Ukraine-in-a-thread

“total disregard of the evidence others expose.” Never. But the fact is you never gave evidences.

“like Putin admiring Goebbels” Can’t find any credible link, Can you provide one, I am interested in this. By the way, I am not Putin’s supporter. I am again the lies and deception and the not-really-well -placed Western moral high grounds

“And one more thing - on Nazi symbolism”: You are just discovering that Nazi Symbolism is based on old and ancient symbols? Really?

“Or would do if they didn't have our redoubtable Brenus to oppose them.” I leave to you with your choice of word in a vain attempt of mockery, but be sure that yes, I will fight the Nazi with the means I have at my disposal. Can’t fight them any more with weapons, but I will fight where I can find them.

“See how much you have progressed since spring” You really don’t read others’ comments, do you? Or you just translate the words in your mental world and read only what you seek?

“you denied the veracity of medals they received” No pictures of one soldier having one on his chest, but you carry on with this fable…

“And I say nothing of the plane brought down - everybody (not only you) seemed to have forgotten and forgiven the perpetrators and their sponsors.” Because the unfortunate event has nothing to do with the political situation? A bit like this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-airliner.html

“when another is asked, don't interfere".” :laugh4: You remind me my grand-daughter telling her big sister “it was you I talking to”:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Husar

How do you know that I was talking about all the volunteer units?
Hint: I wasn't.

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Then you should have been more specific and named the units you were hinting at. I was talking about such battalions as Azov, Donbas, Aidar, Shakhtarsk, Kiyevskaya Rus, Artemovsk, Kyiv-1, Dnipro and others. They are volunteer battalions within MVD. If you mean others, put a name on them.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“like Putin admiring Goebbels” Can’t find any credible link, Can you provide one, I am interested in this.

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Read his lips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLEOlA5O8aw
Can't help it: I POSTED THIS VIDEO THE DAY AFTER PUTIN SAID IT. TRY TO BE MORE ATTENTIVE READING THE THREAD (unless it is too dead to keep coming to it).

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“And one more thing - on Nazi symbolism”: You are just discovering that Nazi Symbolism is based on old and ancient symbols? Really?

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Let me quote yourself:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

... a vain attempt of mockery...

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You again don't get the point (or are pretending not to to exasperate me): I gave the examples of what you consider nazi symbols on modern coats-of-arms of some towns in Germany. Why do the same symbols evoke so much antipathy if they are spotted on the sleeves of uniforms and are OK if they are elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

be sure that yes, I will fight the Nazi with the means I have at my disposal. Can’t fight them any more with weapons, but I will fight where I can find them.

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Then do fight. Because (to paraphrase someone) it is September 17 and French nazis are still in the European parliament.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“you denied the veracity of medals they received” No pictures of one soldier having one on his chest, but you carry on with this fable…

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Everybody saw the medals. I told you why they can't be openly seen on soldiers. And I'm not going to search 20 pages back to repeat all the arguments. But it is Brenus all over: unless I see a mercenary openly admitting (on Russia Today) his having a contract I wouldn't believe it. And even if there is some open admission (like Putin admitting that Russian army was instrumental (to put it mildly) in capturing Crimea) you persist in denying it. Now who's being childish - me or the one who says I wouldn't believe stars are hot until I touch them with my own hands?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“And I say nothing of the plane brought down - everybody (not only you) seemed to have forgotten and forgiven the perpetrators and their sponsors.” Because the unfortunate event has nothing to do with the political situation?

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Oh really? So the political situation in Ukraine (namely in Donbas) at the end of July had nothing to do with the accident? The next thing you will be saying is that even if there was no armed conflict in Donbas the plane would have still been brought down?
Somehow the horrendous and atrocious MP bullying keeps popping up now and then although it has been more than half a year ago (and deserves hanging by private parts, no doubt), but such a trifle as 300 people killed is just an unfortunate event to be sorry about and try to forget.

If you haven't heard about the law passed:
http://lifeinua.info/laws-special-st...onbas-amnesty/

“you persist in denying it.” Do tell me where and when I “deny” Russian’s Intervention? I even compared it to air strikes… So, try again.

