Diplomacy is bugged

Guys, i think allmost nobody is happy with diplomacy now. You know the reasons but i will place them anyway:

1- AI never not respects Aliances (if you dont pay for respetc, what is ridiculous)
2- If you share borders with AI it will allways declare war at you (even if they got a crapy situation, een if you can smach then, even if it is crazy)
3- AI blocks allied ports for no reason stargint a war it will certainly lose (i believe its a random attack, cuz its pretty stupid)
4- Sometimes you can ofer all your citys, tons of money, anything, AI wont accept a ceasefire, NEVER
5- The reputation sistem is useless, AI doesnt act acording to it. You may have the best relation with a factio and it will atack you for nor reason
6- AI doesnt see any difrence between attackers and defenders and you will lose reputation points anyway

I believe CA wont fix that till we report it as TERRIBLE BUGS. Complaint about diplomacy is useless so lets report it THE MAJOR BUG! Nothing hurts the gameplay as this stupid and sneaky AI.
So please, lets report it as a major bug, lets save this game... they wont fix the diplomacy if we dont do it.

[QUOTE=Eques]2- If you share borders with AI it will allways declare war at you (even if they got a crapy situation, een if you can smach then, even if it is crazy)c

Strange, i share borders with Hungary in my Venetian campaign for 70 tuirns and not been attacked. But yes generally the ai will attack you, as the game is set up as you vs the ai.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eques

4- Sometimes you can ofer all your citys, tons of money, anything, AI wont accept a ceasefire, NEVER

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I get the ai to accept ceasfires all the time. But that's if i just beat ups its invading armies. If i go imnto its lands, capture all of its cities then it wont accept.

Look, im not tearing the game apart. But you cant close your eyes and deny it! The Diplomacy is a JOKE. Stop saying it works cuz it doesnt. Acting like that, closing your eyes to all these many, many, many posts will keep the game bad. Sometimes defend CA is the best thing to do, but this time its like attack the game itself. Defend diplomacy systen is act as a fanboy, not ofense dude.
Dont close your eyes, see the foruns, you are a moderator, you know how many people hates diplomacy, why do you act like that?

Because i sometimes wonder if anyone has actually thought about diplomacy in the TW series. It has basically been the same throughout the series. Doesn't that make you think this is the way CA want the diplomacy to be. So that you can't just sit there in peace surrounded by allies, you have to fight, and be in WAR.

If you take the time to work on diplomacy, you can get long standing alliances(record for me: 168 turns as the English allied with the Scots.). You can get ceasfires if you dont beat up an enemy nation, as then you've just mad eth enenemy made towards you. Yes, the ai backstabs you. But the player backstabs the ai all the time. The ai is trying to stop you from winning, it is you vs the ai to conquer the world.

Just some thoughts.

Try lowering the campaign difficulty. The AI will be less agressive (suicidal) then.

The reputation systen does not work in ANY LEVEL (BUG)
The only way to maintain any aliance is paying the AI (BUG)
The AI is losing all its setlements but does not accept a ceasefire (BUG)

Ah, its a waste of time. Im sure you all know my points. If you are happy with the game like it is now, go a head, ruin it. But this will be my last total war game if CA doesnt fix that.

I've only played 30 turns into a campaign because i only got the game yesterday, and it's wonderful... I like the way battles are longer, i like the skins, i like the effects and animations, i like everything, but 30 turns into my very first campaign and i can surely say that the AI is absolutely no improvement upon RTW or any other RTS game in history.

The first thing i did in my first campaign was make alliances... With everybody. As England, i allied with Scotland, France, the unholy unRoman non empire, the two factions north of Italy, the Danes and the two Spanish factions... I played peacefully, captured two rebel provinces, never attacked anyone, never sent spies into anyone, never assassinated, never did anything... Married my princess to some French dood...

Then, 20 or so turns in, i saw a rather suspicious French army looming at the border with Caen... One turn later, it stepped over the border... One more turn later, it laid siege to Caen while my (tiny) army on the continent had just captured a rebel province and so was very very weak...

I lost Caen, then i realised the Danes had actually broke the alliance with me in favour of France, who were the aggresors... Then the next turn they laid siege to the small town i had just captured from the rebels...

5 or so turns later my standing with the pope began to drop, even though i was the innocent party here...

Show me where to sign, i'll complain about this. If it's on the totalwar.com forums then i can't, i'm banned for life there, so somebody gonna have to post for me.

Some fascinating insights.

Bad seller, would not recommend D-

I know my english lacks some "refination" hehehe, but i see people complaiing about it and doing nothing, since RTW. This freaky diplomacy behavior is never in the bugs report. I just fell we got do something about it.

the AI tends to grab any opportunity you give them for an easy settlement.

Oy vey...

1) This is not supposed to be Civilization. Totally different mindset - not power through peace, but peace through power.

2) In Shogun, you have all these different Japanese families who loathe each other because they're standing in each other's way of controlling Japan. In Medieval and Medieval 2, you have all these different European familes who loathe each other because they're standing in each other's way of controlling Europe. In Rome, you have all these different cultural groups who loathe each other because they're standing in each other's way of controlling Europe. :idea2:

3) The games are vastly more accurate than you might guess. Alliances in ancient and medieval times almost never lasted very long. The Persians and the various Greek cities had so many diplomatic intrigues with each other (Athens allies with Ionians against Persia, Persia attacks Athens, Athens and Sparta ally to push back Persia, Athens and Sparta declare war with each other, Sparta allies with Persia...) that you could write an epic that could well dwarf Homer's Iliad. Rome was particularly notable for almost never allying with anyone because, after all, there was Rome and there was everybody else, and who wants to ally with barbarian scum? (Realistically, "alliances" were made for the sake of expediency-Greeks support Rome against Macedon, Rome support Aedui in Gaul to defeat Avernii-but they were almost always used for stalling, as the Greeks and the Aedui rather quickly found out). And of course in medieval times, there was hardly ever a time when "peace" was widespread, and notable "alliances" like, say, the one between the French and the Scots were more out of a mutual hatred of England rather than any real sense of committment to each other. The Shi'a -Sunni conflict was as volatile back then as it was today in the Middle East - read up on how Saladin came to power. It is extremely easy but extremely wrong to assume that the ancient political world was anything like the political world today; while this is a major generalization, alliances today are generally to avoid war altogether, while alliances back then were generally to stall war.

I'm not going to bother to go on further, because it's late and I have a headache. And, yes, while, I agree that there are some problems with diplomacy in the current build - mostly with interacting with the Papacy - I don't really think that there is a problem with the diplomacy engine per se. In my current HRE campaign, where I'm ranked as the most powerful faction militarily, I have or have had alliances with:

France: Intact, marriage
England: Intact, marriage
Milan: Intact, big army nearby
Venice: Broken, but I'd hemmed them in and had a big army nearby (see above)
Sicily: Broken, but they were allied with Venice (and nobody ever likes the HRE)
Denmark: Intact, army nearby
Poland: Intact, army nearby
Hungary: Intact, we mostly ignore each other

I've never broken an alliance and my reputation is "Reasonable." I can't persuade my allies to join me in war but 1) they're also all interallied with each other and 2) I can offer few real incentives for them to care. My standing with the Papacy has grown a bit from using Priests, fallen because of the fighting (where we [the enemy and I] both fell), and then slightly gone up again because of preaching.

That's all I can remember. Now, while that's not to say none of those things might change - Poland in particular worries me, because they took Prague before I could - I wouldn't be exceptionally surprised if any of them did. I'd be disappointed, sure, but hey, that's life in the medieval wolrd I suppose.

