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The Hashishin were Nizaris, the Fatimids weren't - the Nizaris killed both al-Afdal Shahanshah, after whose death the Egyptian government collapsed and the last 'real' Caliph nine years later. Yes, most of their murders were against Sunnites, primarily due to geographical location.
Yes, I know you said 'perhaps' but I was just clarifying. I've done a lot of research on this for 12th Century Glory (in the sig.).
MTR members please make ur opinions heard at the twcenter dev forums ..thannks.
don't they need a password?Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
btw, do you have researchers for France? I think I can spent a bit more of my free time on research.
:2thumbsup: Check ur PM cutepuppy
sure :2thumbsup:Quote:
btw, do you have researchers for France? I think I can spent a bit more of my free time on research.
how about including the teutonic order, knights hospitaler, and persia ( khwarezm, ilkhans, timurids ) as independant factions.
Not too sure about Teutonic Orders and Knights Hospitallers, not becayse we don't want it, but beca\use we're trying to figure out how to integrate them!!Quote:
how about including the teutonic order, knights hospitaler, and persia ( khwarezm, ilkhans, timurids ) as independant factions.
As for Khwarezmians, Ilkhanids, Timurids, they will be scripted spawns. Ilkhanids and Timurids will be treated as internal conflicts within the Mongol faction which was true...
https://img366.imageshack.us/img366/...iarchonly7.jpg
Basilikos Tagmatikoi Hippeis Senior officer :2thumbsup:
Its a mace in his hand, but I guess he's pretending its a make believe mace :laugh4:
I think venice is superfluous as a faction. perhaps you can reconsider venice as a faction.
venice was economically powerful but not very aggressive militarily aside from providing ships for crusaders.
if anything , venice and the papal states should be scripted events, much like the senate gave missions.
if there is a 'horde' style of faction then the teutonic order and knights hospitaler should be like this.
for example the knights hospitaler started out in jerusalem moved to cyprus then rhodes then malta. don't forget they were the most active against the mamlukes then the ottomans in the mediterranean. they even fought against timur.
The teutonic order for its part started in the holy land then moved to hungary and after to prussia where they warred independantly of the HRE against Poland, Lithuania, and Novgorod.
Persia would help balance out power in the middle east. After Genghis Khan destroyed Khwarezm the khwarezmians were a free mercenary company employed by the muslim states in the near east (another ' horde ' faction).
Anyhow please consider. neglected areas of the map are scandinavia, eastern europe and the middle east. italy and iberia seem to be overrepresented.
Could someone check out the Turkish faction thread at the main developer forum? :book:
I have a good background on Ottoman history, but the Turks here are Seljuk Turks am I right? If not, I would like to contribute to this mod with my knowledge on the Ottomans.
As we couldn't put in two seperate Seljuk and Ottoman Empires, we have a single "Turkish Sultanate". Ottoman units come in after 1320, but we have both Seljuk and Ottoman units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Denizar
As for the help, there really is a high number of people offering help. While this is a really good thing, the research gets extremely difficult to manage when a lot of people are doing the samething. Besides the research is almost finished.
I will post the results here, so that everybody can offer their thoughts. The findings are totally open to suggestions.
They're no neglected they'll be represented by independent factions with their own unique units. People just don't understand, we have faction limits, unit limits and province limits. We can't just add anything that we'd like to.Quote:
Anyhow please consider. neglected areas of the map are scandinavia, eastern europe and the middle east. italy and iberia seem to be overrepresented.
Please specifiy how and why Italy and Iberia are overrepresented?
And Venice will be retained as they are no maritime empires in our faction list except them.
Cebei is responsible for the Turkish faction, all Turanian (:D) matters are to be referred to him. I trust him in all matters.
A few more concepts...
Mongol Faction Leader, Heir and Tuq Standard.
https://img164.imageshack.us/img164/...on01ez0.th.jpg
Mongol Khan.
https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/...on03ax7.th.jpg
Just an idea.
https://img177.imageshack.us/img177/...nskyjq7.th.jpg
........Orda
Excitement overload....gone to take medicine ^^
And how to enter without password?:help:Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
Not at all. The Ilkhanids were not an internal conflict of the Golden Horde, they were simply the khanate formed by Hulegu's conquests, while the Golden Horde was an extension of the Ulus of Jochi. The Timurids were not even really mongols, nor did he conquer mongols. The Ilkhanate had already fallen into dissary and the local people had regained their sovernity. I really dont see how either the Ilkhanate or Timurids are internal conflicts in the Mongol faction, with special emphasis on the Timurids.Quote:
Ilkhanids and Timurids will be treated as internal conflicts within the Mongol faction which was true...
I said internal conflicts within the Mongol faction, not the Golden Horde. The Ilkanids was a khanate within the Mongol faction, we will script an internal conflict between the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate within the Mongol Faction. Remember, there is no Golden Horde faction, it is the Mongol Faction which includes the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanids.Quote:
Not at all. The Ilkhanids were not an internal conflict of the Golden Horde, they were simply the khanate formed by Hulegu's conquests, while the Golden Horde was an extension of the Ulus of Jochi. The Timurids were not even really mongols, nor did he conquer mongols. The Ilkhanate had already fallen into dissary and the local people had regained their sovernity. I really dont see how either the Ilkhanate or Timurids are internal conflicts in the Mongol faction, with special emphasis on the Timurids.
The Timurids were from the Barlas Mongol tribe which were heavily Turkicised and the fact the Timur used the Chagatai Mongols and fought the Golden Horde Khanate. Timur claimed himself as a successor of Chingis Khan and sought to emulate this by attempting to invade CHina but died on the way to invading Ming China. Timur's machinations were within the theoretical polity of the Mongol Empire. His actions brought the weakness of the Chagatai Khanate and the theoretical polity of the Mongol Empire to its fruition and hence the internal conflict.
kataphractoi i did not mean to offend.
i appreciate the fact that i can voice my opinion.
here are some nifty maps
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1100.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1200.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm
in 1100 there are 8 russian states of which only 1 will be included in the game.
in 1200 there are 3 scandinavian states pomerania and pomerelia are independant duchies, only denmark is included as a faction.
in 1400 the teutonic knights have large territories in the baltic, they were involved in most of the conflicts against russia, poland, and the heathen balts, not the HRE.
you can see that the papla states and venice have not expanded much from 1100 to 1400, the venetians and papacy should in my opinion be like the senate missions in rome tw, this reflects what happened during the 6th crusade and so forth.
the spanish reconquista was the most important conflict in iberia during the period, 2 factions are necessary to reflect this the moors and castile-leon.
conversely alexander nevsky's novgorod fought the swedes, danes and teutonic knights. of which only denmark is included as a faction.
there are a multitude of independant states in the middle east
Emerging factions are not playable factions, so we only have one unplayable faction in the Mongols.
Venice represents a very unique faction in that it is maritime empire compared to other factions. We want this uniqueness. IN fact, some province boundaries on our map takes Venice into consideration by allowing small enclaves for Venice to conquer and hold and try its luck in ruling a rich maritime empire.
And Papal State?Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
How many times has the question been posed, in the Org forums, not to mention anywhere else; "Could the Mongols have conquered Europe?"
Then CA choose to release two games, both covering the same period and in both games the Mongols are non playable. How lame is that?
......Orda
Hey, I'm an avid scholar of history, as well as an avid player of the TW series. I have played the realism mods and was impressed (very much so), so I decided I wanted to be a historical advisor to the M2TR team. I am Scottish and study medieval, ancient, and imperial forms of war, as well as weapons and armor, unique to time periods, eras, nations, and states.
I also study Scottish history and warfare, as well as Byzantine (my two medieval nations I put a lot of attention to), which are both elusive on information about their warfare, which leads to a lot of misconceptions in games (like M2TW making the Scots like Braveheart's bunch of morons).
So mainly, this is an application to work on the mod and be an advisor.
So yes, I did copy paste that, but I wanted to repost, exactly in those terms so there'd be no confusion.
In short, I mainly want to help advise on the Scottish and British/Irish civilizations, as well as the Byzantines. I do have a hoard of knowledge, but since other historians here might be more concentrated in that area, I'd like to help on the lesser known and explored civilizations.
My msn:beepersandbopers@hotmail.com
My email: beepersandbopers@yahoo.com
Thanks,
Mac
Well that just seems odd. By the time the Ilkhanate was established there really was no "mongol faction". Ogodei would excert some control over his fellows, but certainly after him the mongol Empire would be divided into seperate Khanates that were only similiar in culture. I really dont see how these are internal conflicts. The wars between the Horde and Ilkhanate were wars between two fully seperate entities that were in no way two parts of the same body.Quote:
I said internal conflicts within the Mongol faction, not the Golden Horde. The Ilkanids was a khanate within the Mongol faction, we will script an internal conflict between the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate within the Mongol Faction. Remember, there is no Golden Horde faction, it is the Mongol Faction which includes the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanids.
Temur had very little Mongol roots. So little that he had to use a puppet Chagatai ruler during his reign because due to his descent he could never be a khan. He fought the Golden Horde yes, but I dont understand how that makes him a mongol? His armies which were largely of sedintary peoples conquered Persia, and made short work of all the middle eastern nations. He only fought the Golden Horde because he was invaded by them first. He had supported Tecumesh to fight the Khan of the White Horde, Tecumesh was too succesful reunited the entire golden horde. With the Ulus of Jochi united he would then raid Temur's lands, because well frankly he had nowhere else to go.Quote:
The Timurids were from the Barlas Mongol tribe which were heavily Turkicised and the fact the Timur used the Chagatai Mongols and fought the Golden Horde Khanate.
So yes he was a native of the Chatagatay Ulus, however he was not a Chatagay and he fought the Horde, but only because he had an ambitious neighbor. None of these things make him a mongol, or his empire a mongol one.
Claimed himself Timur Gurgan, son in law of the Khan, because one of his wife's Genghisid descent was the closest he could get to any tie with Genghis. He did make his way to China however that is after there was nowhere else to go. The relativly poor lands of Europe were simply unacceptable as conquests for a man who had defeated Bayezid, Tecumesh, and all the other indepedent rulers of the mideast.Quote:
Timur claimed himself as a successor of Chingis Khan and sought to emulate this by attempting to invade CHina but died on the way to invading Ming China.
Regardless, emulating yourself after a powerful leader still does not make this an internal conflict.
The Khanate was already split in two with both sides extremely hostile towards eachother at the time of Temur's birth. His actions instead was a movement that nearly reunited the former Mongol Empire, however this time with an entirely different ruling elite.Quote:
His actions brought the weakness of the Chagatai Khanate
I still dont understand. He was not a Mongol, his armies weren't mongols, and he fought mainly persians who had Persian leaders with slight mongol ancestory. The Ilkhanate, Chatagay Khanate, Goldern Horde, and Yuan Dynasty were all alreayd fallen before Temur, I fail to see how he can be classified as part of them.Quote:
and the theoretical polity of the Mongol Empire to its fruition and hence the internal conflict.
Read this,
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=68590
I find it hard to explain why Temur was not an internal conflict, because well he simply wasnt. Perhaps my narrative on him will help explain the situation better.
Hence my comment that the Mongol faction was a theoretical polity eventually torn apart by real political infighting.Quote:
Well that just seems odd. By the time the Ilkhanate was established there really was no "mongol faction". Ogodei would excert some control over his fellows, but certainly after him the mongol Empire would be divided into seperate Khanates that were only similiar in culture. I really dont see how these are internal conflicts. The wars between the Horde and Ilkhanate were wars between two fully seperate entities that were in no way two parts of the same body.
Being a Barlas Mongol does not constitute a Mongol albeit a heavily Turkicised one? But perhaps I didn't clarify it well enough. I see Timur's wars not as a civil war, but as an internal conflict first inside the Chagatai Khanate and which later spread into a conflict with another Mongol state as an external conflict.Quote:
Temur had very little Mongol roots. So little that he had to use a puppet Chagatai ruler during his reign because due to his descent he could never be a khan. He fought the Golden Horde yes, but I dont understand how that makes him a mongol? His armies which were largely of sedintary peoples conquered Persia, and made short work of all the middle eastern nations. He only fought the Golden Horde because he was invaded by them first. He had supported Tecumesh to fight the Khan of the White Horde, Tecumesh was too succesful reunited the entire golden horde. With the Ulus of Jochi united he would then raid Temur's lands, because well frankly he had nowhere else to go.
So yes he was a native of the Chatagatay Ulus, however he was not a Chatagay and he fought the Horde, but only because he had an ambitious neighbor. None of these things make him a mongol, or his empire a mongol one.
As for the Ilkhanids and GH, I see it differently than Timur's wars.
\Quote:
Claimed himself Timur Gurgan, son in law of the Khan, because one of his wife's Genghisid descent was the closest he could get to any tie with Genghis. He did make his way to China however that is after there was nowhere else to go. The relativly poor lands of Europe were simply unacceptable as conquests for a man who had defeated Bayezid, Tecumesh, and all the other indepedent rulers of the mideast.
Regardless, emulating yourself after a powerful leader still does not make this an internal conflict.
My fault for clarifying it as an internal (treasonous) conflict within the Chagatai Khanate
In practical terms I agree, but in ideological terms Timur saw it differently.Quote:
I still dont understand. He was not a Mongol, his armies weren't mongols, and he fought mainly persians who had Persian leaders with slight mongol ancestory. The Ilkhanate, Chatagay Khanate, Goldern Horde, and Yuan Dynasty were all alreayd fallen before Temur, I fail to see how he can be classified as part of them.
