Here are three bits of unconnected land, good luck!
I open it to the floor.
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Here are three bits of unconnected land, good luck!
I open it to the floor.
...
Will only lead to bloodshed, it's basicly a refugee-camp with various factions, best to leave things as they are
It's not equitable and it was never supposed to be.
Why on earth should the "world" be getting involved in this? The land was annexed off Egypt, Jordan and Syria. The UK's involvement ended in the 1940's. Perhaps after every other problem has been resolved we'll all "solve" an issue that is a problem from c. 2,000 years ago.
~:smoking:
Palestine never really was though, when was it a functioning State? Not after the 48 war, certainly not after the 67 and 73 wars and in the 90s it was returned into a warzone by the succession of intfadas.Quote:
The world waited too long and Palestine has lost. What needs to happen next is for the world community to figure out a path forward for relocation and stop dragging out this conflict.
The two (is East Jerusalem the 3rd because that's part of the West Bank) bit of land were never really created into a functioning state. After the '48 war they were essentially part of the neighboring arab countries (Gaza-Egypt, West Bank-Jordan). It was not really a state but more of a concept until the late 80s-90s when the peace talks started and the idea of an actual Palestinian state came about. The Palestinian people have more been used as a political football by the surrounding Arab states to keep the Israelis as their boogeyman when politically convenient which is why the various PLO camps in the middle east were never really resettled in the host nations and the inhabitants there never really returned to Palestine once it was seen as a State. These refugees are still waiting for Israeli to be wiped out or at the least the '48 or '67 borders restored before returning home.
It's probably be more fair to create West Bank Republic and either reincorporate Gaza into Egypt (with similar demilitarization guidelines as with Sinai for Egypt and Palestine) or create a Gaza city-state. Palestine itself is economically dependent on Israel for employment and the world at large for aid donations. The little economy it has is essentially ruined at least once a decade when war breaks out again with Israel for a few days to weeks.
The one state solution would be the most fair to Palestine (though would be unfair to Israel)in the long term because the demographics ensure that in a truly democratic government they'd rule Israel-Palestine. This would require abandoning the idea of a Jewish state born out of the aftermath of the Holocaust. In such a state though the power of the security forces, business class, and civil servants would essentially be all Israeli unless forced redistribution of political and economic power and civil service affirmative action as in South Africa are imposed.
Ahem, in my humble opinion...
This is avery complex issue (or so we have all been saying for many years of Political correctness)
the reality is that the Zionist movement got support form the world following the atrocities committed versus the Jewish people in WWII, and the world supported them to have their own new country.
Another way (Lets call this One state Scenario A) could have been to give them all Palestinian Citizenship as the new Palestinian State was being formed under British tutelage. This could have averted the ensuing War.
Following the 1948 events, the world should have acted to preserve the then borders for a Two State solution (two state scenario). It did not and the rest comes to today where there is really not much left for any functional State of Palestine.
In my opinion, the Two state Scenario is no longer possible, and of course the One state Scenario A has been nullified. So maybe there is the possibility of the One state scenario B, where Palestinians become Israel's citizens and all try to share their ancestral lands together in peace under one state flag etc.
The State could also be called "Israelstine", "Palisrael"...or adopt an ancestral name which would fatisfy both such as "The Republic of Canaan".
Whatever the case, the suffering of Palestinians needs to end. And the Healing process needs to begin. Otherwise Israel, I am afraid, no matter how much maneuvering it maybe doing to create friends in the region will never actually do because there is fundamental issues..which causes division rather than unity.
Yes, it is really complicated issue, in reality too..which the world has ignored...
Two peoples claiming the same land...in the United Nations and Declaration of Universal Human Rights World, CANNOT end with the eradication of one of the two...this path can only lead to further War...
In my humble opinion.
Not really possible. Since for every Arab Palestinian that became a refugee in '48. A Levantine or North African Jew ended up in Israel, after being run out of where ever they were. And Palestinians out number Jewish Israelis (who make up 74.7 % of Israel's population) if you count the 5 million refugees in Jordan, Syria, Lebannon, and Saudi Arabia. The 1.8 million Arab Israelis* and the 4.5 million Palestinian population in the PNA territories.
Your one state B solution makes Jewish Israelis a minority in their homeland at a pen stroke. And you've replaced what we have now for second Lebannon. The person who could convince Jewish Israelis to go with this is either:
1. A dark wizard most powerful (possibly even a space wizard)
2. A literal god
3. A telepath stronger than Professor X or Jean Grey
:wiseguy:
*Who don't universally self identify as Palestinian to avoid Jewish discrimination.
There will never be a one state solution like that has been proposed, where all Palestinians become Israeli citizens. Israel would never willingly put itself into a position where it would risk having people hostile to its existence in power. The entire idea behind Israel was to have a state where Jews were fully in control and not subject to how the local overlord is feeling about Jews that day. The number of Palestinians is relatively close to the number of Israelis. Giving them equal rights plus voting and all that would definitely put Israeli control into jeopardy. Especially if the Palestinians were granted right of return. Now consider how much bad blood there is between Israelis and Palestinians that will lead to a lot of violence. I just cannot see it working. Ever.