I don't think the AI is all that buggy at all. It's actually pretty fair in how it handles itself in the game. I think if your faction is generally weaker than your neighbors, you'll be prone to their attacks. However, if you are one of the most powerful factions on the map, then your neighbors WILL NOT touch you...especially if your standing with the Pope is perfect or nearly perfect. I've been playing as the English for 40 or 50 turns. I am by far the richest country on the map, have the second biggest army next to the HRE and have greased up the Pope with some bribery that got me into a good standing with the old man. As a result, everyone else (at least up to this point) have been playing nicely with me--no attacks & no treachery...if anything, all the factions I've come across have made efforts to become my ally and wilt under my demands...

Eques,

WHAT difficulty are you playing on???

Read, the Comrades post as it is accurate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dayve

5 or so turns later my standing with the pope began to drop, even though i was the innocent party here... Bullcrap.

Show me where to sign, i'll complain about this. If it's on the totalwar.com forums then i can't, i'm banned for life there, so somebody gonna have to post for me.

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Well, what do you expect from His Holyness? The French and the Danes both say they are just repulsing the attacks you have been long preparing. They act in precaution. After all everybody see you are pursuing expansionist military policies. One look at your "innocent" face expression is enough.

Try This!
English Campaign now holding 50 regions. Timurids have now invaded Russia, my allies and bezzy buddies. Sent over a diplomat to Novgorod and asked to exchange Map Information to see where they were up to.

Just Rejected came the reply. How about this? My Map Information and they GIVE me 450 florins. Negative I said. I want your map info... for mine... You really get the better deal here Russia.

Still no. What rubbish.

Wanna know why do i think diplomacy is screwed?
I was playing Venice, m/m. Destroyed Milan, had those rich islands, jerusalem also. Then a french princess purposed marriage. I tough "cool :), these marriages sound like stable aliances." My prince was married, Venice and french bounded for ever. Next turn a royal member of the french faction, with some peasants and other stupid units sieged one of my well defended towns. Our relations were at the best level, we had a marriage aliance and the AI just attacked me in the very next turn.
Now you tell me that diplomacy is working and the AI isnt ridiculous!

On my opinion, and I've been playing TW since old Shogun, diplomacy in MTW 2 is much more sensible and understandable than in the others. :2thumbsup:

I now play English, m/m, I've got a "very reliable" reputation and I've got several long-lasting alliances going on, including the Pope. I am not particulary aggressive and try to expand mostly over Rebel and non-catholic lands, to avoid excomm.

Things quickly deteriorated with Byzantines after I captured Constantinople, held by Egypt at the time - it seems Byzantines really want the city back, so they declared war.

With my European Catholic neighbors, relations worsened and some wars broke after I took Jerusalem - which is THE victory condition. Very nicely, Venetians proposed peace only 4 turns after I had to abandon Jerusalem (which rebelled), due to Mongol pressure in Mid-East (oh! I hate their guts :laugh4: ).

Still, it seems there is no way I could get the Danes to accept a cease-fire, though I never attacked them, I never got one of their cities, even from other faction, and I have one of their armies resting under my Bruges city walls, for like 10 turns now, them not attacking, me not attacking.

In that phase (and on that difficulty level) i don't have the feeling everybody gangs up on me, which is nice.

The AI is going to betray you sooner than later. Sometimes alliances hold if the AI has better things to do with his armies than fight against you. Keeping large garrisons on the mutual border discourages the AI from breaking the alliances.

For example I saw that the byzantines where coming to my territory. I quickly hired as much mercenaries as I could and hired more troops. Once the AI saw this they returned to their territory. We where allied but he clearly wanted to attack me.

If you have strong carrisons the AI wil go around this normally by blocking your harbour. Sometimes this feateure seems very stupid like the AI didn't even mean to start the war but he just had to block my harbour.

The diplomacy itself is quite easy. When making peacefull propositions allways try to get the proposition to balanced. If you have generous or very generous suggestion add a regular tripute to it and you can make a very good income for several turns. The only thing that might prevent this is that the other nation is broke during that turn. Wait for the next one.

Also you cannot make alliances with someone if you are already allied with their enemy. The AI will allways refuse it.

If you can't make a deal in ther first proposition and get toally turned down wait for the next turn. AI seems to allways reject the second proposition too.

When making peace try to get more military power to the enemy's territory than he has. That makes him very willing to make peace and even give you regions if the AI calculates that he has no other choice. If you are attacking with only one army you will most likely get turned down.

I agree diplomacy isnt that weird im mtw2. Realistic even. See my thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72879. I really dont understand the flame/whine efforts to get this 'changed'. I can understand if people want more diplomacy options, but what would one suggest? There even is an option to ask another party to attack a faction. What more should be in the game to make it more functional diplomacy wise?

Agree with Comrade Alexo. This game doesn't offer multiple paths to victory, it offers one - wiping out everyone in your way until you have enough provinces to trip the 'I win' switch.

It's important to see alliances in the game for what they are - temporary 'fight together' pacts between competing factions. In a modern context, it's more like a loose cartel agreement between businesses than a permanent merger. Both sides pause to allow them to compete more effectively against other threats, all the while watching their back in paranoia.

Another good comparison someone suggested was the pact between Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia. They were allies too until 1941, when Hitler invaded Russia causing Stalin to make the same sort of complaint as many members of this forum have made - "Hey, my totally untrustworthy backstabbing ally has just invaded me! The swine!". At least we forumites aren't executing the spies who brought us the bad news because we didn't want to believe it. Although I think some might if the game gave us the option...

If the AI respects alliances for as much as 2-3 turns, that's great. You can't leave a skeleton garrison in any settlement bordering an AI ally unless you KNOW that their armies are elsewhere and there's an easier non-allied target they can be going for. Otherwise, prepare to lose an ally and maybe a city/castle and some troops, because you've done the equivalent of plonking a large and open bottle of brandy down on the table in front of a recovering alcoholic and walking out. Will he go for it? What do you think?

Am playing as England and have conquered all of France, some HRE and parts of Denmark.

I am at war with Milan and Spain. I have one diplomat each at the northern Spanish provinces trying to convince them that peace is the way to go. They are not interested (even if I offer them large sums of money - just for fun).

However, one thing did strike me as weird. They are currently on my land with two huge stacks of armies, yet, when I ask them for money (100 florins) the offer me 2000 instead - at times without even asking for anything. At other times they ask me not to attack. As I am not suicidal, I won't and let them pay me every turn (conceeded, they do tend to pay me less and less everytime).

All this gives me a total of well over 3000 florins every turn as I have now decided to play the same game with Denmark.

Peace (neutral stance) will not let you allow to use your diplomats to any further effect apart from using them to give presents.

I wonder if anyone esle has tried this...if not, have a go and let me know...

Quid

I dont know if you guys play dumb. I will try do explain it in simple words. You guys know what reputation is? I bet you do. So i got an ecxelent reputation in the game but the AI keep backstabing me. Does reputation works? No.
Like i told, i had a marriage alliance with the french. My army was the strongest army in the face of the earth. Next turn after the aliance the french atack with a ridiculous army. Is there any reason in this behavior? NO, its ridiculous.
I am crushing the french now, I offered all their citys back and a lot of money. The french sayd no as that ridiculous deameor stuff was allways down and down (i say: its mderator edit broken). Now the french died :laugh4: . The deamenor is working? NO.
Now you tell me diplomacy is perfect. Now you tell me everything is allright. Now i tell you you are just blody fanboys and you will destroy this game!
I wont say nothing about this mater anymore.

Well, it seems the original poster does not want to actually discuss anything in this thread, just brow beat those who won't join his rant.

It's a shame because diplomacy is an important issue. But I think the topic might be more productively and civilly discussed in other threads.

:closed: