Speaking of Israel...

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

OK - I'll get right to it.

The Inquisition was a phenomenon of the Renaissance - aimed at building a new Spanish nations it targeted all non-Catholics. This obviously fell heavily upon the Jewish populations, but it also fell heavily upon the Muslim population, which was probably larger, and targeted even those suspected of deviancy - i.e. not being Roman Catholic. Not to belittle the fact that the Jews were expelled, but it was not a movement targeting Jews specifically.

Thousands of religious Pogroms? Unlikely, dozens yes, hundreds possibly, but not thousands. That is a gross exaggeration. Looking through Wikipedia, there are perhaps 100 pages on instances of anti-Jewish pogroms, and some of those (like the 1907 Romanian Peasants' Revolt) were not about Jews, but they were targeted as part of the wealthy merchant class. As far as I know, the only pogroms that targeted Jews specifically as "Christ Killers" were the ones associated with the Crusades - carried out by people that everybody considered unhinged fanatics, including the Church, the Emperor and most normal people.

And then we come to the Holocaust, which targeted Jews first, and then anyone else who the Nazi's considered a threat - and which the Roman Catholic Church (largest denomination in the area affected) vocally opposed while it was possible and continued to actively frustrate throughout the 1940's, leading to the death of some of its clergy.

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Fair enough. Admittedly Im kind of shaky on my medieval history but regardless of the facts this is how its perceived in the most of Jewish community.

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To listen to you, I'd say they haven't improved at all. If Jews are constalty expecting another Pogrom, which is what this comes down to, and they don't trust the people they live next door to then the situation is exactly the same as for the last 1,000 years.

Contrast with Western discourse that talks about "Judeo-Christian" rather than "Abrahamic" religion.

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Improved in the sense that it went from pogroms being an eventuality to a "maybe in the far off future" but even then its not really mainstream thinking. Its really only the radicals who think that a single brick thrown through a Jewish storefront window is the next Kristallnacht.

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Clamouring for just retribution, which is practically the same but psychologically different. Sure people demand "justice" and they mean vengeance, but you'll rarely hear them say "we want revenge for those killings."

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Maybe we were hearing different things then.

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so Jews don't believe in Human Rights?

Can we try that again, please?

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In the sense that perceived threats do not deserve human rights like the rest of us? I think its a worrying trend in how some people think.

Israeli Official To Obama: ‘Leave Us Alone’

Ok that's cool, we will just take back our $3 billion a year in military aid. Have fun with paying for that Iron Dome (which we helped develop/fund) without that money!

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Israeli Official To Obama: ‘Leave Us Alone’

Ok that's cool, we will just take back our $3 billion a year in military aid. Have fun with paying for that Iron Dome (which we helped develop/fund) without that money!

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Can't they build it themselves from the schematics that they've stolen from you?

I thought China stole the schematics from Israel?

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Israeli Official To Obama: ‘Leave Us Alone’

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That doesn't mean leave us alone leave us alone. There is leave is alone plain and simple, and leave us alone after the money.

It's all in the nuances.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

I thought China stole the schematics from Israel?

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Couldn't they steal it directly from the US, instead of having to wait until Israel got their hands on it first?

This has simply become an excuse to satisfy bloodlust

It's a good thing Israel got all those HAMAS fighters in that un sanctioned hospital and school.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

That doesn't mean leave us alone leave us alone. There is leave is alone plain and simple, and leave us alone after the money.

It's all in the nuances.

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It's not the money really. Our financial and military assistance to Israel, that's merely the icing on the cake. Israel's greatest benefit from this relationship is total immunity from UN resolutions. We veto anything and everything even remotely threatening, allowing Israel to wipe its ass with world's opinion.
Now the real question is what we are getting in return for being saddled with such a hefty political liability. That's what Israel is to us: a political liability.

Anyway, as for the crisis at hand, the simplest way to solve it would be to allow Egypt to take over Gaza. Have their tanks roll in and establish a pre-1967 situation. If they don't wanna do it, pay them to do it. Bam: problem solved.

And here silly old me thought it was conflicts like this that the UN was supposed to handle.


Make a clear border for both sides. The border would be protected with state-of-the-art UN soldiers, well equipped and trained to deal fairly with the situation.

I think that's the only viable solution. An alternative would of course be to use nukes to make that whole area a gigantic parking lot...

Oh well, nothing will happen as long as the US stay a Jew lackey.

Ha, that will never happen even if the US dumps Israel as an ally. That would just make Israel more entrenched.

Either way, both sides are teaching their kids to hate the other side so nope this conflict can only end in eventual slaughter.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Ha, that will never happen even if the US dumps Israel as an ally. That would just make Israel more entrenched.

Either way, both sides are teaching their kids to hate the other side so nope this conflict can only end in eventual slaughter.

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That's why we need the blue helmets...

It's hard to convince your kid that that guy - who is ready to sacrifice his life for international justice - is a tangible target.




