

Another thought: If this goes through, we will have acknowledged the Russian position in Crimea and Ukraine that 'force determines sovereignty'. Should also be pleasing to the usual suspects in Asia.

Another nail in the coffin of the post-war order.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kralizec

Well, (trans)Jordan didn't exist as a sovereign state until 1946 either. And because that's where the Palestinians are from, according to some people, that means Palestinians are extremely profilic breaders! The land was empty of people before the Israeli settlers got there, you see.

The more conventional argument is that Palestinians were not "a people" in the sense that the Dutch or Canadians are, and that Palestine is just a geographic name. So, the occupants of the land don't deserve self-determination because that right assumes a collective entity.

I hasten to add that I don't begrudge Israel the right to exist, I just take offense at some of the more hardline, colonialist arguments used to support it.

---

If we could take some of these arguments to their logical end, then clearly the long-suffering indigenous peoples of the Americas have the right to (peaceful!) ethnic cleansing of the settler-colonial oppressors in their midst.

Israel exists, but Jews no more "deserve" a home state than Kurds or Tibetans or Tatars, Bretons or Catalans or Saami, or anyone else.

What they arguably deserve, as arguably do we all, is good governance and robust human rights enforcement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Montmorency

Another thought: If this goes through, we will have acknowledged the Russian position in Crimea and Ukraine that 'force determines sovereignty'. Should also be pleasing to the usual suspects in Asia.

Another nail in the coffin of the post-war order.

If we could take some of these arguments to their logical end, then clearly the long-suffering indigenous peoples of the Americas have the right to (peaceful!) ethnic cleansing of the settler-colonial oppressors in their midst.

Israel exists, but Jews no more "deserve" a home state than Kurds or Tibetans or Tatars, Bretons or Catalans or Saami, or anyone else.

What they arguably deserve, as arguably do we all, is good governance and robust human rights enforcement.

---

One could argue that the latter is a luxury in a middle eastern context. The question is, do we see Israel as a middle eastern country, in which case they are by far the best of the bunch? Or are they a western country, in which case their human rights abuses are a disgrace?

Either way, the argument Frag pushes, that Palestinians do not exist, is as bad as any other deletions from history. Israel's continued existence does not depend on the erasure of Palestinians from existence. There are any number of terms for this practice, none of them reputable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

One could argue that the latter is a luxury in a middle eastern context. The question is, do we see Israel as a middle eastern country, in which case they are by far the best of the bunch? Or are they a western country, in which case their human rights abuses are a disgrace?

Either way, the argument Frag pushes, that Palestinians do not exist, is as bad as any other deletions from history. Israel's continued existence does not depend on the erasure of Palestinians from existence. There are any number of terms for this practice, none of them reputable.

---

I'm not sure it's a useful distinction where the whole region, including Israel, is liable to regress in the coming years.