Two-state probably wont work either. It would require both sides to trust each other, which neither do. But it has more chance of working than the one state does. It would of course require a lot of concessions of both sides. Which by this point I dont think they would be willing to do now anyways.
There is no solution to this conflict. I just dont see it ever happening. I dont think the Palestinians will ever really get their act together to form effective resistance or act in a Nelson Mandela fashion (nonviolence). The Israelis have no real reason to end the conflict because the status quo isnt terrible for them. A few attacks here and there, but the Israeli security forces have gotten pretty darn good at stopping them.
Is this sustainable? No, but I think the Israelis will fight to keep the status quo for as long as they can. The Palestinians are going to keep doing what they do too. The image of armed resistance is good for morale.
This conflict will go on forever and ever until someone wipes out the other.
It's a problem from 70 years ago, not 2,000. Right around the time when the Uk's involvement was wrapping up...Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTYQuote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Realistically Genocide is the only solution. Which will happen once Israel doesn't have someone like the US propping them up and keeping everyone off their backs. The only real humane option is the no state for Palestinians solution. Where the Palestinian people agitate to be Egyptians, Jordanians, and Lebanese.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Ah yes. When the Jews were the terrorists. And when the UK was pressured to create the state of Israel. And then after that all the surrounding countries attacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
You seee, the most pertinent bit you wrote was "wrapping up". As in ended. As in they had their own destiny. Independence if you like.
~:smoking:
Yet the irony of all this is that Palestinians and Israelis are actually the same people Genetically...
Their only difference is their Religion and spoken Language.
And I am not referring to the relation between Hebrews and Arabs both being part of what we refer to as Semitic groups. Both are Semites.
But rather being part of the same Semitic Group.
That is ladies and gents the sad sad thing about it all.
In my view, just like in many countries today people of different ethnic origins and religions and spoken languages live in harmony and peace (Multicultural societies) same can happen in Israel.
Why can't Israel be multicultural open and progressive?
A one state solution could be possible with proper openness vision and a couple of generations of education.
It is in my view, the only Humane solution to this problem.
All other options are inhumane, and contrary to Human Rights. Posting areference to what I am stating here..and you can look it up yourselves if you like too. Plenty of results.
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-...oots-1.5411201
Oh the Irony...
Why does there have to be a solution, nobody is going to change it's mind
Here we go again about genetics, iheritance, history and ancient names...Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar
Palestinians and Israeli's are the same from the person who says Greeks and Macedonians are different.
Unfortunately this is a major oversimplification. Its more than just being multicultural and progressive. As someone who has spent a good amount of time in Israel, areas of it are actually pretty progressive and multicultural, like Tel Aviv. Gay pride parades, people of many different cultures getting along just fine. Its whats under the surface which is the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar
Lets consider these two perspectives:
Take your average Israeli. Grows up learning about the various wars with the surrounding Arab states. Knows that most Arabs arent such big fans of Israel, and by extension, Jews in general. Learns about the Holocaust and from that the intrinsic need for the Jewish people to have a home to call their own. They grow up with regular attacks occurring by Palestinians such as the one that happened today. So this breeds a natural suspicion of Palestinians. There are stories of both sides reaching out to help each other, like this story from back in 2015, but they are few and far between. Your average Israeli doesnt see an attack on soldiers in the West Bank as Palestinians defending their land, they see it as terrorists attacking people who keep the terrorists at bay. So this breeds more hostility, and a willingness to keep the boot on the neck of the Palestinians as long as it keeps preventing the more serious attacks. At the same time, the Israeli doesnt understand why the Palestinians cant just stop causing trouble so they can all live in peace. Some see past all the rhetoric of the politicians and actually do want peace though reconciliation. Others just want to see the Palestinians gone. They hate the Palestinians for what they have done, for bringing all this death and destruction. Any pain inflicted on the Palestinians was brought upon themselves for causing trouble in the first place. After all the bloodshed, how can Israel trust the Palestinians ever again? After seeing what happened to Gaza, why should Israel risk a repeat of that in the West Bank?
Now take your average Palestinian. Grows up seeing the heavy hand of Israeli occupation forces, or if in Gaza, the rampant destruction that the Israeli military has wrought. Grows up being taught about the Nakba, which is their term for the 1948 war and the mass exodus of Palestinians (some forced, some willingly) from their lands, turning them into permanent refugees. They see continual Israeli encroachment in the West Bank. The wall, the checkpoints, the concrete barriers and the barbed wire. The world protests, but doesnt actually do anything of substance. A general feeling of hopelessness is only assuaged by token resistance. Whether thats protesting, throwing rocks, attacking soldiers, or launching rockets. Why bother negotiating? They know the Israelis wont budge from their position of strength. Right of return for Palestinians? Forget it. An independent West Bank? Kinda tough with all those settlers there. The list goes on. And the resentment grows. Turns into hatred. Groups like Hamas makes people feel good, like they can still resist Israeli occupation. Even if its futile. Like with the Israelis, some Palestinians do see a brighter future. One where both sides live in peace. But its tough to keep advocating for that when your neighbor gets shot by Israeli security forces while at a protest. Or has their house bulldozed.
So this endless circle of violence continues. Nobody really wants to give more ground in this fight. I think both are going to stick it out until the end. Maybe I'm just jaded but thats how I see this playing out. Unless a miracle happens, like Oslo v2. My hopes for that continually diminish though.
It is important. Maybe you have been taught to disregard History and rewrite it as you please according to Soviet Model but the rest of the world does like to go by Scientific Evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
And in this case it was important to both Palestinians and Jewish, it was even published on Jewish news outlets.
There is nothing wrong with context it helps build bridges, and this is what needs to happen here., Both sides need to start building bridges and find common ground. Genetic evidence is common ground. Why reject it?
Were you referring to me in that statement? If yes, then you misunderstand me. Macedonians are Greeks. And Greeks are Different from the Citizens of FYROM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
I do not disagree with you. And appreciate you insight based on your first hand experience. I visited and lived in many countries in my life, went around the world many times. Unfortunately israel/Palestine was not one of them so I cannot speak form first hand experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
I offer my opinions from outside and from what I can read in the media, history and the people form there that I talk to etc.
I do understand the difficulties however that you speak of, it is why in my reply above I said it will take a couple of generations (maybe more) of education. Education to learn to live together to stop to hate.
Of course all that can only start if there is actual peace, and IDF soldiers stop having clashes with Palestinians and vice versa..
It does require Leadership initiative...from both sides, and from the people..and the Media...because much of the Hate is being maintained by the media..as evidenced by this story here:
Jews vs Arabs
Worth watching...and maybe just maybe..change will slowly happen...
No one rejects it. But you seem to believe that all the conflicts between modern countries can be solved by referring to history. Something like "You were one people a thousand/some hundred years ago. Why don't you kiss each other and forget everything that divides you". Or "what's the use of trying to reconcile these two nations - they are genetically so different". It doesn't work that way. Modern problems should be solved here and now, without looking back at what was at the time of Alexander or even before. Otherwise the British and the Germans could strike a deal quite easily in 1939 - after all they share a common Saxon heritage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar
No, I believe that knowledge and Reason & understanding along with Love and Compassion can help solve problems in today's world. History is part of the Knowledge that can bring about understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
Ignoring the lessons of history dooms people to repeat mistakes, exposes people to hate propaganda and removes opportunity for introspection.
We are all one race sharing this planet in the first place and should learn to be united and live in peace, yet in all honesty in a genuine way too.
In other words, even if unity among people is a worthy end to strive for, the ends do not justify the means nevertheless.
The way that we achieve unity matters.
I'd go back to the LoN mandates from 1919 and the Balfour Declaration myself. Though that only extends your 70 by no more than 3 decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
If only Israel had had a few overseas possessions, then they could have recruited young Palestinian Arabs into regiments to staff their overseas military.
Well, it worked reasonably well with Scotland once they hit upon the formula. The "young lions" aren't so young or hotheaded when they come home after a ten year hitch...
I have to admit I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. If I am reading the second sentence and last two sentences correctly, you do not think that the UK, US and France bears any responsibility for setting up the current situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Good point. Would further negate Rory's point that the Palestine situation of today is detached from the meddling of Great Powers in the region pre-1950.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Most of Europe was redrawn in this time frame, involving levels of destruction that the Middle East has not seen. But of course the UK is completely responsible for the actions of everyone in the Middle East... Sorry, they are responsible for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
I am amazed that the only things the UK has the power to influence is the world is in previous colonial territories.
~:smoking:
As rory's next post says, much of Europe underwent far worse destruction and suffering than the middle east has experienced since Balfour. Even the UK, the least affected of the combatant countries in WW2, had an enforced East London rebuilding programme courtesy of the Luftwaffe. When you agitate for independence, which the Palestinians did (Muslims and Jews alike), and you gain it, you take responsibility for what comes after. The Palestinians got what they demanded. For many of them, it turned out not to be what they really wanted, but that's not the fault of their previous masters. It's not like the British conducted a genocide on them prior to leaving. They wanted the British out of there so they wouldn't get in the way of fighting it out between themselves. They got what they demanded.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
As history shows, people do make mistakes irrespective of the fact if they are aware of history or not. They just think something like "this time it's not gonna be that way".Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar
The Great Powers, notably England and France but not absent the influence of the Ottomans (who owned all of the Holy Land prior to 1915) or the USA (who helped set up the LoN (even though not joining), did lay some of the groundwork for the Arab Israeli wars through the specific borders drawn etc. prior to and just after WW2. After 1948, and certainly after the Suez crisis, it would be very hard to assert that England was a prime mover for events -- that was indeed the work of the locals themselves (though aided and abetted by the USA v USSR move countermove stuff of the Cold War). England had a good deal of influence on things prior to 1948, but very little thereafter.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk