Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie

It's probably been discussed to death, revived, and discussed to death again. but he.
-anybody tell me who's qoute it is, and what it means(sorta quiz.~;))
-will EB's spartans fight in the same style as thei thermopylan predecesors or will they be more like the Iphicraten ones?
-i know the spartans wont be CA's juggernauts(luckily) but hwo will they compare?
-since Sparta has bled to death, what number will be one unit (like: normal ones are 40..wiht how many will teh spartans be?)
-will they get two hitpoints?(wich brings me to my next topic)

i think its just the writing on a plaque written over the spartan's grave at thermopylae that celebrates the spartan's bravery in defending the path for 3 days. the "laws" just mean that sparta had a law that no man could run away in battle.

i could be rambling and completely wrong, so i apologise if i am.

indeed, i just looked it up.
i primiraly got it form Steven Pressfield. but the line is form simonides.
thanks for the bump!

300 Spartans didnt hold the path for 3 days thats a myth. It was a largish army of united Greeks most of whom retreated after holding the pass for some days. The Spartans stays behind like the strongheaded fools they were and were annihilated by skirmishers since the Persians didnt want to engage them head on (with good reason)

yup,,that's right..with their allies they held the pass for 7 days total, wasn't it? of those 7, the 300 only did the last day 'by themselves'.
didn't know they were out-skirmished tough, but a sensible strat for the persians..

Thank you for clarifying that. I have always despised the legend of the Spartans who fought for a whole day to allow their allies to retreat- no general with any common sense would send wave after wave of men to their death.

remember Cannae?

The univ. that I'm at now has a big monument with that greek phrase on it. It has to do with a lot of university students being killed in battle and honoring them. It's cool to be able to point students toward it and explain it to them - they rarely know anything about it even though it's smack-dab in the middle of campus. I'll not say what war it was...

hmm...tell me about that...
do you actually live in sparta? wich war? what is there to 'know' about it?

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Originally Posted by meatwad

Thank you for clarifying that. I have always despised the legend of the Spartans who fought for a whole day to allow their allies to retreat- no general with any common sense would send wave after wave of men to their death.

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Uhhh....

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Uhhh....

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yeah..it indeed wouldn't be teh first time..

cannae..well basically every battle the Pre-marian romans lost was because of sheer arrogance an overconfidence in numbers...
Thermopyale seems to fit that row.
Gaugamela is also a nice one in this row.

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Originally Posted by jerby

hmm...tell me about that...
do you actually live in sparta? wich war? what is there to 'know' about it?

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Nah, in the U.S. - it's a civil war monument actually.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Nah, in the U.S. - it's a civil war monument actually.

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ahh, ok..

sorry, i confused you with Idomedas...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerby

It's probably been discussed to death, revived, and discussed to death again. but he.
-anybody tell me who's qoute it is, and what it means(sorta quiz.~;))
-will EB's spartans fight in the same style as thei thermopylan predecesors or will they be more like the Iphicraten ones?
-i know the spartans wont be CA's juggernauts(luckily) but hwo will they compare?
-since Sparta has bled to death, what number will be one unit (like: normal ones are 40..wiht how many will teh spartans be?)
-will they get two hitpoints?(wich brings me to my next topic)

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1) Huh?
2) They will fight with underhand spears. Spartiates will probably be the best KH unit, though not juggernauts.
3) On Large, probably 60 or 80
4) probably not

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Originally Posted by jerby

cannae..well basically every battle the Pre-marian romans lost was because of sheer arrogance an overconfidence in numbers...
Thermopyale seems to fit that row.
Gaugamela is also a nice one in this row.

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As I said, no general with any sense . After several days of slaughtering your men on a forest of spear-points, even the worst general will realise it's rime for a change of pace. However, what I always learned was that the tactics did not change, even when it was only the Spartans defending the pass.

As you said, Cannae was an act of arrogance. If the Roman generals had seen the trap lain before them , I doubt they would have sent their men to die en masse.

What happened at Gaugamela? I never learned that particular battle...
I know, it's sad. :embarassed:

What about the entirety of World War I up until the closing 100 days or so?

Look, forget I said anything. The only reason I commented on this thread was because I despise stories of a vastly outnumbered force overcoming the odds and defeating, or at least nearly defeating, the enemy. That's why I hate the Greeks. I think it's an obsession that began with "The Charge of the Light Brigade"- when I first read it, it struck me as a load of crap. Noone should glorify the butchering of perfectly good elite soldiers, regardless of the outcome of the battle. It's sick. That's what cannon fodder is for.

Okay, rant over. I hope you don't take this personally- it's just that I hate Alfred Lord Tennyson.

No, you guys are telling me the Spartans didnt hold it by themselves. My dream is crushed... :embarassed:

I believe the actual quote was "Go and tell the Lacodaemonians..." not Spartans. Also, there were, in fact two survivors of the 300, both of whom were disgraced and one of whom committed suicide. As far as skirmishers and whatnot, the pass at Thermopylae isn't exactly a wide open space, it's not like the Spartans had flanks to harrass at that point.

well, if it looked like i was personal, i was sorry..it was more meant of a (sarcastic)joke.
and about the glory of being butchered is, in a way, indeed dumb. but it's somehow heroic, i personally found it breathtakign to read how spartans(&allies)stood up against such a force, each man taking 10 persians with him. but at Thermopylae it was mostly a neccesity to atke that stand..dunno how futile it was in your book.

about gaugamela. it was a Victory of Alexander on Darius, on open field. alexander being outnumbered 1:2 or even 1:3 (Alex had 47.00 inf, and 7.00 cav. Darius is guessed between 100.00 and even 500.00). what actually happened isn't know. the dust was kicked up rapidly. and nobody coudl really notice what was goign on everywhere.
quite possibly Alexanders strategy of an echelon-phalanx with light cav on the left. and heavy cav+alexander on teh right.
it's not really a typical case of alex slaughtering teh Persians. Alexander didn't win, Darius just lost: Darius himself fled, and with him, a lot of his army. probably one section of darius his line refused, creating a gap in wich Alexander rushed to get to Darius. maybe soembody else can get it better..

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Originally Posted by Iskandr

I believe the actual quote was "Go and tell the Lacodaemonians..." not Spartans. Also, there were, in fact two survivors of the 300, both of whom were disgraced and one of whom committed suicide. As far as skirmishers and whatnot, the pass at Thermopylae isn't exactly a wide open space, it's not like the Spartans had flanks to harrass at that point.

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2? i only know of the squire(Xeo). and as far as i know teh spartans retreated to a 'hill' and teh persians didn't try to get to them. the just archered them to death...
i believe skirmish also means archery, and not just harrassing with javelinmen, dunno exact.

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Originally Posted by meatwad

Look, forget I said anything. The only reason I commented on this thread was because I despise stories of a vastly outnumbered force overcoming the odds and defeating, or at least nearly defeating, the enemy. That's why I hate the Greeks. I think it's an obsession that began with "The Charge of the Light Brigade"- when I first read it, it struck me as a load of crap. Noone should glorify the butchering of perfectly good elite soldiers, regardless of the outcome of the battle. It's sick. That's what cannon fodder is for.

Okay, rant over. I hope you don't take this personally- it's just that I hate Alfred Lord Tennyson.

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umm... the spartans were wiped out, they lost the battle of Thermopylae, and it was only the first day of fighting that the spartans werent right at the front. and not all 300 were killed, 1, a man named Aristodemus survived and returned to Sparta where he was shunned and dishonoured for abondoning his post. He reclaimed his honour a year later by dying in battle against the Persians

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Nah, in the U.S. - it's a civil war monument actually.

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In which case the only question is, which side. Not that I really have to ask, seeing where you live . . .

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Originally Posted by Wishazu

umm... the spartans were wiped out, they lost the battle of Thermopylae, and it was only the first day of fighting that the spartans werent right at the front. and not all 300 were killed, 1, a man named Aristodemus survived and returned to Sparta where he was shunned and dishonoured for abondoning his post. He reclaimed his honour a year later by dying in battle against the Persians

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True, but my point was that they were left to be slaughtered (almost) to a man. The greeks should have pulled up any auxiliaries- if they had any- and told them to hold the pass. This would have saved the lives of 300 Spartan soldiers, who could have been used at another battle, possibly eve to defend Athens.

Anyway, my main point is that the glorification of such a slaughter is a twisted military obsession with honor and glory which I despise. My hatred of Tenysson also got thown in; but that is partly because I dislike most English poets (Chaucer and Colerige are definite exceptions.)

Actually, I seem to have lost my own train of thought. Well, as long as we are on the subject, I like cottage cheese.

Well there was a military point and a "religious" point to it as well, though they might not outweigh the tactical importance of having those men available later - no one can really answer that question: their success while killing off a lot of the innumerable Persians also arguably frightened the Persian soldiers much more when at the end of the episode--did it make a difference at Plataea? Maybe, maybe not, but I'd wager the average Persian didn't know much about them before Thermopylae, but knew a lot more and didn't want to meet any more of them after it. Also, at least after the fact an oracle from Delphi was passed around that it was prophesised that a Spartan king must die for the Spartans to defeat the Persians. To us it seems like pure fantasy, and I'm not saying the omen was true, but did it inspire the Spartans and the other Greeks then at Plataea and Salamis too even? It's quite possible - they believed much much more than modern cultures that magic and omens and especially the oracular responses of Apollo did actually carry weight and affect things. Just some points to think about...

Cottage cheese is revolting.

i was under the impression that the theban band of lovers also died at thermopylae (although not at the same time or place as the spartans). weren't they guarding the pass that led around behind the greek fortifications? and didn't they all get killed in their sleep or sumthing? this is just wat my history teacher told me dunno if it is true or not.

[QUOTE=meatwad]

As you said, Cannae was an act of arrogance.

Not Hannibal genius's ?

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Cottage cheese is revolting.

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I ask not how much Cottage cheese is there, just where is it! ~:cheers:
Let us be crushing this revolt! :charge: :charge: :charge:

For any here looking for information on the Battle of Thermopylae in a brief and easily digestible form then go here to the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae

What the Greeks and especially the Spartans did there was incredible and is worth every bit of admiration that has been heaped on that battle.

Incidently I heard they're making a movie based off of the novel 'Gates of Fire', and it mentions it at that link.