Pikeman vs Sword & Shield head to head post 1.02?

I have not really tried to use pikeman in campaign and today i just test them out with custom battle on some S&S units.

I was so surprise even head to head, with a stationary defensive solid setup, the pikeman are chopped into pieces by those S&S unit.

I even tried 2 units of pikemen vs 1 unit of dismounted feudal knight (so they cant "wrap" up my flank), the DFK still outrun them all even at the front of pikeline?? (150 pikemen gone, only 20 DFK is killed....)

I am not sure if this is right any infantry can beat an organised solid pikeline head to head so easily?? :inquisitive:

Not surprising, The pikemen have a penalty to attack VS infantry, they have less attack to begin with, and usually less armour.
A general rule is only use pikemen as infantry if they are upper tier and have maxed out armour upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Moral55

Not surprising, The pikemen have a penalty to attack VS infantry, they have less attack to begin with, and usually less armour.
A general rule is only use pikemen as infantry if they are upper tier and have maxed out armour upgrades.

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Oh, i never know such penalty applied for pikeman, if thats the case in m2tw only? [RTW pikeman works different]

And such penalty make little sense to me in real life situation, other then game play balancing concern.

The most weird thing in m2tw is, in the initial contact, even the swordman didnt touch the pikeman in the animation, their charge still kill all the front rank of the pikeman.... :inquisitive:

pikemen are bugged intentionally but there are ways to get around CAs little tricks.

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Originally Posted by mad cat mech

pikemen are bugged intentionally but there are ways to get around CAs little tricks.

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"bugged" intentionally? It can either be bugged or intended i think?

Sorry if i have missed this bug which might have been discuss before 1.02. (all the major bugs i know is shield and 2h bug)

They changed it to stop scottish pike spam in MP

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Originally Posted by Gaius Terentius Varro

They changed it to stop scottish pike spam in MP

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~:mad ~:mad

They went on the record with this? Cause if they did, and this is in fact the case, I am thoroughly ~:pissed:

Now, if all this is true, please tell me there is a better way to go around this than removing the pikemen's secondary weapons altogether.

all this is speculation because CA ,may the cat and rabbit population overrun their facility, will not divulge to its paying customers whether they intended for the pikes to work like they are or whether they are bugged.:wall:

Well if you can be bothered setting up MTW2 for modding, do so and remove secondary weapons from pikemen. I did this and find them to be much better, albeit not overwhelming. Alternatively you could remove their spear bonus, although since they still seem to love whacking stuff with swords I don't know how much difference it would make.

Never did like using pikemen, given the fact that they lack a shield they are extremely vulnerable to missile attacks.

I thought that´s precisely what´s supposed to happen :dizzy2:
Pikes beat cavalry, cavalry beats swords, swords beat pikes - it makes perfectly sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

I thought that´s precisely what´s supposed to happen :dizzy2:
Pikes beat cavalry, cavalry beats swords, swords beat pikes - it makes perfectly sense to me.

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historically this is not true.

Not just historically, but it is not true by common sense/physic too.

I can understand a skillful S&S can parry the pike, charging in and make himself on the upper hand in close combat.

But in m2tw while the S&S charge in, make contact on the pikehead with their body/sword/shield, they dont even get hurt/killed but this impact somehow kill the man who is holding the pike in a distance!!?? :wall:

I will have no problem if the swordman or any other infantry beat the pikeman in a sensible way. Either they are parrying in or warping up the pike unit on their flank.

As i think one of the essence of TW is a realistic representation on the battle field. Such unrealistic outcome should not be made merely for game play balance.

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Originally Posted by RickooClan

Not just historically, but it is not true by common sense/physic too.

I can understand a skillful S&S can parry the pike, charging in and make himself on the upper hand in close combat.

But in m2tw while the S&S charge in, make contact on the pikehead with their body/sword/shield, they dont even get hurt/killed but this impact somehow kill the man who is holding the pike in a distance!!?? :wall:

I will have no problem if the swordman or any other infantry beat the pikeman in a sensible way. Either they are parrying in or warping up the pike unit on their flank.

As i think one of the essence of TW is a realistic representation on the battle field. Such unrealistic outcome should not be made merely for game play balance.

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Whilst I wouldn't necessarily believe that 'charge' deaths should be biased towards the S&S troops (after all, who wants to charge on to a big pointy stick), think about it...

You have one guy with a really big pole with a point on it and a guy with a sword and shield. Imagine the pole is 6 foot long. How are you supposed to beat a guy with a sword with a 6 foot pole when he's 1 foot from you?

Of course the S&S will win in melee.

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Originally Posted by Lupiscanis

Whilst I wouldn't necessarily believe that 'charge' deaths should be biased towards the S&S troops (after all, who wants to charge on to a big pointy stick), think about it...

You have one guy with a really big pole with a point on it and a guy with a sword and shield. Imagine the pole is 6 foot long. How are you supposed to beat a guy with a sword with a 6 foot pole when he's 1 foot from you?

Of course the S&S will win in melee.

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Still, I think you are overestimating S&S's ability to GET into a melee in the first place. The way the pike formation works, there is three ranks deep of pikes exposed, so it isn't just a pike six feet ahead, it is also a pike a few feet back from that, and another one a few feet back from that.

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Originally Posted by Agent Smith

Still, I think you are overestimating S&S's ability to GET into a melee in the first place. The way the pike formation works, there is three ranks deep of pikes exposed, so it isn't just a pike six feet ahead, it is also a pike a few feet back from that, and another one a few feet back from that.

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and a whole load to the left and right...

In RTW the pikes where more like a physical obstical in the front of the formation of troops and prevented te enemy form reaching them... Only when the enemy wrapped around and squeezed a few men between the pikes did melee combat occur... This made even militia pike troops useful as they could effectly block and pin other non-pike units for a reasonable amount of time even if they did not cause many casualties.

In M2TW this blocking ability seems to have been lost and the troops act more like a group of individuals using pikes rather than a formation. Troops are very quick to stop using the pike and start using their swords.

There was a mod going around that removed the ability to use swords from the pikeman whihc greatly enhanced their effectiveness...

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Originally Posted by Lupiscanis

You have one guy with a really big pole with a point on it and a guy with a sword and shield. Imagine the pole is 6 foot long. How are you supposed to beat a guy with a sword with a 6 foot pole when he's 1 foot from you?

Of course the S&S will win in melee.

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As i have said i can understand S&S can win if they skillfully parry the pike or wrap up the pike unit at the flank. But the way it is presenting in m2tw now is neither of those, the S&S just kill the pikeman head to head, especially in the initial charge which the S&S even didnt contact the pikeman at all! (but their pike)

@Bob the Insane

And i agree with you in RTW the function of pikeman make more sense and even militia pike troop can hold their ground if using correctly.

Honestly without modding i see very little point to use pike unit in m2tw compare with other standard spearman unit. They do a far better job against infantry, higher resistance against arrow with shield, higher mobility, less vulerable on flanks with schiltrom and also good against cavalry! :inquisitive:

And dont forget pike unit are on a higher tech tree compare with standard spearman...... :wall:

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Originally Posted by RickooClan

As i have said i can understand S&S can win if they skillfully parry the pike or wrap up the pike unit at the flank. But the way it is presenting in m2tw now is neither of those, the S&S just kill the pikeman head to head, especially in the initial charge which the S&S even didnt contact the pikeman at all! (but their pike)

@Bob the Insane

And i agree with you in RTW the function of pikeman make more sense and even militia pike troop can hold their ground if using correctly.

Honestly without modding i see very little point to use pike unit in m2tw compare with other standard spearman unit. They do a far better job against infantry, higher resistance against arrow with shield, higher mobility, less vulerable on flanks with schiltrom and also good against cavalry! :inquisitive:

And dont forget pike unit are on a higher tech tree compare with standard spearman...... :wall:

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I don't understand why they couldn't make pike units operate like the phalanx did in RTW. The lack of mobility during spear wall should be countered by the superior frontal defensive capability. You are right, the two negatives make them difficult to use.

The chief advantage of pikemen is their ability to statically protect other units from cavalry. Unlike spearmen their pikes are long enough to guard a 2-rank unit in front of it from a cavalry charge.

This ability is extremely useful when combined with such units as Musketeers and Scots Guards. You would have all-around offensive and defensive ability with this setup, especially if you hotkey each pikemen/missile pair.

If pikemen were also good against S&S infantry, however, it would be too strong. It would basically render heavy cavalry in their traditional roles useless, which from a gameplay balance POV is highly undesirable.

the thing that puzzles me was when i played rome and first saw the phalanxes i said to myself, "they modeled them after medieval descriptions of swiss pike blocks"

the only trully really accurate descriptions of pike blocks come from the middle ages. they are not presented in very good detail at all from ancient pictures.

pike blocks in the middle ages should have 4 ranks lowered instead of two in a melee. 5 ranks lowered when braced instead of three.

battle accounts i have read make no dismissal to the effectiveness of a well ordered pike wall. they were very difficult to break into. often involving heroic deeds of self sacrifice to open a gap.

the romans tactics involved the pilum but also they scouted the enemies line and looked for a place where a boulder or a dip in the terrain weakened the formation. and they would focus their attack there to break into the phalanx.



here is a mtw/vi unit description of pikemen

2.5 Pikemen.



Pikemen are the successors to spearmen, they serve the same function and receive the same rank bonus as the spears ( +1 defence, +1 charge per supporting rank and +1 attack for each second supporting rank) but they can claim up to four supporting ranks. Therefore you should deploy them in ranks of six, one to fight, four to support and the sixth providing men to fill the gaps left by the dead. The supporting ranks mean that pikemen need to hold their formation in order to fight effectively, therefore keep them on hold formation at all times. You should also be careful when moving them, let them stop frequently to recover their formation. You can charge pikes somewhat more effectively than spears, just walk them up in front of the enemy, pause for a second to allow them to redress the ranks and then order the charge from close range. This arrangement allows the unit to take losses without losing the rank bonus too quickly. The need for a deeper deployment means that pikemen can cover less ground per unit as they have the same number of men as the spear units (133), this makes them less efficient for holding a front line. They are also more vulnerable to being flanked as the shorter frontage makes it very easy for enemy units to wrap around the pikes and attack from three sides simultaneously. Pikemen have one major problem – everything they can do another unit can do much better. Spears still provide a better front line troop for protecting missile units and providing a base for mobile units to work from. Polearms are much, much better at killing cavalry and they also have a bonus against armoured units, swords, spears and polearm units are also better for leading the charge into battle and engaging the enemy’s front line while others flank. These units are also less vulnerable to being wrapped in a combat situation.

There is one bonus to their small frontage – they are ideal for holding small spaces like the mouth of a bridge or a castle gate (not breach though, they are usually much larger than the gates) for a long time. They are often able to beat off many determined attacks when given a little missile support.

Pikes are best at: Charging the enemy, holding a position, holding a small space, guarding missile units.


M13
Image M13: This picture shows a unit of pikemen against a unit of spearmen. Both are in their optimal formations (pikes = 6 ranks, spears = 4). This shows just how easy it is for pike formations to get wrapped in combat, it also illustrates why spears are better for building a front line.
https://i155.photobucket.com/albums/...ikesupport.jpg
M14

Image M14: Here is an illustration of the pikes supporting rank bonus in action. Look at the row at the bottom of the screenshot. The first man is doing the actual fighting. The four behind him are in their fighting animations even though they are not near the enemy; this is because they are supporting the first man. The final man at the back is doing nothing, this is because he is the reinforcement rank – he will move in to replace a dead man. Because you can see the supporting ranks working in most of the formation you know that this unit is fighting at its best.

NOTE: the descriptions explaining that they are to fight in 4 to 5 ranks deep.

Of course with MTW this was all an illusion as only the first rank was fighting, but with bonus from the active ranks behind (shown by those rank's animations)...

In RTW and even more so in M2TW it is the individual men fighting, even from the rows further back...

I think Miracle may be right and CA have specifically opted to make pikes vunerable to S&S units...

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Originally Posted by Lupiscanis

Whilst I wouldn't necessarily believe that 'charge' deaths should be biased towards the S&S troops (after all, who wants to charge on to a big pointy stick), think about it...

You have one guy with a really big pole with a point on it and a guy with a sword and shield. Imagine the pole is 6 foot long. How are you supposed to beat a guy with a sword with a 6 foot pole when he's 1 foot from you?

Of course the S&S will win in melee.

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Because the four guys behind you also have poles and are poking at intermittent distances...

Some swordsmen would break up pike formations with sword and buckler, historically, but for the most part, once you had a pike wall the pike wall was dominant until it was slowly fazed out by guns.

I too have been very disapointed by the behaviour of pikemen, I like the way they worked in RTW better. It's supposed to be a situation where if you can't flank, and you can't headbutt them, then you shoot em, and that's why they should have low armour, no shields, etc. But giving them low armour and making them unable to resist a frontal attack? Ridiculous. Just up the price, or make em harder to get if you don't want to spam them.

The thing is making them vulnerable to S&S units is not sensible from a balance perspective. The RPS isn't Pikes beat Cav, Cav beat swords, swords beat Pikes, because it fails totally to take account of 2-handers.


The actual RPS looks something like this, (ignoring pikes):


Cav beat S&S, (with moderate to heavy losses), 2-Handers, (with low losses), and Archers, (with low losses).

Spears beat Cav, (with moderate to low losses).

S&S beat spears and archers, (with low losses).

2-Handers, beat S&S and Spears, (with low losses).

Archers beat 2-handers, (in conjunction with other units as they can rarely kill a whole unit by themselves).



Pikes are supposed to fit in by being nearly untouchable from the front, but extremely weak from the flanks and very vulnerable to missiles.

Here's the above with pikes added in:


Cav beat S&S, (with moderate to heavy losses), 2-Handers, (with low losses), and Archers, (with low losses), Pikes, (from the flank).

Spears beat Cav, (with moderate to low losses), Pikes, (from the flank).

S&S beat spears and archers, (with low losses).

2-Handers, beat S&S and Spears, (with low losses)[B], Pikes, (from the flank)/B] .

Archers beat 2-handers, (in conjunction with other units as they can rarely kill a whole unit by themselves), Pikes.

Pikes beat everything except archers when attacked head on.

the professional late-medieval swiss pikemen were regarded as pretty much unbeatable as long as they held rank, and should be so in the game too.

sword and buckler men would bypass the pike points by rolling under the pikes and entering meelee, but they cant possibly have have suceeded with that tactic on a regular basis, just imagine how hard that move would be to pull of.

therefore, the good pike units should in most cases beat swordsmen front to front. lesser pike militia, with lower cohesion, might be an other matter because they loose formation quicker and allow swordmen to infiltrate the ranks.

game balance is all well and good, but historically, for a while pike reigned the battlefield almost supreme, and should do so in the game too, losing their dominant position first when field arty and gunners are introduced.

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Originally Posted by RickooClan

I was so surprise even head to head, with a stationary defensive solid setup, the pikeman are chopped into pieces by those S&S unit.

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You shouldn't have been surprise...

Historically, and from what I remember from my tabletop wargaming days, S&S units were the perfect antithesis of pikes... Think of how more free of movement a sworsman is compared to a man wielding a 10-foot long pike which could be easily diverted to get to the man behind...

I'd like to see the more professional soldiers performing better because of discipline issues, not stats alone. This is especially important for pike units that rely on unit cohesion a lot. If you bring only pike militia, seeing them switch to swords in melee or being broken up by swordsmen feels realistic. But if you bring higher-tech pikes (Tercio, Aventuros, Scotch what-was-their-names), these should really be impregnable from the front, just because they hold formation better and don't let go of their pikes in a hurry. This system of "performs better because of discipline" could also be tied to unit experience, to make the system more interesting. This is really something I'd like to see! Until then, Carl's ProblemFixer removes a pike unit's swords, which is sufficient to make it worthwhile.