My point even shorter would be:

Israel and Palestine are like two children quarrelling, and it's time for a grown up to step in between them.

I think its pretty easy. I know this from personal experience because in 2007, about a year after the 2nd Lebanon war, I toured the Lebanon-Israeli border and we saw some of the UN peacekeepers and our guide told us how the UN was basically protecting Hezbollah so they can rearm for the next fight. Now I know that they weren't, but 15 year old me soaked up every word that guide told us about how the UN was just covering for the terrorists.

Its too late for an "adult" to step in, the kids aren't ten years old anymore.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

I think its pretty easy. I know this from personal experience because in 2007, about a year after the 2nd Lebanon war, I toured the Lebanon-Israeli border and we saw some of the UN peacekeepers and our guide told us how the UN was basically protecting Hezbollah so they can rearm for the next fight. Now I know that they weren't, but 15 year old me soaked up every word that guide told us about how the UN was just covering for the terrorists.

Its too late for an "adult" to step in, the kids aren't ten years old anymore.

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Neutrals are well known bastards.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

I think its pretty easy. I know this from personal experience because in 2007, about a year after the 2nd Lebanon war, I toured the Lebanon-Israeli border and we saw some of the UN peacekeepers and our guide told us how the UN was basically protecting Hezbollah so they can rearm for the next fight. Now I know that they weren't, but 15 year old me soaked up every word that guide told us about how the UN was just covering for the terrorists.

Its too late for an "adult" to step in, the kids aren't ten years old anymore.

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Well... I don't agree.

The UN isn't doing any full intervention, so what people would think might (would) change.


There will always be idiots, but remember that UN warfare is part "nation and education" building. You know, kind of like the US only that they actually mean it.


A full on western assault would cripple their resistance...

Now, I am not talking about weaponized assault, mind you.

I talk about politicians from all over the world having their public say, I talk about comedians world wide making up jokes about it, I talk about controlling their economy, I talk about.... The list goes on, but you get my point.


The UN military guys arent' the REAL show when it comes to the UN, it's the full on cultural assault that matters.

Again: sure there will be idiots... But right now they dwell in a society where they can play their idiocies... Whereas if the UN intervened for real, these same idiots would suddenly have a LOAD of other voices making themselves heard..

And people are not complete idiots, eventually they will listen. Specifically if helped by schools promoting critical thinking, HEY, something else the UN does.

So by "western assault" you mean what basically amounts to a gag order when it comes to Israel being lifted, and a control of their economy? I understand the lifting of the gag order, but the economy part? Im not seeing where that fits in, and I fail to see how even removing the gag order would help. If anything it would make Israel more entrenched.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

So by "western assault" you mean what basically amounts to a gag order when it comes to Israel being lifted, and a control of their economy? I understand the lifting of the gag order, but the economy part? Im not seeing where that fits in, and I fail to see how even removing the gag order would help. If anything it would make Israel more entrenched.

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* Lifting the international gag order would be first priority for any kind of civilized advancement, of course.

* The economy part is actually the very main thingy here... Do you think Israel would function for long if the west refused to trade with them, or if the west withdrew their aid?

Israel only functions BECAUSE the west *cough* USA *cough* allows it.


"Entrenched" is BS...

Israel is a small island in a very big sea of "Let's get rid of Israel". Cut off from western aid they would NEVER last for long.

Oh, and it's not even like China or Russia would HELP them, like they do with nations messing with USA.

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Israel is a small island in a very big sea of "Let's get rid of Israel". Cut off from western aid they would NEVER last for long.

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Israel would kill 100x the people they are now if they were backed into a corner like that. Modern Arab armed forces are piss poor, especially when compared to the Israelis. Not to mention the chemical, biological, and nuclear plans they have if the shit hits the fan.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Israel would kill 100x the people they are now if they were backed into a corner like that. Modern Arab armed forces are piss poor, especially when compared to the Israelis. Not to mention the chemical, biological, and nuclear plans they have if the shit hits the fan. - edited

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Last I checked you needed money to make war.

Also, as a more current note you also need the western worlds acceptance to wage war. I'm not kidding, 2014 you need the moral high ground to be able to function. Remove that, and any western nation is at a stand still.

If the Israelis started to attack UN troops the **** would hit the fan, to say the least.



BTW, seriously SFTS. Stop attacking the person, and start attacking the argument. Saying my posts = mental illness and that I am deluded not only paint you in a bad view, but the board at large (as you are senior member).

I personally don't feel negative about your explicit language. But, mind you, I have started to use that to measure just how drunk you are when you post.

Cutting Israel off from the world is what the hard line Zionists want. It would be a boon for the cause. The fact you think UN peacekeepers can do anything is insane.

Srebrenica
Somalia
DRC
ETC.

Those blue helmets stopped the baddies then

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Cutting Israel off from the world is what the hard line Zionists want. It would be a boon for the cause. The fact you think UN peacekeepers can do anything is insane.

Srebrenica
Somalia
DRC
ETC.

Those blue helmets stopped the baddies then

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A lot depends on which militaries are staffing the blue-beanie mission in question. UN efforts at establishing security zones have had mixed results -- notable successes along with failures wherein they have turned predatory towards their protectees.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Cutting Israel off from the world is what the hard line Zionists want. It would be a boon for the cause. The fact you think UN peacekeepers can do anything is insane.

Srebrenica
Somalia
DRC
ETC.

Those blue helmets stopped the baddies then

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Blue helmets are not enough - they need to have really big blue guns and blue tanks and blue airplanes and blue gunships, so that everyone think twice before messing with them.

Sending them in armed with pocket knives and moral superiority doesn't work.

Just do nothing. The second Hamas is gone there will come something worse. At least you can talk with Hamas (yeah I am inconsistant here considering earlier posts, I know and acknowledge that, but it isn't about me is it). Anything should be done to end this in a reasonable way, it's getting somewhat insane. Doing nothing looks best, more will die of course.

Edit, well that was short, more rockets ad hominem after 72 very short hours that lasted only 4. Whoever is in control there is not interested peace, or interested in a homeland for the Palestinians.

Thesis, Hamas can't afford to have peace because they will become the victim of much much worse radicals. Hamas is a really ugly thing, but less ugly than much uglier groups.
Crazy as it may sound, maybe Hamas is exactly who everyone should treat as a valiable partner for a talk. The alternative is probably much more horrible. That Arab-spring the left cheered on is the new Heart of Darkness. Nice to see a Dutch muslim posing before a gate with heads spiked on in it. Cutting of a head, gently pulling the ear upward for the cut, almost seemed intimate, how sick is that.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Just do nothing. The second Hamas is gone there will come something worse. At least you can talk with Hamas (yeah I am inconsistant here considering earlier posts, I know and acknowledge that, but it isn't about me is it). Anything should be done to end this in a reasonable way, it's getting somewhat insane. Doing nothing looks best, more will die of course.

Edit, well that was short, more rockets ad hominem after 72 very short hours that lasted only 4. Whoever is in control there is not interested peace, or interested in a homeland for the Palestinians.

Thesis, Hamas can't afford to have peace because they will become the victim of much much worse radicals. Hamas is a really ugly thing, but less ugly than much uglier groups.
Crazy as it may sound, maybe Hamas is exactly who everyone should treat as a valiable partner for a talk. The alternative is much more horrible.

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Have you tried considering that Palestinians don't have a hive mind and that just maybe some individuals have ideas of their own? Just food for thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Have you tried considering that Palestinians don't have a hive mind and that just maybe some individuals have ideas of their own? Just food for thoughts.

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Ffs I know Palistinians that live here, had a barbecue with them yesterday, did you? If you assume that I am that stupid it says more about you than it says about me. Guess who they dislike more, the Israeli's or these religious nutjobs who shoot people at weddings because they play music, there is only one answer to that, the right one.

[QUOTE=Fragony;2053605773]Ffs I know Palistinians that live here, had a barbecue with them yesterday, did you? If you assume that I am that stupid it says more about you than it says about me. Guess who they dislike more, the Israeli's or these religious nutjobs who shoot people at weddings because they play music, there is only one answer to that, the right one.[/QUOTE

Your posts imply something else.

A makeshift rocket or two doesn't mean that Palestinians at large, or even Hamas, want war. It means there are few nutjobs with a few makeshift rockets on there hands.

[QUOTE=Sarmatian;2053605774]

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Your posts imply something else.

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Oh really, what you make of them is not my concern. I am perfectly harmless. Just outspoken.

Apparently the ceasefire ended because Hamas kidnapped a soldier or something. Hamas is claiming he was taken just before the ceasefire began, but who really knows.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Apparently the ceasefire ended because neither side wants it.

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FTFY

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Have you tried considering that Palestinians don't have a hive mind and that just maybe some individuals have ideas of their own? Just food for thoughts.

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He's not wrong, though. Hamas is not the most radical Palestinian movement, not by a long shot. Any sort of peace agreement or even a cease fire must avoid the possibility that Hamas will lose face, otherwise:
- there's a good chance that Gaza will disintegrate into civil war
- armed splinter groups, more radical than Hamas, will ignore the agreement and start firing rockets at Israel on their own accord

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Apparently the ceasefire ended because Hamas kidnapped a soldier or something. Hamas is claiming he was taken just before the ceasefire began, but who really knows.

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Yes, apparently Israel is strangely upset that in an armed conflict it's military personnel may be at risk.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

He's not wrong, though. Hamas is not the most radical Palestinian movement, not by a long shot. Any sort of peace agreement or even a cease fire must avoid the possibility that Hamas will lose face, otherwise:
- there's a good chance that Gaza will disintegrate into civil war
- armed splinter groups, more radical than Hamas, will ignore the agreement and start firing rockets at Israel on their own accord

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I'm not convinced that either side is truly in control of what happens in their name.