Ukraine-in-a-thread

“I am not denying the Russian involvement at the East” I never did either. Russian’s interests were at stake when Ukraine went the way it went, so Russia did what Russia though it was at her best interest. It is not a PUTIN goal, any Russian decent leader would have made the same analyse and acted. Perhaps differently, but the NATO/EU/USA push to East can only be read as a menace for Russia, especially after years of active politic from these powers at Russian borders of destabilisation and Orange Revolutions. You might say these were democratisation processes, but it is hardly convincing seeing what happened in these countries. From the Russia sight/side, it is a clear manoeuvre of encirclement from some who openly treat and consider you as enemy.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Don't like it, vote them out in the next elections. I was extremely unhappy with the Scots seemingly wanting to split away, but if they'd voted for that, I'd have accepted it too, even though the referendum was agreed to by a Conservative government I didn't vote for. I voted, the Conservatives formed a government representative of the country as a whole, they made a decision as said government, they had until 2015 to convince people to vote them in again. Such is representative parliamentary democracy.

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And this is precisely the difference between UA and the UK. Whereas the UK is an established democracy, where politicians will generally stick to the constitutional rules. In other words, you can be certain that there will new elections where you can express your political preference, whether it be Labour, UKIP or the Communist Party.
Now in the Ukrainian case, this was not an issue of policy (Yanukovich not signing the AA with the EU), but one of politics (the functioning of the whole political system), as this was precisely what people saw as endangered. The protests became large, after Berkut tried to violently disperse the protestors. One common slogan in those days was "Ukraine must not become a second Belarus". Ukrainian elections have always been notoriously fraudulent, with the massive use of so-called "administrative ressources" by the party in power. In practice, this means mostly putting pressure on government employees and students, as well as employees of private enterprises to "make the right choice on election day". Also the election results from prisons, hospitals etc. tend to uniformly support the party in power. This was also the case in the Rada elections in autumn 2012, during which I was present in the Eastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv and heard multiple accounts of such incidents.
If Yanukovich had been demonstrated his ability to suppress any protest, this would have likely convinced him that he could get away with anything in the next elections, including even more serious fraud. In 2004 it was only the Orange Revolution which prevented him from doing so.

From what I know, the "revolution of dignity" (as its supporters call it) or the "coup of the Kievan Junta" (as its opponents refer to it), was for many involved not only about removing one corrupt administration from office, but about removing a thoroughly corrupt political system and its representatives altogether, whether their names are Yanukovich, Tymoshenko or Yatsenyuk. I think this was a major reason why the nationalist radicals gained so much support from otherwise moderate people: their narrative of a "national revolution" appealed to everybody, who wished more than just some oligarchs switching seats.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“so the Party is still there. This is the essence. All the rest is word frolicking.” Tsk tsk tsk. My dear, you told all the members of the Forum I was a liar when I linked a Newspaper Article saying that your Government was banning the Communist Party. Now, it appears that I was right, so you were wrong, but you are dismissing the fact as it doesn’t matter because it didn’t work as planned…

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I called you a liar because you told "all the members of the Forum" (as usual, you exaggerate, it is only the visitors of the thread who know of your debacle) that Communist party WAS banned. And that was (and is) not true (consequently a lie). Whatever plans anyone might have, they are not fait accompli until they are fulfilled. Ukrainian government is planning to join EU. According to you, we may now say that Ukraine is the member of EU. Right?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“It was and could be a political problem until Russia put its spoke in.” Yeah, sure. It was, until the stupid Ukrainian Politic opened the door for Putin to annex Crimea then we know what did happen. But now, you have an even bigger political problem, especially with winter coming in.

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So, the victim is guilty when he is attacked? Excellent logics - the raped woman is guilty of provoking the rapist into the crime.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“You seem to deny only me in having one's own opinion” When and where?

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You denied me having (or using) my brain. Consequently, the person who doesn't use his brain can't have any opinion of his own. Elementary deduction, as Sherlock is (wrongly) purported to have said.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Russian’s interests were at stake when Ukraine went the way it went, so Russia did what Russia though it was at her best interest. It is not a PUTIN goal, any Russian decent leader would have made the same analyse and acted.

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Yeltsin was of a different opinion and never interfered (at least so flagrantly) into Ukraine's affairs. Or perhaps he was not a decent political leader, in your view. Grab some land and make two closely-related peoples enemies and Brenus will proclaim you a decent leader.