Let's not go there :help:Quote:
Originally Posted by Orda Khan
Well, the Golden Horde was playable in the MTW late campaign, if I recall correctly? And they had a battle series campaign. It is simply the matter of appearing factions - you can't play the mongols if they appear mid-game. Since CA has decided there will be no high or late campaign, there will be no playable mongols.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orda Khan
My point just highlights the fact that eras should be in the campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringeck
Well, it was Mangku who unleashed Hulegu on what would eventually become the formation of the Ilkhanate, though each house was expected to provide troops for the invasion force, this included the Jochid house. We can discount from this point, 1251, both Chagadai and Ogodei holdings as their independent princes were executed during the great purge.Quote:
By the time the Ilkhanate was established there really was no "mongol faction". Ogodei would excert some control over his fellows, but certainly after him the mongol Empire would be divided into seperate Khanates that were only similiar in culture. I really dont see how these are internal conflicts. The wars between the Horde and Ilkhanate were wars between two fully seperate entities that were in no way two parts of the same body.
There was friction between the Golden Horde and the soon-to-be-Ilkhanate very early and this was due to Hulegu's actions in annexing land at the southern Caucasus region, land that the Golden Horde saw as theirs by right. This was further aggrevated by Berke's allegiance with the Mamluks and Hulegu's treacherous execution of the Jochid princes present within his forces.
I quite see Kataphraktoi's reasoning and let's remember certain things about the game will require a little poetic licence to achieve something like accuracy. The hostilities between these two did in fact start before the Ilkhanate were established. Berke recalled his troops, many of which returned to Mamluk ranks and some became the later known Qaraunas. These hostilities hampered both sides and having the Ilkhanate appear as an internal conflict is a fairly adequate way to depict the events.
Timur meddled with White Horde politics, he helped the naive Toqtamish attain a position of power, something he had failed to do alone. When he contested rule he had been decisively beaten by Urus. Once Urus had died the task was easier, for both Toqtamish and Timur. Toqtamish was no master strategist and took full advantage of the anarchy within the Golden Horde to defeat Mamai ( who had recently been defeated at Kulikovo ) and unite both Hordes. He improved his battlefield knowledge and reversed the Muscovite victory. Perhaps beginning to believe in his ability he thought he was a match for his mentor, which he was notQuote:
He only fought the Golden Horde because he was invaded by them first. He had supported Tecumesh to fight the Khan of the White Horde, Tecumesh was too succesful reunited the entire golden horde.
.......Orda
:laugh4: I'll defer to Orda Khan on this matter, I'm out of my league with Steppe armies :laugh4:
Hey I got banned from TWC (for a day) for sticking up for your mod!:laugh4: Can't say I care though - I accidently called someone a bad word but quite frankly he deserved it!:laugh4:
Agree. Without eras we will have units in XI century which had nothing with this century,:laugh4: like gunpowder units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orda Khan
Good for you...:laugh4: I am general warned (not via PM) after my first post out of developer subforum. :dizzy2: I will keep my comments about moderators from TWC (btw they are not nearly good as they ate hear)...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blind King of Bohemia
except it negates the fact that they were acting as two individual factions, well within the time period.Quote:
These hostilities hampered both sides and having the Ilkhanate appear as an internal conflict is a fairly adequate way to depict the events.
Yes im aware of all this and agree 100%. However what does it contest that I said? Or were you simply expanding upon what I had said?Quote:
Timur meddled with White Horde politics, he helped the naive Toqtamish attain a position of power, something he had failed to do alone. When he contested rule he had been decisively beaten by Urus. Once Urus had died the task was easier, for both Toqtamish and Timur. Toqtamish was no master strategist and took full advantage of the anarchy within the Golden Horde to defeat Mamai ( who had recently been defeated at Kulikovo ) and unite both Hordes. He improved his battlefield knowledge and reversed the Muscovite victory. Perhaps beginning to believe in his ability he thought he was a match for his mentor, which he was not
lets not get things confused. As any leader, Temur needed legitamacy. The best way to do this was marrying someone of Genghis descent and claiming himself the guardian of the line, Temur Gurgan. Very similiar to how Napolean would visit Aachen and view himself as the heir to Charlemagne.Quote:
In practical terms I agree, but in ideological terms Timur saw it differently.
Temur was a militaristic despot who's only real doctrine was that of conquest. Despite any ties with the Mongols or not he wanted to conquer and do as much of it as possible. His whole power became to depend on it. So I dont think Temur should be regarded as a ideological leader, more so simply a man who had an inner drive to conquer that was aided by many outside factors that made it practical to conquer.