Whose values are they anyway?

A (deliberately) provocative but nevertheless worthwhile article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...982376,00.html

For me personally, where it goes wrong is the assumption that you can only achieve the values she speaks about with a religious input, but other than that there is food for thought here.

I was also struck by a comemnt from a feriend of mine who married an American and joined an American protestant church. After we had explored some of his beliefs, and after I had made my predictable reactions to them, he obserevd that he didn't really believe anything that wasn't mainstream C of E belief 100 years ago. Which is true. I'll spare you my obvious retort, but the same can be said, more or less, for mainstream observant muslims today (with some changes in the details, naturally).

Am I the mainstream, or are they....?

Here's how I see it. If you're going to move to another country, you should integrate YOURSELF into THEIR culture. I'm not going to move India and open a beef slaughterhouse, for example. (Not to say that the Muslims are behaving that offensively).


Most of the problems in our society are caused when people refuse let go of their own traditions or at least accept the traditions of others. The "us vs them" mentality is destrutive and serves no purpose since there isn't any danger of "them" coming over and killing "us" anymore. (I'm speaking in terms of multiple subcultures that live withing a larger community, not the world community, which is still quite "us vs them.")

I know plenty of people who are from Iran and other parts of the Middle East and yet have had NO problems at all integrating into Middle-American culture. I don't really see the point of leaving your own country, flying halfway around the world, and living in the exact same way you could have lived if you hadn't moved at all.

She has a point about mainstream culture that I gree with, we're on the slide. On the other hand this all began with multiculturalism and political correctness trying to "civilise" our own remaining "barbarian" customs, such as corporal punishment in schools.

Muslims don't have anything to teach us that we don't know, we just need to be brave enough to apply what our parents taught us.

Here is a reply posted to the article on The Guardian's site:

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Originally Posted by RameshN

All Vietnamese, Koreans, Chinese, Japanese and Hindu Indians likewise are more likely to have two-parent families, have extended kin networks and social supports, and rather stern notions of family discipline. This extends both in their homelands and in those settled in the West.

Regarding the Chinese, a century ago many men wore pigtails and the women endured the cruel practice of footbinding. These practices were swept away in the name of modernisation, without anyone claiming that footbinding was an integral part of Daoist or Buddhist or for that matter, Maoist female identity. Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and Vietnamese have adapted to Western dress without sacrificing their kin structures or their sense of cultural identity.

In America, American born Asians have the highest rate of out-group dating and marriage in the country. In fact, in California and New York, more American born Asian women are marrying non-Asians than Asians, yet this has not led to a deterioration in terms of drug abuse etc. In fact, the Asians have higher educational qualifications than whites for similar age groups.

Comparisons of educational qualifications of Muslims, Hindus and East Asians in Western Europe demonstrate that Muslims have lower educational qualifications than whites, the other two groups having similar qualifications or superior. Hence, if the theory that Muslim values were superior, this differential would not exist.

Asian groups which have done poorly are almost entirely refugee groupings where the original community was devastated by warfare : the Hmong, Laotians, Cambodians, and to a lesser extent, the Vietnamese 'boat people' of Chinese ethnicity.

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Muslim values? Bah! What arrogance!

Her description of the so-called Muslim values fit just about every bloody society out there since time immemorial that embraces the value of tradition as law. China for most of its history is actually a far more prominent example than her "Muslim-ness" claims to be. Confucianism, anyone?

As a matter of fact, as someone who came from such a society myself, I found the Western-American liberalism to be, quite honestly, a liberation. Get me back in that cage and I'll topple her nice conformist society with a revolution if need be.

[sarcasm]Children these days, don't appreciate what they have[/sarcasm]

^ Following Antiochus's lead, the values she endorses have actually made a number of my friend's what she says it prevents. Strict parents have driven them to be rebellious simply to prove they can.

Keep up the good fight britians.

As long as what immigrants do doesn't go against established laws it's fine by me. Some of their practices I may disagree with, but that is not strictly limited to the practices of immigrants. I find it wrong when laws are taken out of their original context against specific ethnic groups, or when specific laws are created against such groups.

The only thing I believe to be necessary is that immigrants are at least knowledgeable in the language and culture of the place to which they've emigrated. The don't have to agree with the customs, or even follow them as long as they don't break laws, but they do need to be aware of what makes the country they're living in tick.

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Originally Posted by holybandit

Keep up the good fight britians.

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As bad as I wanna be.~;p

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Originally Posted by holybandit

Keep up the good fight britians.

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They used to make very good quality toys back in the '60s......

here

Although I'm sure that you meant the subjects of Her Britannic Majesties realm of the Kingdoms of England, Scotland, the Principality of Wales and the Province of Northern Ireland. Now didn't you? :inquisitive:

:laugh4:

Her name looks like something outta Scrabble. She needs to get off her high horse and be happy she was allowed to immagrate to a country like Briton and partake in things her anxectors had no help creating

Briton?

Seriously though, if you move to a country you shouldn't try to change it once you arrive. Britain is a product of it's history and traditions and many of the current problems stem from trying to ignore these.

I like Britain, so I'm not emmigrating. Presumably if you are emmigrating its because you think the place you're going to is better than the one you left. So don't try to make it like the place you left, if you don't like it you can go home.

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Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

Briton?

Seriously though, if you move to a country you shouldn't try to change it once you arrive. Britain is a product of it's history and traditions and many of the current problems stem from trying to ignore these.

I like Britain, so I'm not emmigrating. Presumably if you are emmigrating its because you think the place you're going to is better than the one you left. So don't try to make it like the place you left, if you don't like it you can go home.

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I'd say that the desire to engage in the adopted country's social and political discourse with your own background and input is actually a good indication that an individual has become involved in the country's life -- as good a defining trait of "citizen" as any.

That doesn't necessary make that individual's arguments suddenly more effective and valid, though. Ms. Manzoor's article, in my opinion, is just pure bollocks; unless one reads it as a backlash against the ever-growing cries of "integrate, now!" within British society, and not as an argument to actually create such a state of being that she apparently aspires to.

In my view Muslims generally have a lot of values whereas secularists (ie: society at large) have none whatsoever.

Therefore it is indeed a great idea for the British to integrate into Muslim values.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

In my view Muslims generally have a lot of values whereas secularists (ie: society at large) have none whatsoever.

Therefore it is indeed a great idea for the British to integrate into Muslim values.

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Such as?

If you mean those mentioned in the article then please explain why you agree with it.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Such as?

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Such as Muslims don't believe in a "free sex" society based on promiscuity and adultery, like secularists do. Muslims don' believe in legally murdering their own babies, like secularists do. Muslims don't believe in glorifying immoral lifestyles that run rampant like a plague through secular society, like secularists do. Muslims don't believe in putting their own gratification above the morally upright will of God, like secularists do.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

Such as Muslims don't believe in a "free sex" society based on promiscuity and adultery, like secularists do. Muslims don' believe in legally murdering their own babies, like secularists do. Muslims don't believe in glorifying immoral lifestyles that run rampant like a plague through secular society, like secularists do. Muslims don't believe in putting their own gratification above the morally upright will of God, like secularists do.

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Poppycock

Muslim society is too restrictive and is out of step with modern economic realities. In actual Arab countries, there is success in postponing vaginal intercourse, but a growing number of girls are simply finding other alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

Muslim society is too restrictive and is out of step with modern economic realities. In actual Arab countries, there is success in postponing vaginal intercourse, but a growing number of girls.....

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ha ha ha :laugh4: :laugh4:

damn I missed out on that juetz action when last in egypt

having my wife with me wouldntve helped

Whatever people wanna do in the privacy of their homes makes no diff to me - as long as they abide the laws

I dont think our 'way of life' is so wonderful that people need to convert to it if they immigrate. Personally there are large parts of it I would do away with if given the option. As long as their culture/way of life doesnt interfere with how I choose to live mine - I could care less if they want to spend their life believing rubbish and denying themselves stuff so they can be in paradise when they die - for me this now is heaven or hell depending on what we make of it - best enjoy it - although lately things have been looking alot more like Hades than Nirvana.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

Such as Muslims don't believe in a "free sex" society based on promiscuity and adultery, like secularists do. Muslims don' believe in legally murdering their own babies, like secularists do. Muslims don't believe in glorifying immoral lifestyles that run rampant like a plague through secular society, like secularists do. Muslims don't believe in putting their own gratification above the morally upright will of God, like secularists do.

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OK this is the last time (:biker: ) I am going to say this....


Atheism (secularism) is the lack or absence of belief.

It's called thinking for oneself, as a pose to espousing what you have been brainwashed taught to think.

I'm off to bed. :whip:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

OK this is the last time (:biker: ) I am going to say this....


Atheism (secularism) is the lack or absence of belief.

It's called thinking for oneself, as a pose to espousing what you have been brainwashed taught to think.

I'm off to bed. :whip:

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but don't they believe there is no belief system :2thumbsup: :laugh4: ?

Integration isn't all its cracked up to be. Think about where we'd be if the Chinese, Italians, Germans, Irish, and countless others had left their food back in their homelands...no carry out, Pizza, bratwurst. Where would society be?

Secularism is not the same as atheism.

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Originally Posted by JimBob

Integration isn't all its cracked up to be. Think about where we'd be if the Chinese, Italians, Germans, Irish, and countless others had left their food back in their homelands...no carry out, Pizza, bratwurst. Where would society be?

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Mmmm....I crave chinese food 24/7.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Atheism (secularism) is the lack or absence of belief.

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To even think that such a state of existence were possible, as in one without belief, is not only a fundamental misunderstanding of neurology and the nature of thought, but demonstrates an unusually high level of self-delusion.

:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Patriarch of Constantinople

but don't they believe there is no belief system :2thumbsup: :laugh4: ?

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Err...no they don't.

Cheap shots are fine. Just don't miss. :beam:

Well at least they are becomming more honest about it. If the article is meant to be provocative, good job at that, works for me. So, all that's wrong with brittain are brittish values now, funny how it works.

Britain has always been about taking bits of other cultures.

Plus there's a lot of confusion of religion and culture going on at the moment. It's unfortunate, although it does give some groups a useful excuse to carry on medieaval and archaic traditions. Which maintain the status quo... Not that I'm that horribly cynical or anything.

I don't think anyone really believes integration is a one-way street. When two cultures merge, they both exert some degree of influence on each other. Obviously, a minority group of immigrants will have to adapt more to their host country than vice versa.

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Originally Posted by JimBob

Integration isn't all its cracked up to be. Think about where we'd be if the Chinese, Italians, Germans, Irish, and countless others had left their food back in their homelands...no carry out, Pizza, bratwurst. Where would society be?

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That's exactly what I'm talking about. When you immigrate to a new society, proper ettiquette is to bring the positive contributions from your parent culture, while abandoning the harmful components of it. It's reasonable to expect Muslims to leave behind the forced marriages, revenge killing, sexism, etc. from their parent cultures and accept western values such as personal responsibility, liberty, equality, peace, and forgiveness.

Regarding the values espoused by the article's writer, they are broken IMO. It's neurotic to view guilt, shame, and fear as good things (with the obvious exception of healthy fear). Maybe that's why the integration of Muslims into western society looks a bit one-way - it's hard for us westerners to find much in Muslim culture worth emulating. (We have already happily adopted their cuisine.)