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

I am not denying the Russian involvement at the East, but your figures are way off. UN estimates the total casualties for all sides involved being around 2600 lives, while Ukraine claims Russian casualties at 2000, which is highly improbable in itself while your figure doubles what Ukraine is claiming.

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I heard several estimates (for example:http://infoline.ua/Spectema/ATO/Toch...NBO_15046.html) and I must say that many sources (even Ukrainian ones) accuse the Ukrainian officials of downplaying the casualties. So I would opt on 5-6000 taken together (including armed people on both sides and civilians).

“I called you a liar because you told "all the members of the Forum" (as usual, you exaggerate, it is only the visitors of the thread who know of your debacle) that Communist party WAS banned.” Read again YOUR government statement “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party.” Not banning, dissolving, as explicitly said in “I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation”.

My exact first words were “Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...”(3602).
Then YOU used the word “ban” as opposed to illegal: “it was the faction of the Communist party in the parliament that was disbanded, ostensibly since it didn't have the minimum number stipulated by the law” (3065). Omitting to precise that the Government just pass a decree as mentioned as shown in “Yesterday, a bill was signed that brings changes to the rules … Tomorrow morning [Thursday], it will be published in Golos Ukrainy [official newspaper of the Verkhovna Rada], meaning it will come into force, and I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation” So, you lied. You are the one manipulating the truth, to change the reality of facts. You are not even able to quote and check the writing done few pages before.
Liar you are, naughty boy…

“You denied me having (or using) my brain[” a bit of difference here, but I don’t deny you to have brain and to have an opinion. I just have to underline how you use it to draw wrong conclusions and analyse. Your excesses discouraged even the hardest of hardliner supporters of the actual Ukrainian Government actions.

“So, the victim is guilty when he is attacked? Excellent logics - the raped woman is guilty of provoking the rapist into the crime.” No, but a bully can’t complain if he is a bruised by the big brother of the small guy wearing glasses he punched.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“I called you a liar because you told "all the members of the Forum" (as usual, you exaggerate, it is only the visitors of the thread who know of your debacle) that Communist party WAS banned.” Read again YOUR government statement “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party.” Not banning, dissolving, as explicitly said in “I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation”.

My exact first words were “Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...”(3602).
Then YOU used the word “ban” as opposed to illegal: “it was the faction of the Communist party in the parliament that was disbanded, ostensibly since it didn't have the minimum number stipulated by the law” (3065). Omitting to precise that the Government just pass a decree as mentioned as shown in “Yesterday, a bill was signed that brings changes to the rules … Tomorrow morning [Thursday], it will be published in Golos Ukrainy [official newspaper of the Verkhovna Rada], meaning it will come into force, and I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation” So, you lied. You are the one manipulating the truth, to change the reality of facts. You are not even able to quote and check the writing done few pages before.
Liar you are, naughty boy…

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Again you are missing the whole point and quotations you cite are wrong. THE FACTION was dissolved and Turchinov announced of THE FACTION'S cessation, its members (aka Communists) are still alive and kicking (aka acting) deputies. Don't you see the difference between a faction in the parliament (numbering a couple of dozen deputies) and the whole party outside the parliament (which is still functioning)? And you disregard THE MOST IMPORTANT ARGUMENT I referred to: THE COMMUNUST PARTY IS TAKING PART IN OCTOBER 26 ELECTIONS. Is it possible for banned/illegal/dissolved/eliminated/evaporated... party? Instead you carry on with your story of a banned party. Perhaps in Ukraine that lives in your imagination it is banned, but this image doesn't bear on the real world.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Your excesses discouraged even the hardest of hardliner supporters of the actual Ukrainian Government actions.

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You mean MY PERSONAL excesses? Well, I feel exalted: according to you it takes one man's actions (have no idea what actions of mine which you qualify as excesses can be known to the frequenters of the forum; perhaps you mean words of mine?), and no official nor civil servant, to repel supporters (you mean at his forum? in Ukraine or in the world?) of the government of a country. Are you sure it's not your most decent Putin you are talking about?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“So, the victim is guilty when he is attacked? Excellent logics - the raped woman is guilty of provoking the rapist into the crime.” No, but a bully can’t complain if he is a bruised by the big brother of the small guy wearing glasses he punched.

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So who was that mysterious nerd Ukraine punched? "Russian minorities"? How selective was the punch - those in Donbas (and not all of them, like Mariupol inhabitants) felt hurt and went to comlpain to the big brother and those in Zaporizhya or Kherson sided with the bully. Or were Ukrainian nazis aiming at Russian minorities of central Donetsk region and southern Luhansk region? Your school life perception of the nature of the conflict is warped at the same angle Russia's is.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“I called you a liar because you told "all the members of the Forum" (as usual, you exaggerate, it is only the visitors of the thread who know of your debacle) that Communist party WAS banned.” Read again YOUR government statement “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party.” Not banning, dissolving, as explicitly said in “I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation”.

My exact first words were “Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...”(3602).
Then YOU used the word “ban” as opposed to illegal: “it was the faction of the Communist party in the parliament that was disbanded, ostensibly since it didn't have the minimum number stipulated by the law” (3065). Omitting to precise that the Government just pass a decree as mentioned as shown in “Yesterday, a bill was signed that brings changes to the rules … Tomorrow morning [Thursday], it will be published in Golos Ukrainy [official newspaper of the Verkhovna Rada], meaning it will come into force, and I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation” So, you lied. You are the one manipulating the truth, to change the reality of facts. You are not even able to quote and check the writing done few pages before.
Liar you are, naughty boy…

“You denied me having (or using) my brain[” a bit of difference here, but I don’t deny you to have brain and to have an opinion. I just have to underline how you use it to draw wrong conclusions and analyse. Your excesses discouraged even the hardest of hardliner supporters of the actual Ukrainian Government actions.

“So, the victim is guilty when he is attacked? Excellent logics - the raped woman is guilty of provoking the rapist into the crime.” No, but a bully can’t complain if he is a bruised by the big brother of the small guy wearing glasses he punched.

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You missed the bit where the Communists are accused of treason (supporting the annexation of Crimea and the Eastern rebels).

Those should be checkable facts - but it appears that the part has not been found guilty of treason and therefore will not actually be banned.

“Turchinov announced of THE FACTION'S cessation” Read again: “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party” Not Faction, Communist Party. Again: “Communist Party’s cessation”

“And you disregard THE MOST IMPORTANT ARGUMENT I referred to: THE COMMUNUST PARTY IS TAKING PART IN OCTOBER 26 ELECTIONS.” Nope, I disregard nothing. It is just your Government is incompetent.

“Those should be checkable facts - but it appears that the part has not been found guilty of treason and therefore will not actually be banned.” I missed nothing. And the will to make the Communist Party illegal was in the Government speeches and intentions. I just copy and paste the Ukrainian Statements from official, nothing more.
The change in the Constitution to allow this forfeiture had nothing to do with treason, but all to do with political manoeuvers. I can’t even imagine if Putin would have done this in Russia…

“Your school life perception of the nature of the conflict is warped at the same angle Russia's is.” Yeah yeah yeah, carry on the good old methods.
Yours in full accordance with Stalin principles.

Stalin had little in the way of principles to slow him down, and even less in the way of scruples.

Moreover, if even Stalin found something a little too vile, he had Beria.

Imho this thread would benefit a lot if certain members stop fighting their private feuds here and instead recommence sharing either analysis and/or new information on what is actually happening.

After the relative ceasefire of the last weeks and the exchange of prisoners, there seem to be new fights over the Donetsk airport. Both sides claim to hold it under their control, but in fact it looks as if nobody has gained the upper hand there yet.
Russian Lifenews showing the fight from the separatists' point of view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPoR3q0VxXg

And here is the Ukrainian side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=srkvpEnKCfM

Not exactly an fulfilment of the Minsk protocols from 5th and 19th September.
The one of the 5th:
http://slavyangrad.org/2014/09/07/pr...tember-5-2014/

The more detailed protocol on the withdrawal of heavy weapons:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...sk-365460.html

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Stalin had little in the way of principles to slow him down, and even less in the way of scruples.

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Replace Stalin with Putin and you've got a perfect picture of modern Russia's foreign policy.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“Turchinov announced of THE FACTION'S cessation” Read again: “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party” Not Faction, Communist Party. Again: “Communist Party’s cessation”

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I read it as many times as you like it, but (unfortunately for you) reading a lie (or incorrect information, if you prefer) a hundred times doesn't turn it into truth. And the truth is: Communist party still functions.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“And you disregard THE MOST IMPORTANT ARGUMENT I referred to: THE COMMUNUST PARTY IS TAKING PART IN OCTOBER 26 ELECTIONS.” Nope, I disregard nothing. It is just your Government is incompetent.

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A perfect example of a biased approach to whatever the Ukrainian government does:
Brenus hears: Communist party is banned. Brenus says: Ukrainian government are nazis who violate all rules of democracy.
Brenus hears: Communist party is not banned, it takes part in the elections. Brenus says: Ukrainian government is incompetent.
Whatever happens to the Communists, Ukrainian government is evil.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“Those should be checkable facts - but it appears that the part has not been found guilty of treason and therefore will not actually be banned.” I missed nothing. And the will to make the Communist Party illegal was in the Government speeches and intentions. I just copy and paste the Ukrainian Statements from official, nothing more.

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You ARE missing everything: look at the bold in your post. Plans, speeches, intentions and other might-have-beens are not facts until they are turned into actions. Perhaps some day they will be, but until they are your claims of Communist party being banned are lies (incorrect information based on misinterpratation and abscence of logics, if you prefer).

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Originally Posted by Brenus

I can’t even imagine if Putin would have done this in Russia…

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You don't believe any negative information about Putin, so you certainly can't imagine His Decency doing something unseemly, oh, no, my precious. But Putin does similar things to private business. Like it was with Khodorkovsky's Yukos a while back and only recently with another guy:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/...ussian-economy

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Yeah yeah yeah, carry on the good old methods.
Yours in full accordance with Stalin principles.

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Now YOU equate communists and nazis: at first you almost called me a nazi, now you directly call me a communist. :no: Come on, a little consistency. It failed you when your "big brother" metaphor didn't work: a picture of a big brother (Russia) impounding the bully's (Ukraine's) garage (Crimea) because the bully threatened a little bespectacled milksop ("Russian minorities") does not reflect credit upon the big brother.

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Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

Imho this thread would benefit a lot if certain members stop fighting their private feuds here and instead recommence sharing either analysis and/or new information on what is actually happening.

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This is a medieval-related forum, so it's gotta have some feuds smouldering deep underneath. At least this is what we know of Middle Ages.

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Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

After the relative ceasefire of the last weeks and the exchange of prisoners, there seem to be new fights over the Donetsk airport.

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The fights are not new. They have been going on since June, or perhaps earlier. The ceasefire didn't stop them. There are some strategic points around which the fights never stopped as the separatists want to have them under their control, ceasefire or no. These are Debaltseve, Donetsk airport and Shchstya (north of Luhansk).

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Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

Both sides claim to hold it under their control, but in fact it looks as if nobody has gained the upper hand there yet.
Russian Lifenews showing the fight from the separatists' point of view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPoR3q0VxXg

And here is the Ukrainian side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=srkvpEnKCfM

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Even Lifenews admits that the main building of the airport is still held by the Ukrainian army, otherwise why separatists would continue storming it (as it is shown in the video)?

“reading a lie” So your media are lying, or the speaker of the house is lying? Which one? Pick your choice…

“Brenus hears: Communist party is banned.” I read what you wrote… Did you lie when you said it was not illegal but banned? As I mentioned before these are YOUR words. I give back to Cesar...

“Brenus hears: Communist party is not banned, it takes part in the elections. Brenus says: Ukrainian government is incompetent.” Well, that is a conclusion of a failed attempt. So what is your point? YOU told me that it was a ban, then you are telling that what I heard was not true. I am a little bit at lost here...:shrug:

“but until they are your claims of Communist party being banned” Err, these are YOUR claim. Mine was Ukrainian Government moving the make Communist Party illegal, and doing it in changing rules. And, as you rightly point out, failed.

“You don't believe any negative information about Putin” One day, when you will grow-up, perhaps, you will emerge of your bi-polar world. I am an optimistic, even if sometimes I can have doubts.

“Now YOU equate communists and nazis: at first you almost called me a nazi, now you directly call me a communist.” You should really learn to read. To compare you with Stalin is not to say you are Communist, first of all, it just highlighting a tactic use under Stalin. Then, for historical and factual reasons, I will certainly not equate Nazism and Communism.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

.. so the Party is still there. This is the essence. All the rest is word frolicking.

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I mostly agree with the Ukrainian point of view (i.e. yours), but this is really not a strong point.

Under Mubarak in Egypt, the muslim brotherhood was banned. It was a public secret that many of the politicians in the 'parliament' were MB members - yet the organization itself was banned, not recognised in any way, and it's adherents had to be discrete about the whole thing in order to avoid prosecution.

From what I understand the communist party in question was, in fact, a bunch of Soviet nostalgists who support Russia most of the time, regardless of circumstances. Which is apparently a psychological reflex for those people.

Anyway, banning a party outright is not something to be done lightheartedly. I can understand (and sympathize with) the reasons behind it. But if there actually were any seditious activities I would have expected the politicians of that party to be prosecuted, and it doesn't seem like that's the case.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Even Lifenews admits that the main building of the airport is still held by the Ukrainian army, otherwise why separatists would continue storming it (as it is shown in the video)?

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Yes, you are right. Those were just rumours and I misread a headline. Actually their 'minister of defence', Moroszov, just claimed to hold a part of that airport.
Yes, the airport has been under attack multiple times over the last month, but according to the press-center of the ATO, this is a new wave of attacks including mortars, tanks, artillery and Grad launchers.
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/pol...tska-shtab-ato
Apart from that, Ukrainian positions are occasionally under artillery fire also elsewhere, but not as intense.

This airport seems to be really important to the separatists and from what I know, it is also the last Ukrainian foothold in Donetsk. It seems that the separatists plan to push Kiev out and the afterwards consolidate their power in the status quo. However, they risk the ceasefire in doing so, although I doubt that a new escalation would be in Kyiv's interest.

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Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

Yes, you are right. Those were just rumours and I misread a headline. Actually their 'minister of defence', Moroszov, just claimed to hold a part of that airport.
Yes, the airport has been under attack multiple times over the last month, but according to the press-center of the ATO, this is a new wave of attacks including mortars, tanks, artillery and Grad launchers.
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/pol...tska-shtab-ato
Apart from that, Ukrainian positions are occasionally under artillery fire also elsewhere, but not as intense.

This airport seems to be really important to the separatists and from what I know, it is also the last Ukrainian foothold in Donetsk. It seems that the separatists plan to push Kiev out and the afterwards consolidate their power in the status quo. However, they risk the ceasefire in doing so, although I doubt that a new escalation would be in Kyiv's interest.

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When one side has launched an offensive against a strategic target you can declare the ceasefire over - the lack of general resumption of hostilities is probably due to lack of ammo as much as anything.

Fact is, Kiev only agreed to a ceasefire to consolidate their defences wherre the rebels were winning and the rebels only paid it lip service, and used it to resupply.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“reading a lie” So your media are lying, or the speaker of the house is lying? Which one? Pick your choice…

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It is clearly the case of sensationalist approach on the part of the media you quoted (and I have said it more than once). Or, perhaps, since these were Ukrainian media (as you claim), their command of English leaves much to be desired. Turchinov said that dissolving the Communist faction was the first step on the road to banning the whole party. The media you quoted took the story further announcing that the whole party was banned.
This is what happened and this is what I was trying to show focusing your attention on the fact that banning the Communist party is still a wishful thinking to many in Ukraine.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

I mostly agree with the Ukrainian point of view (i.e. yours), but this is really not a strong point.

Under Mubarak in Egypt, the muslim brotherhood was banned. It was a public secret that many of the politicians in the 'parliament' were MB members - yet the organization itself was banned, not recognised in any way, and it's adherents had to be discrete about the whole thing in order to avoid prosecution.

From what I understand the communist party in question was, in fact, a bunch of Soviet nostalgists who support Russia most of the time, regardless of circumstances. Which is apparently a psychological reflex for those people.

Anyway, banning a party outright is not something to be done lightheartedly. I can understand (and sympathize with) the reasons behind it. But if there actually were any seditious activities I would have expected the politicians of that party to be prosecuted, and it doesn't seem like that's the case.

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Those who follow my bickering with Brenus may have had an impression that I support what is being done to ban the Communist party. This is a wrong impression. I also think that we should get personal in charges of separatism no matter what party these persons belong to.
I agree to your analysis of the mindset of the people who vote for Communists.
What I would like to add is my aversion to the hypocrisy of the party that ostensibly protects the interests of the working class and the poor and calls to nationalize the property of oligarchs while its leaders have mansions in prestigious areas outside Kyiv, wear Brioni suits and drive fancy cars. Still, it doesn't mean I want to see the party banned. Rather I would like to see its leaders "hung by private parts", as Sarmatian puts it.

