Best in class - by faction

I was preparing for a stint in a HRE PBM and looked at the unit stats. It occurred to me that there were only a handful of units (available circa 1200) that were worth considering recruiting.

Specifically for HRE:

Spears (anti-cav inf) - armoured spearmen
Swords (anti-inf inf) - dismounted feudal knights
Horse - Teutons
Missiles - pavisse crossbowmen

I wonder if it would be useful to compile similar lists for other factions? A kind of "best in class" analysis. This is party to guide gameplay (which is why I was doing it), but also to think about balancing. For example, it is fine for pavisse crossbowmen to be the "ultimate" missile unit for HRE (pre-gunpowder at least) as they are top of their tech tree. But it is odd to have DFKs at the top, as they make later units types (Zweihanders, Forlorn Hope, Imperials, Gothics) seem rather redundant. Teutons are marginal, as at least they are rationed by presence of the Guild, but ideally I would hope the Gothics were better.

There might be a case for some faster cavalry to chase fleeing generals - I'd plump for mailed knights or, for real fast cav, mounted crossbows (although they are not available in our PBM as of 1200).

For England, circa 1200, my list would be:

Spears - mercenary spears
Swords - armoured swords (DEK as optional flankers)
Horse - Hospitallers (or Templars)
Missiles - retinue longbowmen

From a "balance" point of view, this list seems less problematic than the HRE one - although armoured swords are probably a little too cost-effective given their upkeep, so the DEK are indeed just optional.

It's a bit sad from a diversity point of view, that despite having around 30 units a piece available, a HRE vs England match-up leads to top of the line armies that consist of what are essentially the same three melee units [vis (1) armoured/merc spears; (2) DFK/AS; and (3) crusader knights], with the only real difference being the longbow vs pavise distinction.

Anyone who has played other factions want to say what units they would include in their top of the line army? (Byz seem to have the biggest internal balance issue - 20 vards perhaps being optimal).

Egypt

Spears — Saracen Militia
Swords — Hashishim
Horse (Melee) — Royal Mamluks (I should give you some grief, econ21, for leaving out missile cav.:whip: )
Missiles (Foot) — Naffatun; (Desert Archers are more readily avalible, however)
Missiles (Horse) — Mamluk Archers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

I should give you some grief, econ21, for leaving out missile cav.:whip:

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Good catch. :embarassed: I was being very parochial - they are just not available for England and HRE in my games around 1200, which is about as much as I've experienced.

Well, I have hired Turcopoles, but I confess I've not got much joy out of them. They seem to have very low life expectancy vs Egyptian armies.

For Spain :

Best Spears : Almughavars. They give you that Brutii feeling :)
Best Swords : DFKs, what else ?
Best Cav : Santiagos
Best HAs : JINETEEEES !
Missile : Pavise Crossbows ? Dunno really, usually Jinetes are enough

For the Danes :

Best Spears : Mercenaries (like the Brits, the Danes don't get spears at all, save for the militia)
Best Swords : either Dismounted Huscarls or Norse Swordsmen (which are somewhat inferior to DFKs, but much, much cheaper both to buy and maintain) depending on what you're facing. Axes against knights, Swords against Spears.
Best Cav : religious order (Warpriests can give a good account of themselves against other heavy cav and footknights, but they're difficult to get/maintain)
Best HAs : Crusade mercs from Turkey (can't remember the name, was it Turcopoles ?)
Missile : Norse Archers. Sure, their bows suck like a black hole, but they fight hand-to-hand as well as Norse Swords do, so who cares ? In fact, most of my armies are composed mainly of those, which may or may not be grossly overpowered :sweatdrop:

If you are playing a fixed game econ, DFK are quickly redundant.
Zweihanders, Forlorn Hope, Imperials, Gothics are certainly not at all redundant in a fixed game.

All my recommendations are based on 1.20 + Carl's Fixer 1.14 OR any other combination of fixes and stat rebalance. Most will apply to vanilla 1.20 as well. Except for the assault/anti cavalry class. I will classify by period. These periods represent your military development rather than a specific date.

If anyone wants a reason for these choices, just ask.

ENGLAND
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/...land_SigL3.jpg

EARLY
Cavalry: Mailed Knights.
Missile: Longbowmen_Chain Mail.
Artillery: Ballistae.
Assault/Anti Cavalry: Billmen_Heavy Mail.
Swords: Dismounted Feudal Knights.
Spears: Spear Militia_Padded.

HIGH
Cavalry: Knights Hospitaller.
Missile: Longbowmen_Chain Mail, Sherwood Forresters.
Artillery: Ballistae, Trebuchet.
Assault/Anti Cavalry: Heavy Billmen_Heavy Mail.
Swords: Armored Swordsmen.
Spears: Spear Militia_Heavy Mail.