“Everybody saw the medals.” Nope, everybody saw a medal shown by a Ukrainian Central Government sympathiser pretending it was an official medal. As far as we know, he might have done it himself.
Let me explain how medal are given to soldiers: All the Regiment is in parade. Then the Head of the Regiment call the names of the receiver(s). Then, the Unit presents arms; Then a brief bugle to open the ceremony; One step forward, then, the Colonel (or General depending of the rank of the award) read a short message (on the order of the President of the Republic and the Chief of the Army, the medal of etc.), then salute, then he put on the chest the medal (with ruban), then one step backward, salute, then other one step forward and so and so. This with all cameras from the Regiment PR and families and friends flashing. So until now, you were not able to provide ONE picture of the delivery Ceremony. Because it never happened, because this medal never exist, for the good reason that the annexation of Crimea cannot be counted as a campaign, but probably as an exercise even not difficult.
Another option would be that it was so easy to earn it that not decent soldier would dare to show it…

“So the political situation in Ukraine (namely in Donbas) at the end of July had nothing to do with the accident?” Nope, it is because a civil war was raging (due to political unrest) where one side was using air power that the plane was shot down. It was a mistake, not a political or military target: so irrelevant in term of negotiation.

“If you haven't heard about the law passed”: Yeah, saw this, I just hope the Russian Extremists will not prevail and common sense will come back in both sides.

About the link, can’t read the lips, of course, so I can see Putin saying his admiration for Goebbels in front of Jewish representatives? Right? And it is the proof of Putin being a Nazi?
So, try again, a convincing link.

“if they are spotted on the sleeves of uniforms” The last word is a clue.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Somehow the horrendous and atrocious MP bullying keeps popping up now and then although it has been more than half a year ago (and deserves hanging by private parts, no doubt), but such a trifle as 300 people killed is just an unfortunate event to be sorry about and try to forget.

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There's a difference between an accident and a premeditated, organized and violent perversion of the democratic process.

Furthermore, the latter brought a much heavier toll in casualties, not to mention incalculable damage to society in Ukraine as a whole.

Perhaps this should be handled via a champions contest. All agree to abide by the results.

100 persons on each side. Vodka shots at one shot per 5 minutes. Each shot is followed by an oral questioning. Last side with a person standing and able to answer multiplication table (1*1 through 12*12 inclusive) question wins.

A thoroughly Eastern-European resolution alternative.


EDIT: In the unlikely event of a perfect "draw" decision, sober them up, divide them into squads of 4 and have them play badminton matches -- highest out of 25 wins. Since neither is a badminton power, it should be fair (yes, the Russians medaled, but those chica's couldn't contribute well enough in the vodka portion to stay on the champions squad).

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Perhaps this should be handled via a champions contest. All agree to abide by the results.

100 persons on each side. Vodka shots at one shot per 5 minutes. Each shot is followed by an oral questioning. Last side with a person standing and able to answer multiplication table (1*1 through 12*12 inclusive) question wins.

A thoroughly Eastern-European resolution alternative.


EDIT: In the unlikely event of a perfect "draw" decision, sober them up, divide them into squads of 4 and have them play badminton matches -- highest out of 25 wins. Since neither is a badminton power, it should be fair (yes, the Russians medaled, but those chica's couldn't contribute well enough in the vodka portion to stay on the champions squad).

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I see a flaw already - how are you going to make them drink only one shot of vodka in 5 minutes?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“you persist in denying it.” Do tell me where and when I “deny” Russian’s Intervention? I even compared it to air strikes… So, try again.

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Here you go:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“So, Russian tanks driven by Russian soldiers crossing the border doesn't count as an invasion?” No, that is an incursion as they went back. A little bit similar of air strikes, helping the ones you support…

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Thus you deny INVASION not INTERVENTION (the latter was there since the Crimea annexation), which was the point I was making. And the invasion is not over - 4 battallions of Russains are still in eastern Ukraine, as Ukrainian intelligence says.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“Everybody saw the medals.” Nope, everybody saw a medal shown by a Ukrainian Central Government sympathiser pretending it was an official medal. As far as we know, he might have done it himself.
Let me explain how medal are given to soldiers...

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Whatever picture you may paint it may be true for decent countries in decent times.
I told you why the medals in question couldn't be given the way you described and I won't repeat myself. So your piece of picturesque writing turned out useless.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“So the political situation in Ukraine (namely in Donbas) at the end of July had nothing to do with the accident?” Nope, it is because a civil war was raging (due to political unrest) ..

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The key word is political, thus political situation in Ukraine was ultimately what caused the accident.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“If you haven't heard about the law passed”: Yeah, saw this, I just hope the Russian Extremists will not prevail and common sense will come back in both sides.

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You hoped (or sometimes were even sure) that Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine and we see the result. I think your hope this time will be vain again.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

About the link, can’t read the lips, of course, so I can see Putin saying his admiration for Goebbels in front of Jewish representatives? Right? And it is the proof of Putin being a Nazi?

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If Tyagnybok said that Goebbels was a talented man who always got what he wanted, wouldn't it serve you as a proof of him being a nazi? You are the one who sets a great stock by what people say, wear or march with. Or do you apply double standards again: someone called a braintank after Goebbels so he is a nazi, another admires him, but he is not?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

There's a difference between an accident and a premeditated, organized and violent perversion of the democratic process.

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Tell it to the families of those who died in the crash. I'm sure they would be delighted to know that it was just an accident not worth any punishment since it violated no rules of democracy.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Tell it to the families of those who died in the crash. I'm sure they would be delighted to know that it was just an accident not worth any punishment since it violated no rules of democracy.

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Appealing to emotion now, are we?

Try harder.

“as Ukrainian intelligence says.” And they said a lot of things, mostly from Social net-work…

“Thus you deny INVASION not INTERVENTION” Err, yeah, that was my point. As Crimea is concerned, the Russian Troops were there, so it was annexing, and even there I said it was helped by some special forces, most probably. So, where is your argument?

“I told you why the medals in question couldn't be given the way you described and I won't repeat myself.” So you have no proofs, evidences or hints to whom, what, when and how, but you still pretend it exists. I have more proofs of the existence of Fairies and Unicorns, I saw pictures on my grand-daughters’ books.

“that Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine” Ohh, you are under the Russian boots? No. So I was right, and you are wrong, but it is as usual.

“If Tyagnybok said that Goebbels was a talented man who always got what he wanted” Nope. The fact that Goebbels was a master of propaganda is I think universally admitted. Some even go as far to say he is the inventor of modern communication. So try again.

“I'm sure they would be delighted to know that it was just an accident not worth any punishment since it violated no rules of democracy.” Ridiculous.
What was the punishment of the Ukrainian crew who shot down the Russian Plane?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“Thus you deny INVASION not INTERVENTION” Err, yeah, that was my point. As Crimea is concerned, the Russian Troops were there, so it was annexing, and even there I said it was helped by some special forces, most probably. So, where is your argument?

“I was speaking of Russia as an invading state so Russian soldiers who constitute the bulk of the invading army from the invading state are invaders. Am I now clear?” But this Army exists only in your imagination.

“as Ukrainian intelligence says.” And they said a lot of things, mostly from Social net-work…

“that Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine” Ohh, you are under the Russian boots? No. So I was right, and you are wrong, but it is as usual.

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You don't know anything for certain, you can base your judgement only on circumstancial evidence (as all of us do), yet you claim that you are right. You can forward the same statements on knowing who killed JFK and be sure you are right. Oh omniscient and infallible you, we all must bow down to you (and especially to your prediction skills).
Meanwhile, those who are not yet under your enchantment (or should I say bewitchment?) may see that Council of Europe is of the like mind with the Ukrainian intelligence:
http://hub.coe.int/en/web/coe-portal...pager.offset=0
They call to withdraw Russian troops from Ukraine so the conclusion is that there ARE some.

“Oh omniscient and infallible you, we all must bow down to you (and especially to your prediction skills).” :laugh4::laugh4: I speak about the fact about Putin’s intention about Ukraine. I was right and you are wrong. Not that Putin can’t change his mind, but until now, you are not facing a full scale invasion type Iraq/Afghanistan. Nothing about prediction’s skill, but a more or less clear analyse of economical/geo/strategical analyse than yours and apparently the Council of Europe.

“They call to withdraw Russian troops from Ukraine so the conclusion is that there ARE some.” First, I suggest you to check what is the Council of Europe, then we can discuss how they can get such information…

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Originally Posted by Brenus

I speak about the fact about Putin’s intention about Ukraine. I was right and you are wrong. Not that Putin can’t change his mind, but until now, you are not facing a full scale invasion type Iraq/Afghanistan. Nothing about prediction’s skill, but a more or less clear analyse of economical/geo/strategical analyse than yours and apparently the Council of Europe.