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Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

Yes, you are right. Those were just rumours and I misread a headline. Actually their 'minister of defence', Moroszov, just claimed to hold a part of that airport.
Yes, the airport has been under attack multiple times over the last month, but according to the press-center of the ATO, this is a new wave of attacks including mortars, tanks, artillery and Grad launchers.
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/pol...tska-shtab-ato
Apart from that, Ukrainian positions are occasionally under artillery fire also elsewhere, but not as intense.

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The latest news on the airport I heard is that the buildings captured by the separatists (like the one in the video) are taken back by the Ukrainian army.

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Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

This airport seems to be really important to the separatists and from what I know, it is also the last Ukrainian foothold in Donetsk. It seems that the separatists plan to push Kiev out and the afterwards consolidate their power in the status quo.

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As is the story with all big cities, Donetsk airport is actually some distance from the city, so it IS a foothold, but in fact it is outside the city itself.
The importance of the airport lies in the fact that its possessors would be able to use aviation. The nearest airports enabling to do that are in Izyum (Kharkiv region), Kramatorsk (perhaps you remember how hard the separatists tried to take it in spring and in summer, but now it is under control of the army) and Luhansk (its runways were all blown up by the retreating army so they can't be used). Donetsk airport runway facilities are more or less undamaged as the separatists try to avoid it during their shelling and Ukrainians are too firmly entrenched to think of doing it so far. Ukrainian military authorities think that if the separatists hold the airport Ukrainian supermarkets will suddenly offer them a wide range of fighting planes to be used at their discretion which is not possible yet due to the absence of the airfield to land them.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

When one side has launched an offensive against a strategic target you can declare the ceasefire over - the lack of general resumption of hostilities is probably due to lack of ammo as much as anything.

Fact is, Kiev only agreed to a ceasefire to consolidate their defences wherre the rebels were winning and the rebels only paid it lip service, and used it to resupply.

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Ceasefire was a stillborn baby the moment it was declared.
First of all, even DPR and LPR admit that there are some gangs which obey no one so the self-styled republics are not answerable for what they do.
Second of all, as Biesmarck remarked, all agreements with Russia are not worth the paper they are written on. The proof of it is the constant attempts to storm the airport which can't be done (judging from the weapons being used) by roaming bands of gangsters bent on marauding.

Donetsk celebrated 6-month anniversary of DPR. Check out the lower video. Perhaps the performance is meant to show the nazi essence of modern Ukraine (evidently represented by two girls wearing skirts of Ukrainian flag colors).
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/pol...ly-yubylei-dnr
Only I don't get why someone is waving the flag of Novorossia on the same stage with marching nazis.

It seems that French nazis don't see eye to eye with the current Ukrainian government (branded by many as a nazi one) and admire the nazi-fighting Russia:
http://famagusta-gazette.com/eu-sour...-p25300-69.htm
Now who's nazi and who's not?

"Now who's nazi and who's not?" Le Pen is a Nazi, So your point is? France have Nazi, but Ukraine has them in Government. YOU are the blind nationalist, not me. So again, what is your point? Smoke screen and attempted diversion a side of course...

"Only I don't get why someone is waving the flag of Novorossia on the same stage with marching nazis." I don't get it either.Perhaps it is to show Ukrainian (in blue and yellow) welcoming Nazi (being Nazi themselves) and kick out by valiant rebels, but again, I am not a critic for stages. But not sure, to be fair. Mystery, mystery...

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"Now who's nazi and who's not?" Le Pen is a Nazi, So your point is? France have Nazi, but Ukraine has them in Government. YOU are the blind nationalist, not me. So again, what is your point? Smoke screen and attempted diversion a side of course...

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There no need to repeat the question twice, but I expected from such a clairvoyant anti-nationalist you want to appear more insight and logics (aka brain-using). My point is: can a nazi be dissatisfied with what other nazis are doing? Hardly. Le Pen expressed her view of what happened in Ukraine calling it a jewish plot by Nuland the Jew. Thus a nazi (Le Pen) is far from happy at the fact that Nazis (as you brand them) came to power in Ukraine. Isn't such a display of disgust at ideological brethren advent into power strange? Perhaps she doesn't think them nazis (or nazis enough)?
On the other hand, she expresses her admiration with Putin. Doesn't it make them kindred spirits (at least, in Le Pen's view)?
The conclusion: if Le Pen is all-recognized nazi, those she hates are not nazis and those she worships are nazis themselves. Thus, Ukrainian government are not nazis while Putin and his posse are. Am I making myself clear enough now?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"Only I don't get why someone is waving the flag of Novorossia on the same stage with marching nazis." I don't get it either.Perhaps it is to show Ukrainian (in blue and yellow) welcoming Nazi (being Nazi themselves) and kick out by valiant rebels, but again, I am not a critic for stages. But not sure, to be fair. Mystery, mystery...

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But this flag-waving character is not trying to resists the black-clad nazis he is just watching them do their terrible business of marching and saluting. Where's the valiance you speak of?

"can a nazi be dissatisfied with what other nazis" THEY KILLED EACH OTHERS (and hate each others), read history before to do some insane claims and parallels. Mama mia, such ignorance is painful to watch...

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"can a nazi be dissatisfied with what other nazis" THEY KILLED EACH OTHERS (and hate each others), read history before to do some insane claims and parallels. Mama mia, such ignorance is painful to watch...

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Actually - he's correct in that Nazis would club together - but it's worth pointing out that there are Nazi's on both sides, I read one interview where a Ukranians Nazi said Putin wasa Jew and another where a Russian (yes, actual Russian) said the government in Kiev was the result of a Jewish plot.

The point being that neither side is part of some great Nazi-overmind.

But hey, October 13th and Putin is still a Fascist, so.

"he's correct in that Nazis would club together" They clubbed each others, for the start (Long Knives' night, someone?).

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"can a nazi be dissatisfied with what other nazis" THEY KILLED EACH OTHERS (and hate each others), read history before to do some insane claims and parallels. Mama mia, such ignorance is painful to watch...

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Yeah, I realize how it hurts to find your own mistakes. Again, jumping to conclusions and insults without any analysis and reservations.
Yes, they did kill each other, but those were COMPETING GANGS in one country anxious to be in sole control of the government. Such things may well happen (and happened more than once in history) when the gangs are not nazis. I spoke of nazis from different countries who have no rivalry to impede their flocking together. Like Communists or Social democrats from different countries who support each other and even form transnational parties (I know that Tymoshenko's "Batkivshchina" is a member of one).
Speaking of Putin the Fascist, here is what a psychologist thinks of him. I'm sorry it is in Russian, but this is an interview of Philip Jaffe, a Swiss scientists, to RFI on the personality of Putin. I expect those who are interested can find it in the language they understand.
http://ru.rfi.fr/ukraina/20140929-ps...vmu-v-detstve/

And this is how Putin's birthday was celebrated in Chechnya:
http://liveleak.su/15-video/other/74...smotret-onlajn
Does it remind you something? "Irrepressible spontaneous demonstrations when workers marched out of factories and offices and paraded through the streets with banners voicing their gratitude to Big Brother for the new, happy life which his wise leadership has bestowed upon them".
G. Orwell 1984.

“I spoke of nazis from different countries who have no rivalry to impede their flocking together.” Ridiculous! Again. Hitler had no rivals in foreign countries but henchmen.
"Again, jumping to conclusions and insults without any analysis and reservations." Nice self-portrait. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“I spoke of nazis from different countries who have no rivalry to impede their flocking together.” Ridiculous! Again. Hitler had no rivals in foreign countries but henchmen.

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You don't read carefully what others write. Brenus in his element again.
All you claim is true, moreover, it was what I had claimed in my post.
Hitler supported nazis in other countries like modern nazis do. Hitler hunted nazis in his own country because they were on his way to absolute power.

Darth Vader and the Internet Party of Ukraine headed by him are running for the parliament. Check out the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2JwAHhm6F8
He is playing the bandura (a traditional Ukrainian instrument). The slogan at the end reads: "We will not let them eat our salo" (pork fat eaten raw and considered to be a traditional Ukrainian meal and one of the symbols of Ukrainians).
In another one Darth Vader reveals his cossack hairdo:
http://www.ipu.com.ua/news/Dart_Vejd..._masku-000450/
And one more:
http://chto-proishodit.ru/news/2014/10/17/75004748

A curious fact: Right Sector held a charity concert in Odessa together with the jewish community of the city. Nazis and jews are singing together?
https://news.pn/en/public/116427
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0E75RBP1cQ

And there is no fascism in newly-acquired by Russia lands:
http://www.worldbulletin.net/todays-...ukrainian-past

The teachers burned the books, it was probably a normal administrative step to get rid of olf books with wrong information.