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Currently as the English, I deploy Billmen behind the spearmen as the defence sucks in the same line as armoured swordsmen and DFK. An I doing it right or is there a better right. As a note, they're not as good as their MTW1 couterparts.( once played late part of campaign using only them as infantry).
Don't expect billmen to hold your line for long. I usually deploy them behind archers when defending. Longbowmen stakes usually soften the blow of a cavalry charge sufficiently for my billment to step in and mop up while archers are reforming.
Billmen will not last in the open field though (just check their defence...) and if I cannot hide them behind stakes, I use them solely as flankers, main body of my army then formed of archers + spears right behind them.
Dunno, seems like you're right, billmen shone much brighter in MTW, but then again I haven't had pleasure with M2TW's heavy billmen yet, they may be a bit tougher and better suited for front line service.
Drogba,
I too remember the billmen in MTW1 - wow those guys should have had superhero capes & wore their pants on the outside - they rocked.
For me, as a billman fan, they are a real let down in MTW2 & I hardly use them. I just find that whatever job you want them for, there is another unit which is either better or more cost effective.
Henri
Not to mention their Billhook is tiny and stupid looking, what's the deal with that. Then they have that stupid 'hit them in the legs and they flip' animation ugh.
Oh, one more thing, can anyone confirm whether they have anti-cav bonus or not? A unit of mamluk archers ploughed through 2 units of billmen, no charge, just melee and my silly bill-brandishing children didn't seem to do them much harm at all. Is it meant to be like this and if so - back to the original question - what is their use in M2TW if they have any?
Billmen simply aren't very effective. Their main use is as anti-armor troops on the flank of an already pinned unit. For example if the enemy has armored swordsmen and you have only billmen and spears you let the AS engage your spears and push the billmen in on a flank.
Billmen's defense value is very low relative to professionial infantry, so any unit which hits them head on is probably going to plow right through them. Cavalry head on will simply wipe them out. If you can get them on a flank against a pinned enemy, however, they can slowly chew their way through heavily armored targets.
Personally I'd rather have more spears and archers than any billmen.
:egypt:
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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP
Exactly the way I see it, I never train many and the ones I do train are used for flanking duty. Their AP attack makes them useful for flanking and General killing but not much else.
EDIT: Would you rather have a unit of Billmen or Dismounted English Knights on the flanks?
That's why I don't train Billmen.
In a full stack, I will have a couple of units of billmen for old time's sake. They are good at killing armored units if those armored units can be engaged from the front by something else first. So like others, I use them for flanking, like cheap, slow cavalry.
Their weapon is supposed to be the bill-hook, but the "bill" part seems to be missing on the model.
heavy billmen are useful, but only if flanking or behind stakes.
i do add them in, and when counter charging into the units that are biting into your spearmen units, absolutely devastating to their morale. but bills should never ever be consider as standard troop-of-the-line unit. their slow animation, 2-hander bug, and lack of defense give them the survival rating of peasants, just like Beckett in Church really.
LOL! can i borrow that crowbar for my next historical reference? :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by imnothere
certainly :-) although i do believe that i borrowed Becket-inna-church from an old reference elsewhere which i cant remember. feel free to whack anyone with it (the crowbar, or the bill...oh wait, sorry 2hander bug).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason X
hehe - i wonder if a crowbar would count as armour piercing?
Heavy Billmen are OK units, I usually keep a few in my English armies. They're very effective against militia and spear units. I have noticed though that they are vulnerable to cheap units with the "effective against armor" trait. These include Ceitherne, Highlanders, Highland Archers, and other axe-armed units. Heavy Billmen will usually defeat these units, but they'll take an irritating number of casualties.
I don't use them in battle lines though, since they're very vulnerable to cavalry charges. Which is dumb, since the billhook was used as an anti-cavalry weapon (the billman would use the hook to unhorse heavily armored knights). I suppose their ineffectiveness vs. cavalry is to avoid making them a super-unit.
they work fine against cavalry, in a melee. its the charge that they can't take.Quote:
Originally Posted by napoleon526
I agree , someone decided to get "creative" I think .Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoring
The version they are using in game was known as a Forrest Bill and sometimes as a Dueling Bill , was used as the name suggests for fighting in close quarters and they still made it a bit too short . The full/standard Bill was far longer .
They could have gotten away with Forrest Bills {though a bit longer than was modeled} for militia units and standard Bills for castle units but what using the {rarer} Forrest Bill for all was poor judgement I feel .
I do not agree. Bills and bill militia are fine commoner heavy inf, even the best considering the easy and early availability. the troops they should be compared to are continental halberdiers: voulgiers, militia halberds, obudshaer bachelors. and any axemen. like-for-like, the billmen are winners. cash-for-cash even more so. billmen are not knights, they are hedgelayers on national service. they are bread-and-butter stuff.
personally i would criticize militia halberds though. for HRE esp., these need a bit of modding. halberds should be steady formations that can defend the crossbows, not this free gift for the gravediggers' union.
I agree with Tacticus, you have to compare them to Halberd Militia, not D*Ks. I assume their purpose is as miltia defending cities. No charges, all melee, all arse whomping.
LOL @ D*Ks
I'm now going to always read DFK with the expletive!
Well, halberds are a complete disaster, anything will shine if you compare them to halberds.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiseReise
The fact is that billmen are pretty much redundant, even for city defense spearmen are better. Spearmen have more numbers, better vs cavs, better vs a gaterush.
Billmen would be used if you could not train spears in your cities. With spears available they are pretty much useless IMO.
Billmen are not too different from woodmen in eastern european factions for me, except they wear plate and stuff.
Cheap and u throw them away if needed but does not hold a particular role in game due to better alternatives.
:laugh4: I like that, but I didn't even think of how it looked when writing it, I was just trying to combine DFK and DEK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason X