The General´s Bodyguard units

The AI seems to think that the bodyguard units are just like regular heavy cavalry units, and to be used in such a manner.

Well, I´ve modified them to be what they think they are, ie. full strength (the same as other cavalry) cavalry units, that have the in-built attack bonus (+3), a new defence bonus (+3) but lose the 2 HP they had.

Have yet to test it though. Thoughts?

Combined with my 66% kill rate mod, I hope this will mean less dead generals due to them rushing into battle before the infantry arrives.

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Originally Posted by Scorpion

The AI seems to think that the bodyguard units are just like regular heavy cavalry units, and to be used in such a manner.

Well, I´ve modified them to be what they think they are, ie. full strength (the same as other cavalry) cavalry units, that have the in-built attack bonus (+3), a new defence bonus (+3) but lose the 2 HP they had.

Have yet to test it though. Thoughts?

Combined with my 66% kill rate mod, I hope this will mean less dead generals due to them rushing into battle before the infantry arrives.

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Turn them into eastern style heavy cavalry with plenty of javelins and they'll avoid charging unless absolutely necessary.

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Originally Posted by Spino

Turn them into eastern style heavy cavalry with plenty of javelins and they'll avoid charging unless absolutely necessary.

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Good idea!

They could even become archers for added safety.

Or would there be other ways to make the units avoid battle? Perhaps taking away the whole unit, leaving just the general with plenty o´HP, would he then avoid battle like the plague? Or would he charge into battle alone?

The R:TW engine somehow determines which units are strong enough to charge a front line. This is probably either done by very high stats or attributes, ie heavy infantry/cavalry. You could try lowering the attack stat, or change the unit to light infantry or something.

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Originally Posted by Scorpion

Good idea!

They could even become archers for added safety.

Or would there be other ways to make the units avoid battle? Perhaps taking away the whole unit, leaving just the general with plenty o´HP, would he then avoid battle like the plague? Or would he charge into battle alone?

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As far as I know that's the only way really to keep them from going kamikaze. Turning all general units into tough horse archers with generous missile ranges and high ammo counts will certainly keep them out of the action unless chased towards a map edge where they could be cornered and forced to fight it out. Personally I would rather keep them a little closer to the action.

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The R:TW engine somehow determines which units are strong enough to charge a front line. This is probably either done by very high stats or attributes, ie heavy infantry/cavalry. You could try lowering the attack stat, or change the unit to light infantry or something.

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I don't think the engine makes a judgment call based on attack/defense stats for a unit's general behavior. I believe the unit's type (inf, cav, etc.), class (light or heavy) and primary weapon type determine it's behavior. I think the AI may act just as irresponsibly regardless of whether it's classified as light or heavy cavalry. I'll do some more testing tonight.

hmm, changing the class to light cavalry might be a grand idea!¬!

So, any news on this front?

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Originally Posted by Jambo

hmm, changing the class to light cavalry might be a grand idea!¬!

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This accomplishes nothing. The AI charges all cavalry. The trick is to find a unit that hangs back like real generals do.

Shame about that. Do you know what the difference is then between the 'light' and 'heavy' cavalry tags, i.e. how the AI treats them? There must be some difference otherwise there would no reason for the different tags.

One could try lowering the morale of the General unit a little. THis won't prevent the charging of the cavalry unit, but it might make it so the General lives to fight another day rather than fighting to the last man when all the rest of his army has routed. Sounds counterintuitive I know, but let me explain:

(Taken from another thread)
"I don't see any logical reason why the General should have a vastly greater morale than the other units in his army. Especially if he's to be used sparingly in battle and wants to live to see another battle. All this does is lead to the the army routing and the General hanging around to be slaughtered and I can't remember the last battle I had involving family members where the one who lost then lived to see another day.

Looking over basic troop morale:

Roman:
Equites 4
Hastati 6
Principes 7
Roman Cav 6
Legionary Cav 10
Cohort 10
Urban Cohort 12
Roman Gen Early 10
Roman Gen 10

Barbarians:
Warband 4
Barbarian Cav 4
Barbarian Noble Cav 8
Swordsmen 8
Chosen Swordsman 12
Barbarian Early Gen 12
Barbarian Gen 12

So, what this might suggest is to alter the morale of the General units to be just a little more than the rest of the units of their period.

E.g.:
Roman Gen Early 7
Roman Gen 10

Barbarian Early Gen 9
Barbarian Gen 12"

Any thoughts?

You could make them horseman archers. But give them no ammo.

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Originally Posted by Jambo

Shame about that. Do you know what the difference is then between the 'light' and 'heavy' cavalry tags, i.e. how the AI treats them? There must be some difference otherwise there would no reason for the different tags.

One could try lowering the morale of the General unit a little. THis won't prevent the charging of the cavalry unit, but it might make it so the General lives to fight another day rather than fighting to the last man when all the rest of his army has routed. Sounds counterintuitive I know, but let me explain:

(Taken from another thread)
"I don't see any logical reason why the General should have a vastly greater morale than the other units in his army. Especially if he's to be used sparingly in battle and wants to live to see another battle. All this does is lead to the the army routing and the General hanging around to be slaughtered and I can't remember the last battle I had involving family members where the one who lost then lived to see another day.

Looking over basic troop morale:

Roman:
Equites 4
Hastati 6
Principes 7
Roman Cav 6
Legionary Cav 10
Cohort 10
Urban Cohort 12
Roman Gen Early 10
Roman Gen 10

Barbarians:
Warband 4
Barbarian Cav 4
Barbarian Noble Cav 8
Swordsmen 8
Chosen Swordsman 12
Barbarian Early Gen 12
Barbarian Gen 12

So, what this might suggest is to alter the morale of the General units to be just a little more than the rest of the units of their period.

E.g.:
Roman Gen Early 7
Roman Gen 10

Barbarian Early Gen 9
Barbarian Gen 12"

Any thoughts?

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That's a good idea but since it won't affect the AI's decision to make its general unit initiate a banzai charge it might actually make that unit route long before it would have died with the default morale settings. The AI army will likely get its clock cleaned in the same spectacular fashion except earlier than normal. Do some tests and tell us what you find.

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You could make them horseman archers. But give them no ammo.

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This might work but I fear that the absence of ammo might force the unit to act like any melee oriented light cavalry unit. It's definitely worth a try.

MTW battles would crash if a missile unit had 0 ammo, but maybe thats changed in RTW.


CBR

Spino,

at least this method will hopefully keep the General alive to fight another day. If he stays and dies, his death will ultimately result in the rout of the army anyway.

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Originally Posted by Jambo

Spino,

at least this method will hopefully keep the General alive to fight another day. If he stays and dies, his death will ultimately result in the rout of the army anyway.

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Ok. However, you may want to consider offsetting the lower morale by raising the Hit Points of all general units to increase their survivability. FYI, all general-only cavalry units in the export_descr_unit.txt file have two hit points, not one. Or you could take Scorpion's suggestion and increase the Attack & Defense ratings.

hehe, yep, that's exactly what I did. My generals have 3 HP :D Seems to work quite well.

I tried changing the class of the bodyguard units to spearmen (and the ones with ranged attacks to missile), which seems to work quite well, didnt test it really yet. The general stays behind their main line until your lines clash. Dont know if changing them to spearmen gives them bonus to cavalry though.

I also decreased their attack and charge value a little, but that doesnt seem to make a difference. Decreasing their charge range might also help, because then its less likely they are the first one into enemy lines.

Giving them 3 HP is too much imo. Especially the retinue of a king (twice as big as normal?) is a tough nut to crack with 3 HP.

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Originally Posted by David

I tried changing the class of the bodyguard units to spearmen (and the ones with ranged attacks to missile), which seems to work quite well, didnt test it really yet. The general stays behind their main line until your lines clash. Dont know if changing them to spearmen gives them bonus to cavalry though.

I also decreased their attack and charge value a little, but that doesnt seem to make a difference. Decreasing their charge range might also help, because then its less likely they are the first one into enemy lines.

Giving them 3 HP is too much imo. Especially the retinue of a king (twice as big as normal?) is a tough nut to crack with 3 HP.

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So what's the verdict David? Have you done enough testing to determine whether this was an adequate fix?

Arrgh! Double post! Mods, please delete!

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Originally Posted by David

I tried changing the class of the bodyguard units to spearmen (and the ones with ranged attacks to missile), which seems to work quite well, didnt test it really yet. The general stays behind their main line until your lines clash. Dont know if changing them to spearmen gives them bonus to cavalry though.

I also decreased their attack and charge value a little, but that doesnt seem to make a difference. Decreasing their charge range might also help, because then its less likely they are the first one into enemy lines.

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The category and class items are used to determine the unit's placing in the group formations which the AI uses, so changing them should have an effect. Other than that, DJ was right in saying that the AI uses stats-based evaluation functions to determine wether or not to attack, and increasing the hp should make them more likely to attack rather than less, as the unit will evaluate as being even stronger -- although it will survive longer once in combat. The spear bonuses are governed by the 'spear' weapon attribute, rather than unit category or class.

Hope that helps.

So, if we were to decrease the attack value and proportionally increase the defence value of the general unit, the AI should control the general unit in a more defensive manner?

I was thinking, some units are by default in guard mode such as most phalanx troops. Surely somewhere you can specify the default the mode of the troop? Thought I'd throw the idea out.

edit: I suppose that's what David did, but could it be done with cavalry?

Thanks Jerome

Tried it some more and it works pretty good. During sieges AI general also tends to stay on the town square, which is a good thing i think. However it only works with family members, so all the other generals will still charge too early. But at least some of the generals behave normal.

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Originally Posted by David

Thanks Jerome

Tried it some more and it works pretty good. During sieges AI general also tends to stay on the town square, which is a good thing i think. However it only works with family members, so all the other generals will still charge too early. But at least some of the generals behave normal.

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David,

Could you explain exactly what you did that works?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by David

I tried changing the class of the bodyguard units to spearmen (and the ones with ranged attacks to missile), which seems to work quite well, didnt test it really yet. The general stays behind their main line until your lines clash. Dont know if changing them to spearmen gives them bonus to cavalry though.

I also decreased their attack and charge value a little, but that doesnt seem to make a difference. Decreasing their charge range might also help, because then its less likely they are the first one into enemy lines.

Giving them 3 HP is too much imo. Especially the retinue of a king (twice as big as normal?) is a tough nut to crack with 3 HP.

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But perhaps you'd better try realism mod

I tested reducing the stat_charge to 20 (50% lower than default). Most infantry have a stat_charge of 30, so the general unit does linger behind during attacks and rarely charges ahead of the infantry.

Hmm, i tried that one Turbo and it didn't really give great results. AI still charges the general into the fray.

Would changing the category of AI generals to 'missile' help? I noticed that the standard Egyptian Chariots have the missile category, however, the Egyptian general (also Egyptian chariot) has the 'heavy' category even though it's a unit with missiles...!?!

I think I might give this a shot and see what happens...