LATE
Cavalry: Knights Hospitaller, English Knights_Plate.
Missile: Retinue Longbowmen_Chain Mail, Sherwoood Forresters.
Artillery: Ballistae, Trebuchet.
Assault/Anti Cavalry: Dismounted English Knights_Plate.
Swords: Armored Swordsmen_Plate.
Spears: Spear Militia_Heavy Mail.

GUNPOWDER
Cavalry: Knights Hospitaller, English Knights_Plate.
Missile: Retinue Longbowmen_Chain Mail, Sherwoood Forresters, Arqbusiers.
Artillery: Mortar, Culverin.
Assault/Anti Cavalry: Dismounted English Knights_Plate.
Swords: Armored Swordsmen_Plate.
Spears: Spear Militia_Heavy Mail.

Hmmm my personal choices for several factions would be in 1.02 (up until before gunpowder):

HRE:
Spears (anti-cav inf) - Armoured sergeants
Swords (anti-inf inf) - Dismounted imperial knights
Horse - Teutonic knights
Missiles - Pavise crossbowmen

England:
Spears - Levy spearmen
Swords - Armoured swordsmen
Horse - English knights
Missiles - Retinue longbowmen

France:
Spears - Voulgier
Swords - Dismounted feudal knights
Horse - Noble knights
Missiles - Scots guard

Sicily:
Spears - Armoured spearmen
Swords - Dismounted norman knights
Horse - Norman knights
Missiles - Muslim archers

Egypt:
Spears - Dismounted arab cavalry
Swords - Tabardariyya
Horse - Arab cavalry (IMO better than royal mamluks in most combats, plus retrainable anywhere)
Missiles - Naffatun

All my recommendations are based on 1.20 + Carl's Fixer 1.14 OR any other combination of fixes and stat rebalance. Most will apply to vanilla 1.20 as well. Except for the assault/anti cavalry class. I will classify by period. These periods represent your military development rather than a specific date. If anyone wants a reason for these choices, just ask.

HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/.../HRE_SigL1.jpg

EARLY
Cavalry: Mailed Knights.
Missile: None.
Artillery: Ballistae.
Assault/Anti Cavalry: Halberd Militia_Chain Mail.
Swords: Dismounted Feudal Knights.
Spears: Spear Militia_Padded.

HIGH
Cavalry: Teutonic Knights.
Missile: Crossbow Militia_Chain Mail.
Artillery: Ballistae, Trebuchet.
Assault: Zweihander.
Anti-Cavary/Assault Support: Mounted Imperial Knights, Halberd Militia_Heavy Mail.
Swords: Dismounted Feudal Knights.
Spears: Sargeant Spearmen_Heavy Mail.

LATE
Cavalry: Teutonic Knights.
Missile: Pavise Crossbowmen_Chain Mail.
Artillery: Ballistae, Trebuchet.
Assault: Dismounted Gothic Knights.
Anti-Cavalry/Assault Support: Mounted Gothic Knights, Zweihander.
Swords: None.
Spears: Armored Sargeants_Heavy Mail.

GUNPOWDER
Cavalry: Teutonic Knights.
Missile Cavalry: Reiters.
Missile: Arqbusiers.
Anti Personnel Artillery: Serpentine.
Heavy Artillery/Anti Personnel Artillery Support: Basilisk.
Assault: Dismounted Gothic Knights, Folorn Hope.
Anti Cavalry/Assault Support: Mounted Gothic Knights, Zweihander.
Swords: None.
Spears: None.
Pikemen: Pike Militia.

:hijacked: BTW Sinan, what does "Ruhm ehre Vaterland" mean ? I know "Vaterland" means "home" (well, "the land of our fathers" really), so I assumed it meant "for our homeland !", but "our" would be "unsere" or something like that wouldn't it ? (I never could get the hang of German declensions)

Plus of course, the sentence lacks its usual German ending : "wird geworden werden zu sein gewerden haben" :laugh4::sweatdrop: :hijacked:

ROFL !!! LMFAO !!!

Ruhm = Honneur = Honor
Ehre = Célèbre/Fameux (sp?) / Renomeé = Renown/Fame
Vaterland = Pays = Fatherland

Hey Kobal can you post some replays here s.t.p ?

:inquisitive: Nearly correct:

Ruhm = Fame
Ehre = Honor
Vaterland = Fatherland

Byzantines

Spear: Dismounted lankiton
Sword: Byz inf/varangian (former for defensive operations, the later for aggressive)
Cav: vards
Missile: Byz guard archers (<< excellent melee infantry too)

Russia is tricky, cos they have a pretty different unit roster to most other factions.

Spear.... um... it'll have to be bog standard spearmen i guess, since there isnt much else to choose from. Not that i ever actually use them.
Sword... um... there arent any :grin:
Missile Inf : Dismounted Dvor
Melee Inf : Dismounted Dvor :wink:
Missile Cav : Dvor :wink: :wink:
Heavy Cav : Tsars Guard
Shock Troops : Berdiche Axemen

I should also put in a word for boyar sons, who are astoundingly powerful early on, especially for taking out enemy heavy cav / bodyguards.

And for kazakhs, who are crap on paper but very cheap and actually very useful missile cav.

And woodsmen, who are the cheapest unit in the game, yet have 13AP attack +4 charge bonus.

I love playing russia.

Order of Knights Templar (Stainless Steel 3.2)

Knights Hospitallers
Turkopoles
Dismounted Knights Hospitallers
Swiss Guards
Muslim Archers
Arquebuisers

that lineup owns all :D:lol:

For the Byz:

Spear: N/A (Castle level spears same as militia)
Sword: Fully upgraded Dis. Byz. Lancers. ; Dis. Latinkon if unupgraded.
Archers: Byz. Guard Archers
Shock Troops: Varangs!!!!!!!
Heavy Horse: Kataphractoi (Latinkons charge better, but Kataphracts live longer)
Missile Horse: Vardariotai, of course!!!!!
Gunpowder: ...

Does anyone use Gothic Knights for any particular reason if they have the Teutonic Knights? I just wanted to know if I could employ them to any use since I think they look pretty cool and have an awesome name. ;)

Not with 1.02 as pre-patch, non shielded units (i.e. gothics) were much more powerful than shielded ones.

where do you find m2tw save files to pbem?

edit

I think missile weapons and artillery for the most part ramp up the tech tree decently (except perhaps for those laser-guided APFSDS ballistas), spears to pikes are pretty okay as well, but heavy infantry and cavalry (light, heavy and missile) are where basic DFKs and mailed knights can take care of your needs for the entire game, which is disappointing as some of the coolest late-era units can be found in these two categories.

I made the same observations.

1. Any faction that has MK and DFK, does'nt need to upgrade any further in swords or heavy cavalry.
2. There is no great incentive to climb the tech ladder for these factions because their fundamental MK & DFK if correctly deployed will rack experience and will be gold chevrons (easily) by the time the high end late era arrives.
3. This makes those fancy later units less important to the game.
4. The AI armies need some encouragement (money scripts, gifts, campaign scripts etc) in order to successfully tech up. It happens but not frequently enough to warrant DGK, GK or any other top end unit being employed by the player.
5. The top end units are green, whereas your base units are gold. Lot of work to get there and little incentive to disband.

One solution I would suggest is that base units like MK be themselves upgradable to other units, for example.

ENGLAND
EARLY HIGH LATE
MK -> FK -> EK
DFK -> BW -> AS

BW = Black Watch.

I inserted this unit to have an inbetween unit corresponding to each era. You can insert anything, Queen's Queers, Leicester Lampoons ... Dismounted Guards... whatever. This way there is an incentive to upgrade. You can still recruit the lower level units if you really want to but can also convert the unit itself, retaining it's experience. You could make it applicable only to select units as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpaceUnion

Does anyone use Gothic Knights for any particular reason if they have the Teutonic Knights? I just wanted to know if I could employ them to any use since I think they look pretty cool and have an awesome name. ;)

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Well they could be considered better at a base level on paper (due to having armor instead of shield points and thus better all-around protection even if 1 point weaker in the front), but it doesn't really pan out. They share the same attack numbers, both primary and secondary, and the same great AP secondary attack. Any doubt that Teutonic Knights are better is erased by their earlier upgrade levels and longer upgrade series, which will end up giving them about the same base armor level, plus their shield on top. GKs are no slouches though, and if you enjoy seeing them there's really no harm in recruiting them just because they look cool. They're still vastly superior to any other heavy cav you can recruit save Teutons.

One other thing to consider is your ability to retrain. As your faction expands you simply aren't going to inherit Teutonic guilds, so retraining those guys becomes more and more prohibitive. You may, however, inherit King's Stables and be able to retrain GKs at the front line. Even if you do not, you can always build the stables there and use them as retraining stations. The ability to retrain at the front instead of running back home for 10 turns can be invaluable and shouldn't be simply written off. You'll also want a swordsmiths guild somewhere as it gives a faction bonus to heavy cav, so I figure since Teutonics won't be available in that settlement, it might as well crank out some Gothic Knights instead, even if just for your pleasure and some army variety. It's no fun to look at a clone army.

You can also send your TKs over there for a melee upgrade if you are so inclined. Not that they really need to do any more damage than their already-sick stats allow...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921

where do you find m2tw save files to pbem?

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Check the PBEM Forum. (<-Link)

Russia
Cavalry: Tsar's Guard. Nothing beats these guys in my book.
Missile Cavalry: Cossack Cavalry. The only reason I picked them over the Dvor was because of Cossacks' mobility advantage.
Missile Infantry: Dismounted Dvor, definitley.
Infantry: Berdiche Axemen with the 1.02 patch. For cost effectiveness, however, I might go with the woodsmen.
Spears: Spearmen, the Rus' only weakness for all eras.

Building upon what Foz has said, I think it's important to include other characteristics besides in-game stats into the definition of "best." The best units should perform well in each of the categories below:

• Combat Ability - ability to receive and deal damage
• Versatility and Adaptability - ability to attack different types of units with moderate to high proficiency and doing so in most terrain conditions
• Training and Upkeep Cost
• Building and Technology Requirements
• Upgradabilty and Potential Exp Bonuses - what level armor the unit can be upgraded to and how easy it is for its faction to provide exp from guilds and buildings
• Unit Size and Hitpoints
• Range, Ammo and Accuracy (if applicable)
• Special Abilities
• Marching and Running Speed
• Morale, Stamina, Discipline and Training
• Recruitment Pool and Replenishment Rate
• Aesthetics - hey it's gotta look cool, right?

Examples:

What is the best Spanish swordsmen unit?

Answer: Swordsmen Militia. SM retain 75%-85% of the combat ability of DFK's while requiring 70% of the training cost and only 0%-44% of the upkeep cost. Since army upkeep is normally the biggest part of the expenses, this is a big deal. They require large city-level militia drill squares to build, which are more plentiful in the high/late eras than fortresses (most players have more cities than castles). In addition, wealthy, sea-accessible regions like Italy and Britain tend to have very well-developed cities making retraining SM easier. SM can be upgraded to heavy mail which gives +2 armor as opposed to the +1 from DFK's partial plate. On the downside, SM's may rout sooner against cavalry charges and tire more quickly in extended melees than DFK, but the former is avoidable and the latter is negligible.

What HA are better, Byzantine Vardariotai or Egyptian Mamluk Archers?

Answer: This may be surprising but I believe Mamluk Archers are better. The chief reason why is spammability. Vards are limited to a recruitment pool of two units at castles and three at fortresses. Upgrading to citadel walls and the stables line does nothing to increase the pool. In contrast Mamluk Archers' pool can be increased from citadel walls, the stables line and Sultan's Racing Tracks in cities. So it becomes far easier to spam MA, especially in High/Late. MA's combat abilities are still quite formidable compared to Vards so you're not losing out too much. It's also offset somewhat because it's far easier for Egypt to obtain a Horse Breeder's Guild HQ than Byzantium. Price is not an issue because both Egypt and Byzantium can hold very rich cities and resources early on. MA are slower than Vards but their bow range makes that less important. So the question comes down to, would you rather have one Vard and one Byzantine Cavalry, or two Mamluk Archers with exp? The choice becomes obvious.

Polish army before you hit Citadels and gunpowder:

20 Polish nobles. No need for anything else at all, although you could throw in some order knights for fun.

The problem is the quality of DFK. The next in line, chivalric knights, require way more expensive buildings and only gives 1 additional armor. For something that has 21 total defense, 1 additional armor is pretty pathetic. Morale is the same, attack is the same, charge is the same, etc. I forgot the stat of mailed knights but I think there's more improvement there. Another problem I saw with western factions is that almost all the knights units past mailed knights are similar. There isn't much variety.

That's true, more differentiation might be good.

Hungarian DCK actually have inferior stats to DFK, if there isn't something I've overlooked - this might be due to armor upgrades being available earlier or something like that. However, DCK seem to perform better than DFK as far as I have found. Maybe there is some hidden variable entering into the equation as well. Also, DCK have slightly less upkeep... for what it's worth.

I'll try a list for Hungary:
Swordsmen: DCK
Spearmen: Pavese Spearman
Foot Missile: Pavese Crossbow Militia
Heavy Cavalry: Hospitaller Knights / Royal Banderium
Missile Cavalry: Hungarian Nobles
Artillery: Basilisk (Serpentine vs. troops)

FactionHeir:

I agree with the remarks about Arab Cavalry being retrainable everywhere, but can't agree about dismounted Arab Cavalry as being the best spears:

1. The dismounted cav only have 60 men (normal) compared to Saracens' 75, and 1 point less armor. This makes them much more vulnerable to missile fire. More men get killed and there are fewer to start with.

2. Maintenance cost for DAC is 150. Maintenance cost for Saracens can be as low as 0 and no higher than 155, depending on location.

3. Morale and training stats are the same, although DAC suffer less in the heat.

4. Saracen Infantry can form schiltron.

On the other hand, DAC have the same advantage as AC -- you can build them anywhere.

It's close, but I still have to give the prize to Saracens.

I was thinking about that shortly after I posted the list but didn't edit my post. Its quite a close call.