Estonia's Decision to Remove Soviet WWII Monument Sparks Protest

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...eut/index.html

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TALLINN, Estonia (Reuters) -- Estonia spirited away the controversial statue of a Red Army Soviet soldier from the Centrex of the capital in the early hours on Friday after violent riots against its removal in which one man was killed.

Russia reacted furiously to the move and its upper house of parliament voted to ask President Vladimir Putin to sever relations with the small Baltic state.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow would "take serious steps" against Estonia, Russian news agencies reported.

The statue was taken away in the early hours after the worst violence seen in years in Estonia, including vandalism and looting by mainly Russian-speaking protesters.

"The aim of the government decision was to avoid further possible actions against the public order," Estonia's government said in a statement.

Russia, which has had troubled ties with Estonia since it won independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, has protested against the plan to move the World War Two monument as an insult to those who fought fascism. It has also angered local Russian-speakers, a large minority of around 300,000 in the country of 1.3 million.

Estonians tend to view it as a reminder of 50 years of Soviet occupation.

"Yet again, we can qualify the actions of official Tallinn as sacrilegious and inhuman ...," Interfax news agency quoted Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin as saying. "We are working to formulate a concrete reaction towards what has happened," he added.

He said the move was harsh ahead of the May 9 anniversary of the end of World War Two, a popular public holiday in Russia.

By mid-morning the area around the statue was calm and traffic was flowing freely. Estonia said the statue was now somewhere under police control. People continued to clean up the streets and windows in many residential and office buildings nearby were smashed.
Russian anger

The vote by Russia's upper house of parliament on severing diplomatic ties with Estonia reflected Moscow's anger.

"We've seen enough of this mocking the dead and scoffing at the victory in World War Two," Russian news agencies quoted Federation Council Speaker Sergei Mironov as telling the chamber.

The senators then backed the non-binding decision. Mikhail Margelov, head of the foreign relations committee at the Federation Council, said the events in Tallinn showed that "the war against fascism did not end on May 9, 1945."

"This fight goes on and it will continue as long as there are grave-diggers who are ready to throw out from the graves those who defeated fascism," he told Russian television.

The violence came amid strong feelings about the 2-meter (6 1/2 ft) high bronze statue of a World War Two Red Army soldier, set in a large stone wall in a park, which was erected in 1947.

The government said one man died in the disturbances, which began after more than 1,000 people gathered to protest on Thursday, after being stabbed in the subsequent violence.

The government said 44 of the protesters and 13 police were injured and 300 people were arrested. Looters smashed windows, fires were started and cars overturned.

Estonia has said the monument is a public order problem as it attracts Estonian and Russian nationalists. It has also said it is more respectful to the dead to be buried in a cemetery.

The authorities had fenced off the area around the monument and the statue itself and erected a long white tent as they prepared to dig for the remains of any soldiers.

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I have mixed feelings about this. Part of sees this as a bad idea because you it really isn't a good idea to piss off the Russians if you are Estonia. Part of me also says it is good because it shows that Estonia has enough guts to do so.

I say let them piss off the ruskis. 50 years of Soviet occupation is a long time. Anyway, now that they are in NATO, you guys can always ride to the rescue, ala 7th cavalry, if Putin gets his sabre out.

It's their country, they can do what they want. It's got bugger all to do with Moscow.

Just my tuppenth worth.

Does Estonia even need Russia? I was under the impression that they were one of the "Baltic Tigers" whose economy was growing rapidly.

Gas supplies? I imagine they need them as well as the rest of Europe. And since when have (European) NATO had the guts to do anything apart from argue?

It has only been moved elsewhere, not scrapped, so no biggie.

~:smoking:

Monument should stay, screw post-war resistance heroes. It's for dead soldiers not for politicians.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

And since when have (European) NATO had the guts to do anything apart from argue?
~:smoking:

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Afghanistan.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

Does Estonia even need Russia?

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Yes, if they wish to recieve thier natural gas.

"Gazprom is also increasingly becoming an owner of natural gas utilities in the Baltic region. Gazprom holds a 25% stake in Latvia's Latvian Gaze and a 37% stake in Estonia's Eesti Gaas (along with other major foreign shareholders, Germany's Ruhrgas and Finland's Fortum). Most recently, in January 2004, Gazprom finalized its acquisition of a 34% stake in Lithuania's natural gas company, Lietuvos Dujos. With the three Baltic states scheduled to join the European Union in May 2004, Gazprom's growing influence in the Baltics could serve as a staging ground for greater exports to the countries of the European Union." Source

the baltics are major distribution points for energy from Russia, both via the sea and pipeline.

Other then national intrests (of Estonia) I dont see how this helps them diplomatically.

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Monument should stay, screw post-war resistance heroes. It's for dead soldiers not for politicians.

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One mans hero is another mans army of occupation. Screw the Russians. All this over a stinking statue? Imagine if they had burned Russian flags.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

One mans hero is another mans army of occupation. Screw the Russians. All this over a stinking statue? Imagine if they had burned Russian flags.

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Living in the USSR wasn't nice, but do you think a prolonged German occupation would have been any better? I agree with Frag on this one.

If the monument is seen as a sanctuary for certain extremists they should crack down on those instead of trying to remove the symptons.

Can't really see why they want to do this.... The Red Army was made up of Estonians as well... Kinda looks like they want to spit at their own citizen who fought and died in ww2...

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Living in the USSR wasn't nice, but do you think a prolonged German occupation would have been any better? I agree with Frag on this one.

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Whats the difference. Brutal occupation is brutal occupation. I guess we better put that statue of Saddam back up. Look these people dont look at the Russian soldiers of WW2 as liberators. And in that view they are correct. People burn american flags everyday yet we dont sanction them for it. Big deal they moved a statue that was errected by anothor nation on thier soil. They have the perfect right to.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Whats the difference. Brutal occupation is brutal occupation. I guess we better put that statue of Saddam back up. Look these people dont look at the Russian soldiers of WW2 as liberators. And in that view they are correct. People burn american flags everyday yet we dont sanction them for it. Big deal they moved a statue that was errected by anothor nation on thier soil. They have the perfect right to.

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It's a statue commemorating soldiers who died over 50 years ago, pure and simple. Of course they have every right to remove it, though that doesn't mean I agree with the decision itself. The Estonians share their country with a sizable Russian minority, what good is this going to do?

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Originally Posted by Fenring

It's a statue commemorating soldiers who died over 50 years ago, pure and simple.

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isnt it also a burial site for war dead?

thats whats put me off to it (if thats true) I dont care how people run thier affairs but why move a memorial to war dead and exhume thier bodies in the process? That seems real antagonistic to me.

Great news!

They should replace it with a statue of a German soldier, representing the thousands that fought and died with the Estonians trying to wipe communism off the face of the earth.

http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/far...vents_0101.jpg

:dizzy2:

Why would Russia care about the statue, it's not like they're Soviets anymore.
I mean if I was the leader of Russia I would try to get rid of everything that had anything to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Xehh II

Why would Russia care about the statue, it's not like they're Soviets anymore.
I mean if I was the leader of Russia I would try to get rid of everything that had anything to do with it.

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Just as well you are not, then.
Putin has proclaimed that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a disaster for his
country, has he not? Distancing wouldn't be foremost on the agenda, and rightly
so.

The statue should've stayed; as a memorial it's only right that it remain
undisturbed.

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Originally Posted by rdeče.jabolko

Just as well you are not, then.
Putin has proclaimed that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a disaster for his
country, has he not? Distancing wouldn't be foremost on the agenda, and rightly
so.

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Why was it a disaster? It would've been the best thing to happen to them.

The way it happened was a complete disaster...
And to Panzerjager: you are just confused... And the german uniforms looked stupid.

Anyways I would just like to say that millions of Red Army soldiers fought and died in WWII, a good deal of them were not Russian, it is not their fault that their bravery was used to enslave countries rather than liberate them. They deserve to be remembered, perhaps for that reason.

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Originally Posted by Randarkmaan

... And the german uniforms looked stupid.

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Ooh . . . careful!

Them's is fightin' words with PJ around. :hmg:

Ajax

edit: I vote they donate the statue to 'Stalin World' in Lithuania.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_World

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And to Panzerjager: you are just confused... And the german uniforms looked stupid.

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I believe most people find the German uniforms of WW2 to be their favorites.

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Anyways I would just like to say that millions of Red Army soldiers fought and died in WWII, a good deal of them were not Russian, it is not their fault that their bravery was used to enslave countries rather than liberate them. They deserve to be remembered, perhaps for that reason.

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What reason is that? Russia was no better than Germany in WW2 if not worse. If the germans had erected a statue to their war dead in France would you complain if the French took it down?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Can't really see why they want to do this.... The Red Army was made up of Estonians as well... Kinda looks like they want to spit at their own citizen who fought and died in ww2...

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You jest? Estonia attempted to remain neutral as I recall - but, were invaded by the Nazis. A friend of mines Mom is Estonian (was), her father was a German General that was "purged" for his involvement in the first assassination attempt on Hitler. The Nazis then went after his family - the King of Sweden rescued her step-Mom and step-sister (she was at school) - they git them to Switzerland. She on the other hand was captured and sent to a concentration work camp. After the war, the Soviets invaded Estonia (which had proclaimed their independence) and sent her and a majority of the populace to work camps. The Soviets then replaced the populace with their loyalists. That is who the 300,000 russian speaking populace is - the decendents of the Soviet invaders.

I had a friend in the army that was Lithuanian - he said the Lithuanians in that country today (1968) are Russians - the Lithuanians were enmass walked off to Soviet work (concentration) camps. That was the Stalin plan throughout Eastern and Western Europe, to replace the indigenous populaces with Russians. Look what happened in Poland and Hungry when the populations revolted.

The Koreans tore down every Jap pagoda, war memorial, and building that reminded them of their occupation. Why not in Estonia? Or, anywhere.

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What reason is that? Russia was no better than Germany in WW2 if not worse. If the germans had erected a statue to their war dead in France would you complain if the French took it down?

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I'm not saying that they were better or worse, though honestly I would say the Germans were worse, though I would have preferred neither, who would want to have their country occupied anyway? What I was trying to say was that we can remember if, if we want, how many brave peoples' lives have been wasted.

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That is who the 300,000 russian speaking populace is - the decendents of the Soviet invaders.

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So what? They live there now. It's just as with the Israelis; most of them now are not the occupiers who drove the Palestinians away, but people born in the country.

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What I was trying to say was that we can remember if, if we want, how many brave peoples' lives have been wasted.

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Being brave for a bad reason dosent make you a hero. The point is this is a statue dedicated to occupiers. How can you blame the Estonians for wanting it gone? Im sure there are lots of statues to brave english soldiers erected in Scotland and Ireland :laugh4: How about a nice staue of Longshanks in the middle of Glassgow?

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Being brave for a bad reason dosent make you a hero.

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No, but it doesen't mean they should be forgotten.

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No, but it doesen't mean they should be forgotten

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Let the Russians remember them in Russia then. Why should the people of Estonia want to honor an invader?

Good point, but not all Soviet soldiers were Russian, and there are some Russians in Estonia. But lets leave it at that, they've taken away the statue now and the Russians are pissed. Good for them that they are in NATO, but then again they are dependent on Russian gas.

Anyway as in many situations like this, I would suggest a compromise, but I do not know what kind of compromise.

.... maybe return the statue so that the Russians may honor their fallen heros from the "Great Patriotic War."

The preferences of 300k ethnic Russians will not outvote those of the 1M ethnic Estonians. Estonia could have been more "politic" as to process, however.

I walked in front of the Dublin P.O. and saw no monument to the British soldiers who took it from the rebels in 1916. The Irish, apparently, do not feel the need for one.

There is a monument marking the burial spot of T.J. Jackson's arm which the government of the USA has not felt the need to remove.

Guess it's up to the locals.

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Im sure there are lots of statues to brave english soldiers erected in Scotland and Ireland

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:dizzy2:
As it happens there are.....so your point was ???????

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As it happens there are.....so your point was ???????

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The ones who invaded these countries? Would Britain sanction them if they removed them? Or are you all British citizens and subject to their rule? Who exactly are the Britains nowdays anyway. Its all so confusing. As has been said earlier. Its up to the locals , and in this case they clearly didnt want the statue there any longer. They dont want to honor them and its their country. It shows who was the real god guys in WW2. Even the French havent thrown out our memorials and still honor the allied soldiers who died LIBERATING their nation. They can be thankful they werent "liberated" by the Russsians.