@ Carl

I think i am going to fix the pike issue on my 1.02 game, could you let me know what have you done to fix the pike problem in your fixer mod? If the only thing i have to do is removing the secondary weapon [sword] ? thanks a lot!

I guess without a fixer, even with the full release of 1.2, pike unit which cant even hold their own at front is totally useless imo.

Well, I have somewhat different experiences with the leaked patch.

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Originally Posted by Carl

Cav beat S&S, (with moderate to heavy losses), 2-Handers, (with low losses), and Archers, (with low losses).

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Cav murders swords witht the charge but will not murder high charge 2H units any longer. You are much better of with a high charge 2H unit vs cav than with swords.

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Originally Posted by Carl

Spears beat Cav, (with moderate to low losses).

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With heavy losses if there is a charge, and why would the cav player miss the charge?

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Originally Posted by Carl

S&S beat spears and archers, (with low losses).

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With the leaked pacth S&S beats most inf with ease.

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Originally Posted by Carl

2-Handers, beat S&S and Spears, (with low losses).

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Well, depends on the 2H unit. Some will lose to standard S&S like DCK.

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Originally Posted by Carl

Pikes are supposed to fit in by being nearly untouchable from the front, but extremely weak from the flanks and very vulnerable to missiles.

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Supposed to, but they are not, that is why people complain.

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Originally Posted by Carl

Pikes beat everything except archers when attacked head on.

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Well, this is does not hold any longer with the leaked patch. DCK beats up any pikes head on with ease. This is, why people, including OP complains. However, IMO pikes were not nerfed (in any way), it is the effect of the shield fix, S&S inf are much stronger overall.

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Cav murders swords with the charge but will not murder high charge 2H units any longer. You are much better of with a high charge 2H unit vs Cav than with swords.

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It depends on the Cav type. Feudal knights vs. DCK will see the S&S inflict heavy losses. the charge 8 stuff just rolls over them.

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With heavy losses if there is a charge, and why would the Cav player miss the charge?

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Remember i play my Problem Fixer, which like Lusted's LTC incorporates a few additional changes, something Lusted at least appears to be pushing CA towards. in both LTC and the ProblemFixer mods the Cav vs. spears balance is exactly what the adviser suggests it should be. Generally if you charge Cav into spears head on you'll get the first 2 ranks of spears, but it will cost you your front rank of Cav and sometimes parts of your second rank, (assuming a 3 deep spears vs. 2 deep Cav).

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Well, depends on the 2H unit. Some will lose to standard S&S like DCK.

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DCK aren't stock, their elite high end. Byzantine infantry/swordsmen militia are more the mid range, (their isn't a low range till you fix the light_spear bug). and even vs. DCK most 2-hander units will still do very high damage for their price, on price they beat S&S senseless.

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Supposed to, but they are not, that is why people complain.

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AND

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Well, this is does not hold any longer with the leaked patch. DCK beats up any pikes head on with ease. This is, why people, including OP complains. However, IMO pikes were not nerfed (in any way), it is the effect of the shield fix, S&S inf are much stronger overall.

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I know that, the entire second piece is how it SHOULD be, not how it actually is.

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but will not murder high charge 2H units any longer. You are much better of with a high charge 2H unit vs Cav than with swords.

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Thats the effects of the mass drop talking I expect, bad idea on CA's part as it's barely effected Cav charges against the units they beat up before, but it's made 2-handers way overpowered. they are SUPPOSED to be countered by Cav. That the point of their low defense, everything that has low defense and isn't pikes is supposed to be murdered by Cav.

Certainly with just an animation fix in place and foz's shield fix the 2-handers get murdered and it's a balance both myself and lusted, (based on the fact that he hasn't changed anything with 2-hander to make them more Cav resistant), have found to work well in general.


Generally whatever lusted tends to find works is a good indicator of what direction he'll be trying to push CA in and he seems to be having some success at this so in time I expect them to match up.

Take away their swords.