Israel kills to Maintain Blockade

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Originally Posted by Brenus

What? Israel KNEW this boat was full of very armed and dangerous terrorists and they sent few soldiers, one by one on a rope with paint balls riffles and didn't storm the boats with a fully and well trained unit?:inquisitive:
How unprofessional Tsahal became...:laugh4::laugh4:

What a lot of ..... compost.:laugh4:

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No they couldn't know that's the point, and as it turns out they were right to board the ship. It naturally isn't going to change TEH TRUTH, But still. peace activists don't have kevlar and night-goggles unless they are extremely peaceful, the Hamas-type of peace

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and as it turns out they were right to board the ship.

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I do not regard murdering students on international water as being complient with international law.

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Originally Posted by Hax

I do not regard murdering students on international water as being complient with international law.

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What murder, people died. And this boarding was very much legal under international law. If a few were in fact peaceful they deserve the Darwin award but not our sympathy. All things considered, it was their aim to breach a blockade to deliver unknown cargo to people Israel is at war with (all destribution is done by Hamas, who ironically refused the cargo)

In some ways it's like a nautical Boston Massacre. Although in reality, the Colonists hurled abuse at the massively outnumbered British redcoats, and demanded that they fire, the popular perception is one of Imperial Stormtroopers marching in and gunning down everything (Uh, five people) in their path, winning widespread support for the protesters cause.

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Originally Posted by Subotan

In some ways it's like a nautical Boston Massacre. Although in reality, the Colonists hurled abuse at the massively outnumbered British redcoats, and demanded that they fire, the popular perception is one of Imperial Stormtroopers marching in and gunning down everything (Uh, five people) in their path, winning widespread support for the protesters cause.

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Who are you and what did you do to Subotan

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default...=178&nid=21219

I am surprised they are surprised that leftist europeans who want nothing but peace go berserk when they see jews despite being treated well. They have moral outrage it burns their brains they can't help it, they are rightious and the rest are facists. Happens every time, random attacks, broken windows. The first anti-jewish demonstration that didn't get completely out of hand has yet to be held. Of course they are only against Israel, really. That is why jews get attacked here. Makes sense?

MUHA absolutely awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG...eature=channel

Sooooooooooooooooo incredibly true

Well done mia muca's, a bursting laugh and a sad tear from Holland.

We'll make the woooooooorld abandon reeeeeeeason

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Originally Posted by Fragony

MUHA absolutely awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG...eature=channel

Sooooooooooooooooo incredibly true

Well done mia muca's, a bursting laugh and a sad tear from Holland.

We'll make the woooooooorld abandon reeeeeeeason

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haha, i like the vid, good find.

Fraggles, not everybody here is saying that the people on the ship were peaceful teddybears, a lot of people are young or old and stupid at some point in their lives, if it means they had intercourse 200 of these uhm non-men or what they're called or got drunk every night, passed out twice every weekend and had bar brawls, it's a bragging right, if it means they had some ideals and went on a stupid relief ship and got worked up as a group it means they should be shot just because the israeli navy is too stupid to do a proper boarding operation???
There is such a thing as crowd control, handling procedures etc. in most countries but in Israel the MO seems to be just drop in some men, shoot some people if necessary, if thery clobber your men to death instead, get more men/blow up the entire ship or whatever they would have done next...
Is that really the best they can come up with?

So the next time some ultra-orthodox jews throw stones at other people trying to kill them, will/should the israeli police just shoot these idiots?

@Fragony: good find.
@Husar: agreed. What's so hard for Israeli navy that at least one half decent police force on the world pulls off in any given week at a local football match? Those hooligans aren't exactly peaceful supporters of their club either.

comparing this event to boarding a fishing vessel in the baltic of a crowd control event in the settlements is a VERY poor show all round.

it is accepted that it was a poorly conducted mission, but -

the 'peace' activists allegedly attempted to bring down the helicopter by attaching the fast-rope to the ship, this meant that the rope had to be cut, leaving the soldiers on the deck with no support and no exit from a mob wielding iron bars.
they were in mortal threat with only one means of surviving; the use of their side-arms. and thus did 'peace' activists die.

talks of people being murdered is rank stupidity and deserves a "Shut Up!"

Dear Hussie if everybody hates you no matter what you do, you better be as vicious as is unhumanly possible. Israel isn't, not even remotely. I would have sank each and every one of them, open a bottle of good wine once I got home, and never look back.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

the 'peace' activists allegedly attempted to bring down the helicopter by attaching the fast-rope to the ship, this meant that the rope had to be cut, leaving the soldiers on the deck with support and no exit from a mob wielding iron bars.
they were in mortal threat with only one means of surviving; the use of their sidearms. and thus did 'peace' activists die.

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Why use a helicopter in the first place? Because if they got 50km off the coast before a ship caught up they could have thrown their sticks and chairs onto israeli cities?

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

talks of people being murdered is rank stupidity and deserves a "STFU!"

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They weren't being murdered, there are just people thinking that had the israeli navy not used a helicopter or stopped using a helicopter once they saw an angry mob down there, and then come with a big ship, pointed a few guns in the general direction of the mob, told them to calm down, then boarded the ship properly, this could have been prevented. Had the whole thing then happened in internationally agreed upon israeli territorial waters and the m,ob had still been angry and they had gunned down the whole angry mob, I'd say that's a clear-cut victory for israel and the mob was just stupid, but that's not what happened and I am certainly not to blame for it.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Dear Hussie if everybody hates you no matter what you do, you better be as vicious as is unhumanly possible. Israel isn't, not even remotely. I would have sank each and every one of them, open a bottle of good wine once I got home, and never look back.

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Have you ever killed someone? Have you ever done something stupid?

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

comparing this event to boarding a fishing vessel in the baltic of a crowd control event in the settlements is a VERY poor show all round.

it is accepted that it was a poorly conducted mission, but -

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No it isn't. If the Israeli's had put up a similar performance to crowd-control a bunch of hooligans they'd been attacked with metal bars, knives, and possibly even guns just the same way. If the Israeli's had put up a similar performance on a Russian vessel with a crew seriously pissed off about it that helicopter had probably been brought down because fishing vessels have numerous pieces of equipment to put an end to that sort of nonsense far too quickly for a rope to be cut.

So it's fail on a level that transcends this particular incident. It's fail that's so epic it can be used to define the notion of fail. Do you now see where I'm coming from?

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they were in mortal threat with only one means of surviving; the use of their sidearms. and thus did 'peace' activists die.

talks of people being murdered is rank stupidity and deserves a "STFU!"

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Obviously. I have not seen a single post condemning the individual soldiers who shot those “activists”, nor have I seen a single post that extolls the idea that the lynching of a few people is an OK thing to do when your ship is being boarded (or otherwise).

you must have missed this one at least then tellos:

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Originally Posted by Hax

I do not regard murdering students on international water as being complient with international law.

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Originally Posted by Subotan

In some ways it's like a nautical Boston Massacre. Although in reality, the Colonists hurled abuse

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and ice balls and broken oyster/clam shells and garbage

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Originally Posted by Subotan

at the massively outnumbered British redcoats, and demanded that they fire, the popular perception is one of Imperial Stormtroopers marching in and gunning down everything (Uh, five people) in their path, winning widespread support for the protesters cause.

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Quite true, though I have always been proud of the fact that the soldiers were acquitted. Only the officers were judged as liable for failing to maintain control over their troops. Sam did spin-doctor the incident into a major hoopla that truly did motivate people to work against England. I am pretty certain that that is one component of the current incident as well.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Have you ever killed someone?

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No but I most certainly will if I have to, hopefully. For a country like Israel there is kinda more at stake than our salonfahige aproval stamp.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Fraggles, not everybody here is saying that the people on the ship were peaceful teddybears, a lot of people are young or old and stupid at some point in their lives,

if it means they had some ideals and went on a stupid relief ship and got worked up as a group it means they should be shot just because the israeli navy is too stupid to do a proper boarding operation???

There is such a thing as crowd control, handling procedures etc. in most countries but in Israel the MO seems to be just drop in some men, shoot some people

Is that really the best they can come up with?

So the next time some ultra-orthodox jews throw stones at other people trying to kill them, will/should the israeli police just shoot these idiots?

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:love:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Dear Hussie if everybody hates you no matter what you do, you better be as vicious as is unhumanly possible. Israel isn't, not even remotely. I would have sank each and every one of them, open a bottle of good wine once I got home, and never look back.

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Then I am sad for you, sir, very sad and will pray for the easing of your anger.

My previous pastor discussed this in a homily at the time of the Iraqi invasion. Taking a measure of satisfaction from defending your country or from the success of those defending your nation against a threat is appropriate -- as is thankfulness for the harms thereby prevented as well. But taking joy in such an event? That is a harm against your own soul and a discredit to the humanity of those who were harmed.

One should do what is needful, not revel in it.

Fragony certainly has done something stupid in my book when he wrote:

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Dear Hussie if everybody hates you no matter what you do, you better be as vicious as is unhumanly possible. Israel isn't, not even remotely. I would have sank each and every one of them, open a bottle of good wine once I got home, and never look back.

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You got to live in the wrong society. It's obvious: Hamas needs you. Black Widows need you (they have jobs for male hostage takers too). Just apply, they probably have a job description: “Urgent need someone without compunction, screw 'em type approach: doesn't care how many we kill. Working hours and pay rates on request. We regret that all work is undertaken at applicant's own risk.”. Maybe the lovelies from Al Qaeda or Taliban would like to have you too. Or FARC, or the Columbian para-military militia-type terror cells (they do unto the FARC and people they don't like what the FARC does unto them and people the FARC doesn't like) if you think the FARC is too lefty for your liking.

You don't agree? Those are organizations that work exactly as you describe and stem from exactly the same type of reasoning: everyone hates us anyway, so let's just kill everyone who gets in our way.

@Furunculus: Yes. Bit weird because I thought it kind of settled that the real troublemakers clearly were not students or event “activists”. Agitators at best, and according to Fragony's link mercenaries at worst.

You are looking for reason, but there's only hate. In such an irrational world it's better to be feared then to be liked. There will never be peace, don't have to like it.

edit that sounds much more hostile then I am, I would never harm anyone. But it's simply an undeniable truth that the destruction of Israel is their goal, they don't even lie about that. Checkpoints & walls, big deal, what else? A state? They don't even want a state BECAUSE of international law. And do you guys seriously think it woul be allowed, it's a political goldmine for other nations, at least they are pissed at somebody else.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default...=178&nid=21215

Leftist people know it simply isn't true, it isn't what they agreed, but more and more is getting out.

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I'm not ready to speak for this monolithic "the left" that you keep having arguments with, but I'm willing to inject some objective reality. The news release from the IDF which you link to was redacted. Yesterday. Long before you re-posted it. So either you are willfully misleading everyone, or you aren't staying up on the issue. Some details:

Israel-based freelance reporter Lia Tarachansky and I called the IDF press office to ask for more conclusive evidence. Tarachansky reached the IDF’s Israel desk, interviewing a spokesperson in Hebrew; I spoke with the North America desk, using English. We both received the same reply from Army spokespeople: “We don’t have any evidence. The press release was based on information from the [Israeli] National Security Council.” (The Israeli National Security Council is Netanyahu’s kitchen cabinet of advisors).

Today, the Israeli Army’s press office changed the headline of its press release (see below), basically retracting its claim about the flotilla’s Al Qaeda links. The new headline reads: “Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found Without Identification Papers” (the top of the browser screen still contains the original headline about Al Qaeda). The more Israel’s claims about the flotilla’s terrorist links are challenged, the more they fall apart.

Nope I didn't catch up on that one, still a lot of meanies though even without them

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Originally Posted by Fragony

No but I most certainly will if I have to, hopefully. For a country like Israel there is kinda more at stake than our salonfahige aproval stamp.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

[...] I would never harm anyone.

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You see, that's why, when I try to explain what I think, it usually becomes a long post, because what we do is so very context-sensitive it's really hard to say, there are a few guidelines but sometimes they go right out the window the moment that situation comes along.
And you may want to explain how that particular convoy threatened the existence of Israel? If they found a big stash of RPGs or nukes in the convoy, why hasn't that made the headlines yet?

One things for sure the next flotilla will probably have over a 100 boats in it, after that the blockade will be lifted and a proper procedure for inspecting boats in the ports of Gaza will be implemented.

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Originally Posted by Husar

You see, that's why, when I try to explain what I think, it usually becomes a long post, because what we do is so very context-sensitive it's really hard to say, there are a few guidelines but sometimes they go right out the window the moment that situation comes along.
And you may want to explain how that particular convoy threatened the existence of Israel? If they found a big stash of RPGs or nukes in the convoy, why hasn't that made the headlines yet?

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Besides finding 6 tons of weaponry last time?

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

One things for sure the next flotilla will probably have over a 100 boats in it, after that the blockade will be lifted and a proper procedure for inspecting boats in the ports of Gaza will be implemented.

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I guess you think it's fun

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Originally Posted by Husar

You see, that's why, when I try to explain what I think, it usually becomes a long post, because what we do is so very context-sensitive it's really hard to say, there are a few guidelines but sometimes they go right out the window the moment that situation comes along.
And you may want to explain how that particular convoy threatened the existence of Israel? If they found a big stash of RPGs or nukes in the convoy, why hasn't that made the headlines yet?

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Oh come on, Husar. You know darned well that this particular convoy was kitted out as clean as the driven snow in terms of cargo. The group organizing this fomented an incident and they wanted Israel to look like a bunch of jerks when they were stopped. Doesn't mean that previous or subsequent supply efforts won't -- only that this one was a set-up.

Between sloppy procedures and a cargo made for TV, the Israelis have obligingly pulled it out and stepped on it again -- with the golf cleats. Somewhere in Gaza, they're probably still exchanging toasts like: "To the IDF, what a bunch of predictable maroons...."

“peace activists don't have kevlar” Er, I had in Bosnia, as Humanitarian. When you go in a danger zone, you don,t count ONLY on your good will and intention as protection. I even built a bunker in Yemen (not by my own, mind you)…

“And this boarding was very much legal under international law”. If you except the fact that the blocus itself isn’t legal, of course.

“the 'peace' activists allegedly attempted to bring down the helicopter by attaching the fast-rope to the ship, this meant that the rope had to be cut, leaving the soldiers on the deck with no support and no exit from a mob wielding iron bars.”
Do you relly believe in this? Do you really believe that you can put down an helicoptere with a rope? Did you try to board an helicoptere and experiment the wind?
Well, the soldiers have just to jump over board, then being rescued by the helicopter. Lost of dignity, but not life.
Then the Navy would have come and in case, would have done like all more or less normal navies do in this kind of situation…

I would make a fool out of me if I questioned your judgement. you are a pro. But they were looking for confrontation that is the political phere.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I would make a fool out of me if I questioned your judgement. you are a pro. But they were looking for confrontation that is the political phere.

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So is every other demonstrator.

Yet they never die on the streets of London, Berlin or Copenhagen.