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O-ho, so now you admit the invasion, but it's not too full-scale for you to really worry about? At first you predicited no invasion whatsoever, now it is the scale of it that lets you claim you are right.
I see that it is useless trying to have you pay attention to something that doesn't fit your picture of events. Like I said before, a person has an emotionally-motivated filter which "gets installed' at the first encounter with the news. When later developments are funneled through this filter, everything that doesn't fit its grid is sifted out. In your case it amounts to not trusting whatever the Ukrainian side says and claiming to adopt a non-biased point of view. But what do we have in effect? Ukraine says there were medals and you side with Russia who says there weren't, Ukraine says there are Russian weapons and mercenaries in Donbas, you agree with Russia who says there aren't, you (like Russia) is sure Ukraine is ruled by Nazi junta and "Russian minorities" and Russian-speakers are being oppressed in Ukraine, you together with Russia deny the presence of Russian regular army in Donbas in spite of the contrary claims and evidence offered by Ukraine, Council of Europe, NATO, the USA, and now Germany:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/germa...ine-1410813621.
Your impartial and unbiased position on all the key points happens to follow the wake of Russian propaganda. So making you see what you can't because you don't want to is like telling a person wearing sunglasses to enjoy the play of light and shadow in Laurent Parcelier's pictures.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Okay, okay.... So ww3 probably isn't going to break out over Ukraine! That's the good news. Bad news is, looks like Russia won. Hard to term the latest political concessions from Kiev as anything other than concessions. Most importantly, those concessions were won by (Russia's!) force of arms. The effects that the conflict will have on the region and maybe the world over the next several years may be more interesting than the conflict itself, if it is in fact over. And it may not be, as this would be a settlement that lacks closure.

:thinking2:

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I think you misinterpret the consequences of the concessions offered in the adopted laws (On special status of some areas of Donetsk and Lugansk regions and On amnesty). There are no concessions because for Ukraine to introduce them the separatists must agree to them, which they won't. Feeling the more than palpable support from Russia separatists are bent on pushing the game further and further, they disregard the ceasefire and storm (to speak nothing of shelling) the aiport of Donetsk, Debaltseve, Shchastya and other positions the army holds to expand the territory of Lugandon (the derogatory name for the "People's republics", echoing the Ukrainian four-letter word signifying "condom"). Moreover, some groups of the separatists don't acknowledge any ceasefire and in fact do not obey orders from the leaders of Lugandon - for instance, the city of Stakhanov proclaimed Stakhanov cossack republic as an independent state.
The adopted laws are the laws of Ukraine which means that Ukraine must have some bodies that can see to it that the laws are enforced. How can these laws be enforced on the territories not controlled by Ukraine? Ukraine regularly issues laws and ordinances concerning Crimea, and they are void. Moreover, Yatsenyuk explicitly said that Ukraine would not restore the ruined infrastructure nor pay any pensions, salaries or other social payments in the areas it doesn't control. The same with prospective local elections in December. Will Central Electoral Board of Ukraine organize them in Lugandon? Will local electoral boards contain representatives of different parties (as stipulated by the electoral law), for example, Svoboda, Batkivshchina, or any other all-national party (except Communists, no doubt)? Will there be any international observers (except from Russia which is certain to claim that any elections in Lugandon are transparent and fair)? So if such elections happen Ukraine will not acknowledge their results. The same with the promised economic and language preferences - Lugandon doesn't need concessions where it has a full control, so agreeing to them would deprive its leaders of the unlimited powers they already enjoy. So the separatists will not relinquish their grasp on the area, nor will they suffer the control of the border with Russia by OSCE still less by Ukraine (as the Minsk agreements demand it), nor will they disband or evict "the illegal armed units".
The whole situation is likely to freeze over at the stage both sides are having now (if Ukrainians have enough strength to oppose the crawling offensive of the Russia-backed separatists) and get bogged in endless negotiations and lip service. Like it was with Abkhasia.

Why does everybody think I'm going to pay for a subscription to view the articles they link to these days?
Let's hope Putin installs the USSR again, then all the articles belong to everybody.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Why does everybody think I'm going to pay for a subscription to view the articles they link to these days?
Let's hope Putin installs the USSR again, then all the articles belong to everybody.

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If you mean the article I linked then I'm sorry you can't read the full of it (neither can I), but I think its not that important for the purpose I linked it since its message is clear from the first lines you can view. And I'm sure a German can find the corresponding statement by Merkel elsewhere (and give us a free link ~;)).
And if Putin installs the USSR then the articles aren't gonna be free for Germans - you are under his sanctions, remember? And even if he lets you read them their price will equal the gas prices (he will still need to sell it somewhere) unless Schroeder somehow placates him.

“O-ho, so now you admit the invasion” You should really learn to read: No invasion of Ukraine. Is it clear? You are not, or media didn’t report it, invaded. Intervention with special forces is not invasion. Or NATO invasions figures should be up-graded, i.e. no invasion of Libya, Syria, or Chad, Central Africa and others. Is it clear now?

“At first you predicted “ I don’t predict, I am not Paul Muad’bid Atreides. If your read Dune.

“Ukraine, Council of Europe, NATO, the USA, and now Germany” Still not one shadow of a proof mind you, but carry on to relay the Ukrainian Proof by Social Network. “

“except Communists, no doubt”: Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“O-ho, so now you admit the invasion” You should really learn to read: No invasion of Ukraine. Is it clear? You are not, or media didn’t report it, invaded. Intervention with special forces is not invasion. Or NATO invasions figures should be up-graded, i.e. no invasion of Libya, Syria, or Chad, Central Africa and others. Is it clear now?

“At first you predicted “ I don’t predict, I am not Paul Muad’bid Atreides. If your read Dune.

“Ukraine, Council of Europe, NATO, the USA, and now Germany” Still not one shadow of a proof mind you, but carry on to relay the Ukrainian Proof by Social Network. “

“except Communists, no doubt”: Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...

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Pffft.

Ukraine may not be super-awesome-democracy but get real man. The Russians invaded.

Hey BBC has a great timeline on the crisis, what was offered by Kiev the day before armed gunmen cropped up?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Increased autonomy.

Weird.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Pffft.

Ukraine may not be super-awesome-democracy but get real man. The Russians invaded.

Hey BBC has a great timeline on the crisis, what was offered by Kiev the day before armed gunmen cropped up?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Increased autonomy.

Weird.

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It was never officially offered. It was more of "yes, we'd willing to consider that option sometime in the future, if stars align properly at some point". During that rhetoric, Kiev was busy instigating riots in the east to replace current governors with those loyal to new central government.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Intervention with special forces is not invasion. Or NATO invasions figures should be up-graded, i.e. no invasion of Libya, Syria, or Chad, Central Africa and others. Is it clear now?

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What do you mean by special forces? I understand special forces as mobile platoons of GRU or other Spetznaz (like those that stormed Central Police Department of Slovyansk - I think you saw the video). They are elite and can't "get lost" as it happened with the Russian military (as Putin has it and you seem to believe him). Ukraine was attacked by 6 tactic battalion groups (numbering by different estimates from 6 to 10 thousand) which included both paratroopers and ordinary motorized infantry units together with tanks, APCs, Grads, Uragans, air defense systems and what not (except planes). Are these not regular (not special) armed forces?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“At first you predicted “ I don’t predict, I am not Paul Muad’bid Atreides. If your read Dune.

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First of all, I haven't.
Second of all, Sarmatian was explicit enough in his demand: one can't involve fiction in this thread to exemplify something or compare it to the real life events. If you manage to obtain his permission, we'll have a fiction-related duel some day.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“except Communists, no doubt”: Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...

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:no: Again Brenus tells a lie (which he no doubt drew from his reliable sources): it was the faction of the Communist party in the parliament that was disbanded, ostensibly since it didn't have the minimum number stipulated by the law (we all should abide by the law in any situation, especially concerning the parliament, as Sarmatian never tires to remind us).
The prohibition of the party is being on trial still.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

It was never officially offered. It was more of "yes, we'd willing to consider that option sometime in the future, if stars align properly at some point".

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Yet other restive regions were ready to believe Kyiv and wait and see. The east wasn't (or rather Russia wasn't and added oil into the fire) and which regions are better of now?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

During that rhetoric, Kiev was busy instigating riots in the east to replace current governors with those loyal to new central government.

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It is the first time I hear of Kyiv instigating riots in the east while we all know that it was caught on the hop and wasn't ready for such developments (which in fact led to the situation we are facing now). I'm sure you have reliable evidence to present.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Okay, okay.... So ww3 probably isn't going to break out over Ukraine! That's the good news. Bad news is, looks like Russia won. Hard to term the latest political concessions from Kiev as anything other than concessions. Most importantly, those concessions were won by (Russia's!) force of arms.

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The more I think of it, the more it seems to me that those laws were a smoke-screen (the word Brenus likes especially), a face-saving tactics for Putin to announce urbi et orbi (most of all it is urbi he is concerned with) that he has won and give him and opportunity to back out of the dead end he drove himself in.
First of all, both laws (as well as that AA ratification) were forwarded by the president, which means they were not a novelty for him. Yet he signed the ratified AA agreement on the spot and never did it (they are still unsigned) to the two laws in question. Without his signature no law can come into effect. Usually the president takes his time before signing any law ostensibly to study it thouroughly which was not neccessary in this case as he knew what was written in them.
Second of all, they were passed with alleged procedural violations (the screen in the Verkhovna Rada was not showing the MPs who had voted, which is an unusual practice). So it is not unlikely that the parliament may repeal the laws giving the procedural violations as an issue.
Third of all, some stipulations of the laws (like the introduction of "people's militia" or local prosecutors and judges being appointed locally) contradict other laws and (most importantly) the Constitution which is the ultimate law. So the Constitutional Court may cancel the laws at any time on the grounds they contradict the Constitution.
What do we have as a result? Ukraine is legally bound by nothing, can have a breathing space, it is ostensibly the one who is ready for concessions and if these concessions are not taken by the opposite side it is it that would be to blame. And Russia can now think of a nice way to edge out of sanctions and the present predicament with the minimum harm for its reputation.

http://www.foundationmaxvanderstoel....arty_is_banned
“Parliament Speaker Oleksander Turchynov declared yesterday that “[with ten deputies quitting], there are not enough MPs for the faction’s functioning.” He further added that “We have corrected a historical error by disbanding the faction. I hope there will be no more communist ideology in the Ukrainian society.”
But I am the liar.

“First of all, I haven't.
Second of all, Sarmatian was explicit enough in his demand: one can't involve fiction in this thread to exemplify something or compare it to the real life events. If you manage to obtain his permission, we'll have a fiction-related duel some day.” ? Try to make sense please. As involving fiction in thread, stop to talk about reliable Ukrainian Intelligence sources for a start.

“Ukraine was attacked by 6 tactic battalion groups (numbering by different estimates from 6 to 10 thousand) which included both paratroopers and ordinary motorized infantry units together with tanks, APCs, Grads, Uragans, air defense systems and what not (except planes). Are these not regular (not special) armed forces?” Sources, out of Social Media please (so excluding Ukrainian Intelligence Services).

“They are elite and can't "get lost"” Really? You have not a clue, again…

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Originally Posted by Brenus

http://www.foundationmaxvanderstoel....arty_is_banned
“Parliament Speaker Oleksander Turchynov declared yesterday that “[with ten deputies quitting], there are not enough MPs for the faction’s functioning.” He further added that “We have corrected a historical error by disbanding the faction. I hope there will be no more communist ideology in the Ukrainian society.”
But I am the liar.

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You had said that the Communist party was illegal. Then you give a quotation that corroborates what I maintain - that the Communist faction was disbanded. Yet the party (not the parlaimentary faction) is still functioning. Turchinov hopes that it will not (future tense, mind you) due to the results of the trial which is still under way.
And you still claim that (read the first sentence).
Liar, liar.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“Ukraine was attacked by 6 tactic battalion groups (numbering by different estimates from 6 to 10 thousand) which included both paratroopers and ordinary motorized infantry units together with tanks, APCs, Grads, Uragans, air defense systems and what not (except planes). Are these not regular (not special) armed forces?” Sources, out of Social Media please (so excluding Ukrainian Intelligence Services).

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You mean the sources with the same reliability that allow you to claim that those Russians in Ukraine were only special assignment forces? Name those sources (hope it's not USA Today this time again).
I had given multiple sources on other facts including those of Ukrainian ministry of foreign affairs, NATO, Council of Europe, German chancellor, newspapers (American, Ukrainian, European) and you didn't believe any. So I'm not gonna spend my weekend searching for the links you don't (and won't) believe apriopi. Lifenews and Russia Today would do you good. If not, take off your sunglasses and enjoy Laurent Parcelier's sun. Isn't it delightful?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

http://www.foundationmaxvanderstoel....arty_is_banned
“Parliament Speaker Oleksander Turchynov declared yesterday that “[with ten deputies quitting], there are not enough MPs for the faction’s functioning.” He further added that “We have corrected a historical error by disbanding the faction. I hope there will be no more communist ideology in the Ukrainian society.”
But I am the liar.

“First of all, I haven't.
Second of all, Sarmatian was explicit enough in his demand: one can't involve fiction in this thread to exemplify something or compare it to the real life events. If you manage to obtain his permission, we'll have a fiction-related duel some day.” ? Try to make sense please. As involving fiction in thread, stop to talk about reliable Ukrainian Intelligence sources for a start.

“Ukraine was attacked by 6 tactic battalion groups (numbering by different estimates from 6 to 10 thousand) which included both paratroopers and ordinary motorized infantry units together with tanks, APCs, Grads, Uragans, air defense systems and what not (except planes). Are these not regular (not special) armed forces?” Sources, out of Social Media please (so excluding Ukrainian Intelligence Services).

“They are elite and can't "get lost"” Really? You have not a clue, again…

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Brenus, I get that you're a cynic, I get why, and you're not completely wrong about the Ukrainian government right now but when Russia says, "the ten paratroopers found 20km inside Ukraine were on holiday and/or lost." even you have to accent that Russia is invading Ukraine.

It's like that thing children do when they grab the little one's hand and use it to slap his own face whilst shouting "stop hitting yourself."

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Brenus, I get that you're a cynic, I get why, and you're not completely wrong about the Ukrainian government right now but when Russia says, "the ten paratroopers found 20km inside Ukraine were on holiday and/or lost." even you have to accent that Russia is invading Ukraine.

It's like that thing children do when they grab the little one's hand and use it to slap his own face whilst shouting "stop hitting yourself."

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Now that we know that Alba isn't going anywhere, perhaps it is time for the UK to intervene by deploying the Mackamikaze Highlanders....

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

If you mean the article I linked then I'm sorry you can't read the full of it (neither can I), but I think its not that important for the purpose I linked it since its message is clear from the first lines you can view. And I'm sure a German can find the corresponding statement by Merkel elsewhere (and give us a free link ~;)).
And if Putin installs the USSR then the articles aren't gonna be free for Germans - you are under his sanctions, remember? And even if he lets you read them their price will equal the gas prices (he will still need to sell it somewhere) unless Schroeder somehow placates him.

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Yes, but it's from Monday, I'd have to use search functions and have historically found most of them to be bad and unwieldy, so I try to avoid them, just reading what the editors feed me with below huge pictures and the accompanying sensationalist, half-lied headlines.

On that note, it seems that people have announced a peace demonstration in Moscow and the city authorities have allowed it to take place.
Apparently some Russian politicians and journalists published cases where the deaths of russian soldiers in Ukraine were covered up. Which comes right back to the part where I said that it would be hard to cover up so many dead soldiers. So: Told you so!

Oh and here is a link: http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/...d_4147316.html

“Ukraine ruling coalition collapses after Communist Party is banned.” That is the title of the article. Not a faction, the COMMUNIST PARTY. So who’s the liar? Or, as I suspect, you don’t know to read in casual English but in Gildarian English.

“You mean the sources with the same reliability that allows you to claim that those Russians in Ukraine were only special assignment forces”: I never mentioned any articles because I don’t have shady sources like yours. I used my knowledge of Military and my Experience in Crisis. I draw my conclusions which are entirely mine. I know it is a concept alien to you, I use my own brain. I don’t paste and copy blindly, repeating what other print (you reference to the Council of Europe –by the way, I worked for them- being one more proof, if one was needed).
To be fair, I fall in my own trap, and what I reproach to you. I told from the start Putin had no plan, and just better than NATO, Europe/USA in protecting Russian’s Interests. So, yes, if one NATO tank put a caterpillar on Ukrainian’s soil he might consider it as a threat and decide to launch a full scale invasion. However, until now, we can’t speak of invasion of Ukraine.

“the ten paratroopers found 20km inside Ukraine”, and plus 3 tanks, that is an impressive invasion forces. 20 km is around 4 hours walk in a nice and easy pace. So, yes, a squad of paratroopers can walk the wrong way during 4 (or perhaps 3, for young trained soldiers) hours, lost in the dark and having lost their bearing. Happened before, will happen after. And the ones believing it is not possible never trained or co-operate with Para-troopers…

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Originally Posted by Husar

Apparently some Russian politicians and journalists published cases where the deaths of russian soldiers in Ukraine were covered up. Which comes right back to the part where I said that it would be hard to cover up so many dead soldiers. So: Told you so!

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I didn't so much deny that such cases (if numerous) will be hard to cover up, but I expressed doubts whether the Russian society will do something to change the situation. It was the same when thousands marched out in March (forgive my pun) in Moscow to protest against the Crimea annexation. However numerous the march might have been, it was a one-time affair which didn't have any follow-up and was successfully disregarded by Putin. I'm sure the same will happen this time, especially considering the slant Russian mass-media gave to the deaths (volunteers who spent their vacations in Ukraine unbeknown to either their families or their bosses).

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“Ukraine ruling coalition collapses after Communist Party is banned.” That is the title of the article. Not a faction, the COMMUNIST PARTY. So who’s the liar? Or, as I suspect, you don’t know to read in casual English but in Gildarian English.

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What's that underlined word? Use your brain to explain its meaning to such a brainless creature as you consider me to be.
But as Husar remarked, you should look behind the sensationalist title and again (though doing it twice a day may overtax you) use your brain. Coalition is the neccessary prerequisite for the Verkhovna Rada to form a government. At that time it consisted of Batkivshchina, Udar and Svoboda. The latter two left it to give Poroshenko a legal pretext to disband the parliament a month later. These events have nothing to do with the decision to disband the communist faction which was done (as me and then you have correctly mentioned) because it didn't have the stipulated number of MPs. These two events may have actually had chronological coincidence, but I don't remember if they did, since it doesn't matter. I repeat again: the party is still legal. The first sitting of the court on its banning happened at the end of July, then followed one in August but it is still under way and is likely to go on indefinitely. Realizing that it is useless I still post the link:
http://lifeinua.info/the-court-has-p...-to-august-14/

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“You mean the sources with the same reliability that allows you to claim that those Russians in Ukraine were only special assignment forces”: I never mentioned any articles because I don’t have shady sources like yours. I used my knowledge of Military and my Experience in Crisis. I draw my conclusions which are entirely mine. I know it is a concept alien to you, I use my own brain. I don’t paste and copy blindly, repeating what other print (you reference to the Council of Europe –by the way, I worked for them- being one more proof, if one was needed).

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I know it is a vain hope (seeing that you resort to insults again), but I would dearly like you to play fair: any time I report something, you apriori don't admit that it might be the result of my analysis, conclusions and other mental activities, so you ask for a source. Doing that you apriori know that you wouldn't believe any I provide. When your are asked to do that you haughtily reply that you don't need any sources to draw your (no doubt incisive and always correct) conclusions. And I admit my mistake - no more paste and copy for you, unless it be something like that:
http://www.artorg.net/laurent-parcelier/ You may disregard the text but just enjoy the pictures (click on them to see the fullscreen). Well, I do, at least.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“the ten paratroopers found 20km inside Ukraine”, and plus 3 tanks, that is an impressive invasion forces. 20 km is around 4 hours walk in a nice and easy pace. So, yes, a squad of paratroopers can walk the wrong way during 4 (or perhaps 3, for young trained soldiers) hours, lost in the dark and having lost their bearing. Happened before, will happen after. And the ones believing it is not possible never trained or co-operate with Para-troopers…

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Again: those that you admit are exactly those Russia admits. Do you seriously believe that there were no more? But again, those Parceliers are masterpieces.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yes, but it's from Monday, I'd have to use search functions and have historically found most of them to be bad and unwieldy, so I try to avoid them, just reading what the editors feed me with below huge pictures and the accompanying sensationalist, half-lied headlines.

On that note, it seems that people have announced a peace demonstration in Moscow and the city authorities have allowed it to take place.
Apparently some Russian politicians and journalists published cases where the deaths of russian soldiers in Ukraine were covered up. Which comes right back to the part where I said that it would be hard to cover up so many dead soldiers. So: Told you so!

Oh and here is a link: http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/...d_4147316.html

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You're two weeks behind everyone else - Russian journalists were chased away from military cemeteries some time ago.

But hey - at least when the evidence becomes overwhelming you concede the point.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

You're two weeks behind everyone else - Russian journalists were chased away from military cemeteries some time ago.

But hey - at least when the evidence becomes overwhelming you concede the point.

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It's not overwhelming evidence, it's that you go with every anti-russian rumor you can find to rile people up for your beloved WW3. :smug: