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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Amir Temur Gurgan

    Note: This is an article I have written for personal pleasure. I do hope you enjoy reading it while learning some things on Temur. If you see incorrect info feel free to point it out.

    Amir Temur Gurgan
    Scourge of God


    Introduction:
    Of all the mighty conquerors of the ages Temur is the most neglected by western society. When the word conqueror is muttered one may image the mighty Genghis Khan with his Mongol hordes descending upon the Chinese. Or perhaps ones imagines the innumerable phalanxes of the richly Alexander as they annihilate the forces of Darius. Very few however would think of perhaps the greatest conqueror of them all, Amir Temur ibn Taraghay ibn Bargul ibn Aylangir ibn Ichil ibn Al-Amir Karachar Noyan, or as we in the west know him, Tamberlane. It his story that shall now be told.


    The Winds of Change:
    The story of Temur is invariably tied to that of Genghis for it is out of the shattering of his empire that Temur’s would be born. Upon his death the Empire of Genghis would be divided amongst the four sons of his chief wife. Jochi the eldest would receive the lands of the fringe steppe. Through conquest of Batu this would eventually become the mighty Golden Khanate, but at the time it was much more modest in size and fortunes. The second son Chataghay would receive the lands of central Asia. The Second son, Ogedey would become the Great Khan and rule the lands of Northern China. The youngest son, Tolui would receive the mongolian homelands. The Ulus of Jochi as previously stated would grow to become the Golden Horde, or Kipack Horde. The Ulus of Chataghay would more or less remain constant in size. Both the Ulus of Ogedey and Tului would eventually be ruled as one and extend dominion over all of China. A fourth Khanate would be created by the conquests of Hulagu. This Khanate would be Ilkhanate( roughly subordinate Khante) which signifies its subordinate relationship with the Great Khanate. One by one these Khanates would descend into chaos. In the Ilkhanate troubles arose in 1335 with the death of Abu Sa’id. After his death wars of succession would rage until the last claimant was assassinated in 1353. Similarly the Golden Horde would plunge into secularism, which led to two separate Khanates, the White Horde and the Blue Horde. Most importantly to the subject at hand was the disintegration of Chataghay Khanate. Conflicts here would arise from the differences of the more sedentary west and the nomadic east. Unresolved disputes would lead two separate states, Mawarannahr in the west and Moghulstan in the east. This is the world that young Temur was born into.




    Rise to Greatness:
    In the year 1336 Temur(meaning iron) was born to Taragahy, a minor noble of the Barlas Clan. His early life would not be exceptional or of much significance. Young Temur was simply a boy raised on the steppe in the same tradition of countless others across the vast Eurasian Steppe. He would be trained at an early age the art of riding a horse and shooting a bow, skills which would prove very useful to him in latter life. These years would be interrupted when in 1360 the Moghul Khan Haji Beg would invade with the intentions of uniting the fragmented Ulus of Chataghay. The leader of the Barlas clan would choose flight of fight, but Temur would give a daring alternative. He would take a group of men and fight of the Moghul army. With his offer accepted Temur marched to the Moghula army, but rather the fight he cunningly chose to offer his services to the Moghuls. This risky offer was accepted and Temur would become a vassal. This did not last long however. Quickly an alliance with Amir Husayn of Balk the two would become outlaws. Temur would then roam Asia as a mercenary. It is in these days that he would receive serious wounds to his right limbs that would coin him the name, Temur the lame. Eventually through tactical genius Temur’s insurgency would prove victorious and the Moghuls would flee Mawarannahr. This victory however would be short lived for there was not enough room in southern Mawarannahr for the ambitions of Temur and Amir Husayn. While Husyan held the higher rank, Temur held the great skill and his following steadily increased. Open war would eventually ensue with Temur rising to the top. Killing Husyan Temur would take his wife Saray of the Genghis line and from then on he would take the title Gurgan, son-in-law of the Great Khan. With the defeat of Husyan Temur was the undisputed ruler of Mawarannahr and his reign of conquest was about ready for initiation.


    The Tide of War:
    Temur's conquests are so numerous that for the most part detail is impossible and altogether unnecessary. In the years following Temur’s ascension to ruler of Mawarannahr he lead two campaigns that ensured regional hegemony. The first was to the north against the Sufi Kingdom of Khorezm and the second was against his old enemy the Moghuls. Both enemies were defeated with ease and it was with this that Temur began to worry about bigger fish to fry. To the southwest lay the wealth of Persia awaiting a man strong enough to take it. Before this however Temur had to ensure his borders. With the defeat of the Moghuls his eastern border was secure, but the mighty Urus Khan of the White Horde posed a serious threat to the north. Urus had ambitions to restore the former glory of the Golden Horde, which included Temur’s new lands of Khorezm. To avoid a major conflict with his northern neighbor Temur opted to support a young Prince Tokhtamish who also desired a reunited Golden Horde. After several setbacks and the undaunting support of Temur, Tokhatmish was able to defeat Urus and crowned himself Khan of the White Horde. With his close ally securely in power Temur moved on a thunder campaign in Persia where he devastated cities and hordes their amassed their wealth. The once mighty cities such as Heart lay in ruins. Temur would moved further in taking Tabriz, Isfahan, and laid waste to the cities of the proud Georgians. Amidst all this glory Temur would receive terrible news. As he conquered the realms of the west his protégé Tokhatmish had led a raid into the empires heart, Mawarannahr. Having moved through all of Persia with relative ease Temur would now have an adversary of considerable skill and might. Temur’s ability would be put to the test for the first time since Amir Husyan.


    of Ice and Steel:
    Temur had used Tokhatmish as a method of weaking Urus’s power in the North, yet Tokhatmish was too successful. Instead of creating internal friction in the Northern realm Tokhatmish had successfully united the entire Golden Horde. As Khan of the Golden Horde Tokhatmish had but three options. He could attack the lands of Europe, the Ming, or the lands of Temur. To not attack anywhere would bring certain mutiny from his followers whom like any steppe army were dependent on spoils. The Ming were simply out of the question by mere equation of logistics and statistics and Europe was simply relatively poor. The only real option then was for Tokhatmish to attack his former master. Tokhatmish thus led several lightning raids into Temur’s territories while Temur was off campaining in the East. While Temur’s response was furious. After wintering in Taskent his army marched north into the vast steppes of central Asia. With masterful maneuvering Tokhatmish would avoid the Tartar army for five long months. Temur’s men were hungry, tired, and ready to be picked off. Only the personal charisma of Temur could keep the army moving. Eventually in the rim lands of Siberia Temur would manage top trap Tokhatmish and the battle of Kunduzcha would commence. Both armies had similar composition and similar numbers though Tokhatmish had the slight superiority. Also his men were in their homelands had been in much better supply throughout the months of marching. The two hordes would do battle and it would appear that Tokhatmish would win the day, but just as Temur’s forces were being overwhelmed Tokhatmish fled the battlefield for his life. This proved fatal for his army and they mimicked him shortly after spreading across the corners of the steppe. Tokhatmish was alive, but his power base destroyed. The victory was greatly celebrated, but the celebrations were not long lived. As soon as the next campaigning season came Timur prepared a new campaign in Persia. He would again conquer Persia while also stopping by Georgia to give the Christians a good hammering. Amazingly during this time Tokhatmish would resume his power and initiate raids in the Caucus as a defying blow to Temur. This adversary had to be defeated for good. Temur marched up to the lands of the Golden Horde once again for battle. This time Tokhatmish would have much less room to maneuver and he was promptly defeated. He was able to escape, so Temur had to make sure his empire could never return to power. Full of fiery wrath Temur rampaged through the prominent cities of Tana, Saray, and Astrakhan. The purpose was two-fold. Tokhatmish lost his power base and the massive trade that had passed through these cities was forced now to take the southern route through Temur’s lands. With only a brief stop to crush Georgia again Temur would return triumphantly to his capital of Samarkand. Here he would stay for two long years.


    Temur the Man :
    Of all the great conquerors Temur is one of the few who had not only the power of destruction, but the gift of creation as well. Temur was a magnificent patron of the arts and sciences. Temurid architecture is often viewed as the pinnacle of Muslim culture and his empire would become a hub of intellectuals of the era. While he was a strong builder of fine culture, Temur certainly lacked in governmental organization. For this he has been harshly criticized, yet this criticism is largly unjust. Temur did not focus on forming an organized empire, his empire was based soley around his person. Temur faced several revolts, but none that would threat the security of his empire. Revolts could easily be promptly put down by the Tartar army. This army fought in the traditional steppe style with a left wing, center, right wing, and vanguard. Through out his entire life Temur would be personally active in the campaigns and in his younger years he won renown not only as a commander of men, but as a mighty warrior despite the injuries of his right limbs. Another very common criticism of Temur is his cruelty and not stop conquest. Conquest was the only thing that kept Temur's soldiers loyal as they depended on the spoils of war for a living. Cruelty was to keep the loyalty of the populace. Terror was not a play toy of Temur, it was simply a tool necessary to maintain a peaceable empire. Entire cities were slaughtered, and Temur was very creative with methods to achieve this. In one instance he cemented the citizens into a tower as they were still living. This however meant that several cities would decide not to fight and save the conqueror much time from being bogged down in lengthy sieges. Temur was thus not only a mindless savage as some would have you to believe, but a brilliant tactician, a patron of the arts and intellect, fierce warrior, and an effective administrator. After two years stay in Samarkand this Renaissance man was ready for new conquests. The Uluses of Hulagu and Chataghay were his, with the Ulus of Jochi in ruins. The last fragments of the once mighty Mongolian empire lay to the east in China, and Temur had his sights dead set on them.


    Land of Elephants and Gold:

    Being ever a pragmatist Temur would alter his plans for China for that of India. The once mighty Sultanate of Delhi was plagued by internal strife and Temur could not pass such a resisting opportunity. Not only did Delhi hold great wealth, but there were plenty of infidels do kill as well. So the armies were prepared and Temur went on a journey through one of the world’s most extreme climates. Upon reaching Delhi Temur used an old age trick. By devastating the local area he forced the defenders out of their gates for battle. While Temur held the mightier army, Dehli had one weapon of unparalleled power, 100 armored War Elephants. Not only could these creatures inflict heavy causalities, they also were a serious psychological weapon. To overcome this gargantuan opponent Temur would use another trick. He placed straw on camels backs and set it on fire. The camels were sent into the ranks of Elephants and scared them back. In retreat these Elephants trampled many of their own men. The battle was won and the gates of Delhi open. The people would be spared, but they would rebel and ensure their own deaths. The once mighty city of Delhi was reduced to ruins. With the wealth of Delhi Temur would thus return again triumphantly to Samarkand and spared no expense to show off his new play toys, the War Elephants of Delhi. Like always however victory processions would be short lived. News that his long time enemy Sultan Barquq of Egypt and Syria had died and the succession problems that followed were like Delhi, an offer too tempting to decline. Once again Temur would round up the troops prepare once again for the long marches of war.


    The Road to Damascus and the world beyond:
    After returning from the exotic lands of India Temur would consript an army for a seven year long campaign. The march to Syria would be a very long one. Upon arrival Temur set the wheels of conquest quickly in motion. The great cities of Allepo and Silvas were defeated with the usual ease and Temur moved to the prime target, Damascus. Damascus was once the capital of the Islamic Caliphate and was of astonishing size, wealth, and beauty. While the defenses of Damascus could hold up to siege well not defenses could hold up to Temur’s army indefinatly. Finally the walls would be breached and the city was torched, and much to the dismay of Temur many of the Uyyamid structures were destroyed. With Syria under the heel of Temur the ten-year-old Sultan of Egypt had no choice but to swear his loyalty to Temur. The mighty empire that had repelled the Crusades and Mongol incursions was thus conquered by Temur in a matter of years. Having the Southern lands secure Temur would then turn to his biggest challenge yet, the mighty Ottoman Sultan Bayazid. Bayazid was an expert conqueror in his own right. It was his forces that crushed the Last Crusade at Nicopolis and it was his forces that evoked great fear throughout Europe. After a quick winter in the pastures of Qarabagh Temur was ready to test his might against this skilled adversary. With news of Temur’s arrival Bayazid would pull his troops away from the siege of Constantinople and head to the high ground at Ankara were his troops would have excellent advantage. Temur would however pull from his arsenal of deceit to make the battle on his terms. He marched his army not towards Ankara, but rather the heart of Asia minor where whole scale destruction was guaranteed to occur. Bayazid, determined to stop the devastation to his lands, led his army away from their defensive fortifications. Demonstrating masterful maneuvering Temur ended up camping on the same ground that Bayazid had just left. Temur prepared defensive fortifications and Bayazid had no choice, but to accept the battle. The Ottomans would have in the field of 120,000 men, while Temur had something in the ballpark of 80,000. It would be the climatic pinnacle of both conquerors careers and decide which was to carry the legacy of greatness beheld by only a few. The tartar drums would pound and the horde of Temur would descend onto the Ottomans. Bayazid’s forces would hold on till nightfall, but they could not resist the momentum of Temur. Bayazid’s forces began to crumble and the day was won. Temur was victorious and the Tartars would celebrate their finest hour. It was a day that would echo forever more throughout the ages.


    Legacy:

    As the fever if triumph cleared Temur was faced with two serious setbacks. His most loved grandson, heir to his throne, Mohammed Sultan died from wounds in battle and his honored adversary had died in captivity. Temur ruled the lands of Chataghay and the Ilkhanate, as well as domination of his vassals the Golden Horde, the Sultan of Syria and Egypt, the Ottoman Empire, and the Byzantines, yet his plans for succession had come to not. Mohammed Sultan was brilliant and fierce on the battlefield and his death simply devastated the aging emperor. Despite these setbacks Temur was determined for one final campaign against Ming China. Victory here would bring abundant wealth, honor, and was the perfect opportunity to convert the infidels of China to Islam. If his ambitions were to be achieved Temur would become the undisputed greatest conqueror of all time. Age however would not permit such dreams. On march to China the sickly emperor would finally fall prey to his illness. Age would bring Temur defeat no mortal man had ever gotten close too. Temur, the man whom the lives of millions hung on in a fragile balance was gone and a new age of the world was in order. Before his death Temur named Pir Mohammed his successor and warned that his sons and grandsons should not make war with each other for it will only serve to weaken them to their enemies. Unfortunately for the empire Temur’s descendants would not heed his words. Pir Mohhammed would be killed before he could receive his titles and a span of inter family war broke out. In the end the last of Temur’s sons, Shahrukh would finally stabilize the empire and continue the cultural legacy his father had begun. Within a century Temur’s empire would be gone and the only remnant of his power would be revived through Babur and the founding of the Moghul dynasty in India. In modern times the name Temur is often forgotten in the West, but in the East he has become an icon, especially in Uzbekistan where he is a symbol of nationalism in a post soviet land looking for identity. Amir Temur Gurgan was truly a conqueror in the ranks of Genghis and Alexander, and a man of personal character that most men can only aspire too. Born a small boy in the steppe, he would grow to change the course of history forever.

  2. #2
    Imperialist Brit Member Orb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    very interesting stuff, I can say that I didn't know about him previously (then again, the only teacher we've had by GCSE year that did anything medieval deducted marks for my statement that the Saxon Housecarls were better soldiers than the Norman cavalry - damned British education system)


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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    the only teacher we've had by GCSE year that did anything medieval deducted marks for my statement that the Saxon Housecarls were better soldiers than the Norman cavalry
    Quite right too, if you did not qualify what you meant by better and justify the satement with reference to evidence!
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    His higness, the Sultan Member Randarkmaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    the only teacher we've had by GCSE year that did anything medieval deducted marks for my statement that the Saxon Housecarls were better soldiers than the Norman cavalry
    How do you know that they were better? They were beaten and in a way it shows that in the medieval period an army which included cavalry as well as infantry was much more powerful than one which consisted solely of infantry.
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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    Great article! Timur-i-Lenk was a great and innovative commander, certainly, and a fearsome ruler.

    But greater than Chingis Khan? Hardly. Half the man's campaigns were him doubling back to crush a revolt in his rear. His cruelty knew no bounds and many of the myths of Mongol evil stem not from the Mongols themselves but from Timur's ruthless armies. The mountains of skulls, for instance, were his idea -- not that of Chingis.

    Yet for all the fear he attempted to put into those he conquered he could not keep them placid. Timur could not do what the Mongols had done with terror, and was forced to exact multiple revenges on places he had conquered before, each renewed act of vengeance more brutal than the last, to no avail. His empire crumbled the moment word got out he was dead -- crumbled as it had been for all his life, with only his iron will and iron fist to give it a semblance of unity.

    No, Timur was in no way what Chingis Khan was. He was quite arguably a better tactician, and perhaps Chingis' equal in strategy, but whatever he did was for the short-term. Unlike Chingis, Timur enjoyed his acts of barbarity, taking pleasure out of crushing those who had opposed him, where Chingis was only hard when it availed the stability of the empire he was building. What Timur had conquered was fractured to begin with, and the only legacy he left was his squabbling sons in place of the Turko-Mongol lords he had defeated. What is that compared to the Mongol Empire?
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    Unlike Chingis, Timur enjoyed his acts of barbarity, taking pleasure out of crushing those who had opposed him, where Chingis was only hard when it availed the stability of the empire he was building.
    Well, of that we can't be sure. Like the Mongols, he also liked to minimize his losses and gave preferential treatment to those that surrendered. Life was cheap in those times anyway - not to say that there weren't infinately more humane leaders than him, but he was betrayed a hundred times over heh

    Timur started from a more precarious position than the one Temujin enjoyed and with less resources. He also faced an enemy that no European army could hope beating at the time: the Ottomans. His period wasn't the 13th century and many things had changed. It wouldn't be long before the great steppe empires became a thing of the past.
    Timur's empire afterall wasn't strictly a "steppe empire", but tried to have more sedentary elements, a fine balance that he pursued in all areas of politics and economy. He tried to please the nomad warlords and at the same time make himself look "civilized", and become the leader of the Muslim world.

    Furthermore, Timur and his descendants left behind unique works of art, even if it was financed by the blood and money of his beaten foes. Not bad though for a barbarian, one can only wonder where he acquired such fine tastes. Samarkhand after all is recognised a place of mystique and exoticism in the minds of many.
    A controversial figure indeed, not lacking neither in majesty nor in cruelty.
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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    But greater than Chingis Khan?
    Greater? Don't get me wrong, Genghis is a hero of mine, and I often view him as one of the greatest men to ever live. In many ways Temur fell short of Genghis, but I was trying to stress exactly what you just said.

    He was quite arguably a better tactician, and perhaps Chingis' equal in strategy, but whatever he did was for the short-term.
    As for the revolts etc, I agree it demonstrates his lack of ability to make a functional empire, but again, a calm empire is not something he seemed to aspire too. He was always on the road of battle and under his leadership it worked for him. It was an Empire centered around a strong center and need that strong center to continue. If Mohammed Sultan had not died shortly after Ankara I think he would have been able to stablize the empire, of course though that is simply conjecture.

    As for his cruelty, yes he did do things that were very gruesome(cementing people into a tower alive), but I dont see any indications he enjoyed it. Death was the penalty for rebellion or simply not submitting and Temur was consistant in exacting the punishments he promised. Not to mention he soldiers were dependant upon loot otherwise their loyalty to him would vaporize very quickly.

    But, no I do agree that as a man in whole Genghis was the superior.

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    Imperialist Brit Member Orb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    Randark and DoG - I agree with you, but if said teacher said that William 'cheated a bit' by drawing the Saxons down the hill... Amusingly, virtually all similar unqualified statements got marks.

    My citation was Dyrrachium, where the Varangian guard (mostly English ex-Huskarls) repelled a Norman cavalry charge. I never disputed that a combined force of infantry, cavalry and archers was stronger than one of simple infantry.

    Still, I won't spam this nice article anymore.

    The sum of what I have been taught in school on medieval history was a loose misrepresentation of Hastings which we did without any sources being given (or indeed required). Pah. Thanks to King of Atlantis for writing it.

    And according to said teacher, by a simple system of getting the class to choose who to support, said that it's obvious who the best candidate was...

    Still, it must have been three years ago, I must forget...
    Last edited by Orb; 08-30-2006 at 23:18.


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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    If well-trained and motivated (those Anglosaxon Varangians hated the Normans with a deep passion), well-armed infantry -- say, armed with the stout Danish war axe -- could stop even the mighty charge of the couched lance and the destrier. Durazzo was the first time the Normans had ever been turned back in full charge; it was enough to make them flee in terror. Too bad Sichelgaita was there to rally them... Alexius might have won the field that day if not for her.

    But we digress.
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    Which was his own fault. He lacked the diplomatical ability in Chingis that allowed the latter to carve out a lasting empire. Timur's empire was all blood and fire and steel, held together by a standing army that was second to none at the time -- but that was all. Compared to the Yeke Mongol Ulus it was not much at all.
    The funny thing is that not many can substantiate "his lack of diplomatic skills" by mentioning concrete examples and comparing them to the relevant mongol ones. For example one can mention his handling of the Tokhtamysh affair and how he failed to gain a more lasting allegiance from his allies and vassals, but this was not the 13th century. Great kingdoms had been dissolved in the meantime, powerful strongmen were ruling the rich central asian and middle eastern cities but no meaningful central authorities were to be found around there for a long time. Everyone fought for a place under the sun.
    This may have initially aided Timur, but afterwards it meant that he had no founding stones upon which a lasting political structure could be established. The Mongols were luckier in this aspect and they started their conquests from an area that may have been the subject of foreign political interventions but was not a place one would prioritize in a spree of conquests.
    And as I mentioned before, while Genghis could found his empire on meritocracy, Timur had to play with other concepts, gain legitimisation and followers in a place where theoretically one could find more suitable candidates, and also acquire prestige in the eyes of both muslims and "pagans". Should he become too soft, his allies from the steppes will happily supplant him. Should he favour them too much and overly engage in the tribal politics, he can lose support from the increasingly important part of his army who were serving under lords not very eager to see their positions undermined by steppe barbarians.

    The Ottomans were fine, yes, and powerful, indeed, but one must remember that they were not yet what they would become.
    Yes, but after Nicopolis one had to be careful not to draw the ire of Yıldırım, he gained a lot of respect and fear and faced no serious opposition in the west. Timur played his hand brillianty in the campaign that culminated with the Battle of Ancara. Doubledealings and backstabbings complemented his tactical skills.

    Timurid art was indeed fine, but it reached its zenith not under Timur himself but under his sons and descendants. Most notable of these was Husayn Bayqara, the lord of Herat. Also, Timur was the son of a Turko-Mongol chieftain, and could read and write. These men were no savages, my friend, but quite educated. Not half as educated as men like Babur would become, but a world away from the products of the 13th-century Mongol steppe.
    I know he wasn't a "barbarian", but try convincing the learned men of Syria of that small detail ;)

    Anyway, how could Timurid art reach its zenith with Timur, since he was the one who initiated the whole period. Usually it takes some time for artistic movements to reach maturity and "fullness", but I'll limit myself to one word here: Registan. Nevertheless, periods of relative peace and prosperity helped Timurid art in many ways.

    Still, I don't like comparing leaders, generals, personas etc as if they were a set of stats for a computer game. Each have their own place in history and "comparative greatness", or even "greatness" at all, is not something I'm fond of commenting. Now, for example, if someone makes a comparison to the short-lived napoleonic empire and another one retorts with Napoleon's lasting contribution to a lengthy list of domains, then I don't think a greater understanding of the person in question will be achieved. Humans work inside the personal and systemical restrictions of their time and place, and an absolute qualificative standard usually leaves me less wise (and goes in rounds).
    Some people also say that a genious is a genious, you either have it or you don't, although the nature of ingeniousness differs.
    Last edited by L'Impresario; 08-31-2006 at 16:21.
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  11. #11
    Savior of Peasant Phill Member Silver Rusher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    Quote Originally Posted by Orb
    very interesting stuff, I can say that I didn't know about him previously (then again, the only teacher we've had by GCSE year that did anything medieval deducted marks for my statement that the Saxon Housecarls were better soldiers than the Norman cavalry - damned British education system)
    Quit yer complaining. I had a teacher once who thought Ivan the Terrible lived 2000 years ago.
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    Earl Of Warwick/Wannabe Tuareg Member beauchamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    Timur was amazing, but I think that the conqueror most unrecognized was Nadir Shah, the conqueror from Afganistan who conqered Persia during their decline in the 1750's, deafeated the Uzbeks, Ottomans, and Indians, sacking Dehli and taking the Khoor-I-Noor diamond. He was also a madman, spending his entire funds and those of the state to sponser his gigantic army and navy. He even fought in his own battles, causing tons of havic with his tabar (axe). Im surprised that he's so unrecognized, but I think that he is up their with Timur in terms of empire size and sheer military strength.


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  13. #13
    Savior of Peasant Phill Member Silver Rusher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    Quote Originally Posted by beauchamp
    Timur was amazing, but I think that the conqueror most unrecognized was Nadir Shah, the conqueror from Afganistan who conqered Persia during their decline in the 1750's, deafeated the Uzbeks, Ottomans, and Indians, sacking Dehli and taking the Khoor-I-Noor diamond. He was also a madman, spending his entire funds and those of the state to sponser his gigantic army and navy. He even fought in his own battles, causing tons of havic with his tabar (axe). Im surprised that he's so unrecognized, but I think that he is up their with Timur in terms of empire size and sheer military strength.
    If only he had lived longer, maybe then his omfg army would have conquered the world.
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  14. #14
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amir Temur Gurgan

    Quote Originally Posted by beauchamp
    but I think that he is up their with Timur in terms of empire size and sheer military strength.
    On that account I disagree. In terms of actual borders they were probably on about equal footing, however Temur's actual borders do not properly represent his conquests. He forced the Ottomans, Abbasids, and Golden Horde to all pay homage to him. Truth is while he had utterly defeated this peoples on the battlefield he was too ineffective as an administrator to ever hope to rule these lands directly. Thus a system of vassal rulers was widely used.


    If you take into account this map it makes Temur's conquests seem much more grandeur.

  15. #15
    It was a trap, after all. Member DukeofSerbia's Avatar
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    Thumbs up From Serbia with love

    I just read one historical text and Timur is often mentioned.

    Konstantin Mihailovic “Janissary’s memories or Turkish chronicle – Description of events related to Turkish questions from Konstantin Mihailovic, Rascian (Serbs) from Ostrovica, who Turks took into Janissaries”

    This primary source is from XVI century, but there is no original unfortunately, only copies.

    Chapter XIX

    And when he wanted to conquer town Kapli, he first send in town Tatar’s merchants with goods, like hides from sable, marten and other expensive hides to sell those goods cheap. And when those people see how they are cheap, everybody bought it for everything they had. And when merchants brought money from sell, then he started siege of town. And he did it because to prevent people to dig their treasuries. Then he conquered this town and took hides back. And when he besieged towns, first day he had white tents, second red and third black. And that means: if the first day people or town gives up, he left them alive in their property. If they did it second day, then he ordered that all slaughter or stamp by horses. And if they even didn’t surrender third day, then he ordered that whole town burn. He left two sons behind him, who fought against each other for rule and that’s why their country didn’t expanded.

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