Israel kills to Maintain Blockade

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“the 'peace' activists allegedly attempted to bring down the helicopter by attaching the fast-rope to the ship, this meant that the rope had to be cut, leaving the soldiers on the deck with no support and no exit from a mob wielding iron bars.”
Do you relly believe in this? Do you really believe that you can put down an helicoptere with a rope? Did you try to board an helicoptere and experiment the wind?
Well, the soldiers have just to jump over board, then being rescued by the helicopter. Lost of dignity, but not life.
Then the Navy would have come and in case, would have done like all more or less normal navies do in this kind of situation…

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i said "allegedly" because i have only read it from one source.

however, if it did happen, then don't try to tell me that 'mooring' a helicopter to a ship at night, which is moving at 15 knots, and captained by hostile forces is anything but an existential threat to both the helicopter, its crew, and the boarding party that depend on it for exfiltration. it also represents a mortal threat to the crew of the ship, but frankly they aren't my first concern.

because to make such an assertion would be ridiculous!

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

i said "allegedly" because i have only read it from one source.

however, if it did happen, then don't try to tell me that 'mooring' a helicopter to a ship at night, which is moving at 15 knots, and captained by hostile forces is anything but an existential threat to both the helicopter, its crew, and the boarding party that depend on it for exfiltration. it also represents a mortal threat to the crew of the ship, but frankly they aren't my first concern.

because to make such an assertion would be ridiculous!

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.....Hence why boarding ships is usually carried out by the Navy, using ships.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

.....Hence why boarding ships is usually carried out by the Navy, using ships.

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lovely point, but does nothing to address why i made mine:

"Do you relly believe in this? Do you really believe that you can put down an helicoptere with a rope? Did you try to board an helicoptere and experiment the wind?"

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

lovely point, but does nothing to address why i made mine:

"Do you relly believe in this? Do you really believe that you can put down an helicoptere with a rope? Did you try to board an helicoptere and experiment the wind?"

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My point is that Israel failed in just about everything during this mission. Everything they did should've been done in a different way.

Quite a feat, actually. It'll be some time before someone tops this shining example of retardation.

...at least until 2013, should the progress party get elected to office here in norway.... then this screw-up will look like a success.

“lovely point, but does nothing to address why I made mine”: Do you think is a real thing? Do you think you can grab a rope coming from a helicopter, make a knot (somewhere?) and over speed an helicopter with a boat, this of course, without the helicopter crew noticing…
“because to make such an assertion would be ridiculous!”

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Besides finding 6 tons of weaponry last time?

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That was last time as you say, this time there weren't any, usually that's what you find out before shooting/arresting people.
If you're some kind of professional police force that is.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Oh come on, Husar. You know darned well that this particular convoy was kitted out as clean as the driven snow in terms of cargo. The group organizing this fomented an incident and they wanted Israel to look like a bunch of jerks when they were stopped. Doesn't mean that previous or subsequent supply efforts won't -- only that this one was a set-up.

Between sloppy procedures and a cargo made for TV, the Israelis have obligingly pulled it out and stepped on it again -- with the golf cleats. Somewhere in Gaza, they're probably still exchanging toasts like: "To the IDF, what a bunch of predictable maroons...."

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I cannot come on as I didn't know these convoys even existed before I read this thread, I don't follow any "peace activist" or israeli news twitters or anything like that.
If the Israelis stepped into a trap then it's their own fault for having those sloppy procedures you mention.
Had they conducted a proper boarding and search operation and found nothing illegal, this would probably not even have made the news. Had they killed 9 people under very different circumstances, like I described above, then I would have defended them, but they didn't, they dropped some men one-by-one into an angry mob with blunt objects and then said it was self-defense after they shot 9 people. Is it really self-defense if you run straight into the knife in the first place?

What astounds me is this. Is Israel a country which desperately needs all the friends, allies and goodwill it can possibly get? I'd say yes, absolutely, perhaps more so than any other country in the world. After all, Israel is petrified about Iran's nuclear ambitions, and would probably want to bomb their nuclear facilities, for which they'd need all the help, goodwill, support and cover that they can get. Or, even before that, they want to put as much pressure on Iran as possible diplomatically at the UN. Now the agenda has changed from Iran's nuclear ambitions to the suffering in Gaza.

If I was the Israeli PM I'd think it was imperative that I not do things which piss off the world at large for extremely small "gains".

Actions included in this category to be avoided like the plague would include:

- not to fake your "friends" passports (eg Aust, UK, Germany etc) and murder someone (bad guy that he was, assassination is not a good look for a democratic country) and thus get wall to wall bad publicity, and diplomats expelled from countries you call your "friends".

- attacking a seaborne convoy of activists (not all with non violent motives, but armed with only chairs and blunt objects) who are attempting to circumvent your illegal, collective punishment blockade of the world's largest open air prison resulting in 10 deaths (inc those shot in the head) in international waters. Cue enormous bad publicity, demonstrations, and so on.

The current Israeli PM seems very fond of using the military and intelligence agencies to "fix" problems, which, as can be seen in this case, and have before (eg failed assassination attempt in Amman during previous term in office), just made things worse. In fact, the fact that they just keep making their own situation even worse is utterly bizarre. It would be almost comical if it wasn't such an important issue.

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Originally Posted by aimlesswanderer

What astounds me is this. Is Israel a country which desperately needs all the friends, allies and goodwill it can possibly get? I'd say yes, absolutely, perhaps more so than any other country in the world. After all, Israel is petrified about Iran's nuclear ambitions, and would probably want to bomb their nuclear facilities, for which they'd need all the help, goodwill, support and cover that they can get. Or, even before that, they want to put as much pressure on Iran as possible diplomatically at the UN. Now the agenda has changed from Iran's nuclear ambitions to the suffering in Gaza.

If I was the Israeli PM I'd think it was imperative that I not do things which piss off the world at large for extremely small "gains".

Actions included in this category to be avoided like the plague would include:

- not to fake your "friends" passports (eg Aust, UK, Germany etc) and murder someone (bad guy that he was, assassination is not a good look for a democratic country) and thus get wall to wall bad publicity, and diplomats expelled from countries you call your "friends".

- attacking a seaborne convoy of activists (not all with non violent motives, but armed with only chairs and blunt objects) who are attempting to circumvent your illegal, collective punishment blockade of the world's largest open air prison resulting in 10 deaths (inc those shot in the head) in international waters. Cue enormous bad publicity, demonstrations, and so on.

The current Israeli PM seems very fond of using the military and intelligence agencies to "fix" problems, which, as can be seen in this case, and have before (eg failed assassination attempt in Amman during previous term in office), just made things worse. In fact, the fact that they just keep making their own situation even worse is utterly bizarre. It would be almost comical if it wasn't such an important issue.

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I'm getting more and more suspicious that the Israeli military leadership is distancing itself from the political leadership and is doing things more and more on its own, with the politicians left with the job of covering for them....

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Originally Posted by Husar

That was last time as you say, this time there weren't any,

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And how are they supposed to know. I do agree it was clumsy, it was stupid to consider the possibity there were people who actually want nothing but peace. Clear the deck with a watercannon next time, would have just as bad pr though when people who want nothing but peace look like wet cats. The usual suspects will be just as rightiously outraged and overtaken with grief. Like the kid that keeps pinching and runs to teacher crying hysterically when he finally gets a punch. Here there would be the same demonstrations, that become riots, and they will squeel like pigs when they are arrested.

The IDF has boarded the Rachel Corrie

The Ship is advertising the Org on the side of it. Did our lord and master TosaInu decide to get involved?

If Tosa would chose to get involved there would be peace, his pressence alone would leave all in awe

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Originally Posted by Fragony

What murder, people died. And this boarding was very much legal under international law.

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First, this comes from the same person who said "Rules be damned. This is survival.", therefore excluding yourself from making any viable point concerning to International Law.
Second, if you go read previous posts, you'll see ample arguments as to why the whole operation is in fact illegal in its whole width. Saying "Oh, it's very much legal", isn't really an argument, and doesn't make it legal. If anything, it makes people laugh at your simplicity and partizanship.

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Originally Posted by Subotan

The IDF has boarded the Rachel Corrie

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Well, apparently the protocols/procedures for the stoppage were applied correctly this time.

Fragony:

The interception distance chosen in the incident of several days ago was clearly chosen by the Israelis to remind all involved that Israel has imposed a 68km security zone. They made the interception just inside that distance. Most of the rest of the international community does not accept the validity of that security zone and views the point of interception as international waters.

Separately and additionally, most of the rest of the international community wants the blockade ended as of 8 months ago. They believe it to have stopped only a limited number of weapons etc., but to have severely hampered life in Gaza and to have caused needless deaths. The international community is just not willing to shoot Israelis in order to end the blockade.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

And how are they supposed to know. I do agree it was clumsy, it was stupid to consider the possibity there were people who actually want nothing but peace. Clear the deck with a watercannon next time, would have just as bad pr though when people who want nothing but peace look like wet cats. The usual suspects will be just as rightiously outraged and overtaken with grief. Like the kid that keeps pinching and runs to teacher crying hysterically when he finally gets a punch. Here there would be the same demonstrations, that become riots, and they will squeel like pigs when they are arrested.

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They find out by searching the ship after boarding it in a proper way, which, unless there is armed(arms do usually not include chairs) resistance, is usually not a process during which people die. The water cannon is actually a good idea and one used by police forces around the world, apparently it even saved some ships from getting boarded by pirates (who usually have more dangerous weapons than chairs). The only people who get upset at water cannons are the ones who hate the police/government anyway, the advantages are you don't annoy everybody else as well and nobody dies.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

The Ship is advertising the Org on the side of it. Did our lord and master TosaInu decide to get involved?

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I would think Tribesman, although in that case it'd be a wonder that Israel managed to board the ship at all. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Second, if you go read previous posts, you'll see ample arguments as to why the whole operation is in fact illegal in its whole width. Saying "Oh, it's very much legal", isn't really an argument, and doesn't make it legal. If anything, it makes people laugh at your simplicity and partizanship.

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i see lots of evidence of why YOU think it is illegal, the israelies are obviously quite certain that the Gaza-Jericho agreement allows them to impose a blockade on those waters, and the San Remo declaration allows them to stop blockade runners.

this is of course contentious, but that does not in any way negate israel's belief that they were able to do this.

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Originally Posted by aimlesswanderer

What astounds me is this. Is Israel a country which desperately needs all the friends, allies and goodwill it can possibly get? I'd say yes, absolutely, perhaps more so than any other country in the world. After all, Israel is petrified about Iran's nuclear ambitions, and would probably want to bomb their nuclear facilities, for which they'd need all the help, goodwill, support and cover that they can get. Or, even before that, they want to put as much pressure on Iran as possible diplomatically at the UN. Now the agenda has changed from Iran's nuclear ambitions to the suffering in Gaza.

If I was the Israeli PM I'd think it was imperative that I not do things which piss off the world at large for extremely small "gains".

Actions included in this category to be avoided like the plague would include:

- not to fake your "friends" passports (eg Aust, UK, Germany etc) and murder someone (bad guy that he was, assassination is not a good look for a democratic country) and thus get wall to wall bad publicity, and diplomats expelled from countries you call your "friends".

- attacking a seaborne convoy of activists (not all with non violent motives, but armed with only chairs and blunt objects) who are attempting to circumvent your illegal, collective punishment blockade of the world's largest open air prison resulting in 10 deaths (inc those shot in the head) in international waters. Cue enormous bad publicity, demonstrations, and so on.

The current Israeli PM seems very fond of using the military and intelligence agencies to "fix" problems, which, as can be seen in this case, and have before (eg failed assassination attempt in Amman during previous term in office), just made things worse. In fact, the fact that they just keep making their own situation even worse is utterly bizarre. It would be almost comical if it wasn't such an important issue.

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very much agreed, as this point points out most tellingly:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...d-opinion.html

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The failure, above all, is in what is now called (see last week’s column) “the battle of the narratives”. I am grateful to the latest Joint Doctrine Publication promulgated by our Chiefs of Staff (Security and Stabilisation: The Military Contribution) for two telling quotations. One is from the Principles of War, drawn up by Hezbollah, Hamas’s murderous cousins in the Lebanon. One principle states: ''The media has innumerable guns whose hits are like bullets. Use them in battle.’’ The other is from General Keightley, who commanded the ill-fated British operation in the Suez crisis in 1956. ''The one overriding lesson of the Suez operation,’’ he said, ''is that world opinion is now an absolute principle… and must be treated as such.’’

Israel has fought so long, and usually so well, in real battles, but it seems to have forgotten how to fight in verbal ones.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

i see lots of evidence of why YOU think it is illegal, the israelies are obviously quite certain that the Gaza-Jericho agreement allows them to impose a blockade on those waters, and the San Remo declaration allows them to stop blockade runners.

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Notice, I'm not even disputing whether or not the Gaza-Jericho agreement is invalid under the Article 62 of the Vienna Convention on Treaties, which could easily be used by Palestine.

Gaza-Jericho agreement, article XI, chapter 1, section a, subsection 2, called "Zone L", refers to the area which is not controlled by the Israeli Navy. In paragraph 3 it says that foreign ships may not approach closer than 12 miles, unless in accordance in with paragraph 4, which states if an interdiction is to be made, then Israel must inform the Maritime Coordination and Cooperation Center, which obviously due to what happened shortly after the signing of the treaty, never came to exist (They were also bound to inform and act in accordance with other non-existent bodies, but this example suffices). Because of that, under the article 61 of the same Vienna Convention, which states that a treaty is invalid if the object required for the execution of the treaty disapears (Or in this case, does not exist).

As for the San Remo agreement, it stipulates the blockade rules between two states at war. The blockade would be justifiable under International Law if Israel recognized Hamas as the sovereign power of Gaza. As it does not, the only alternative for justifying it would be that it would also have to be at war with who the International community (And Israel) recognizes as the governing body of Palestine/Gaza, being that the Palestinian Authority-Fatah. Add to that, the fact that there is no international "jurisprudence" for a blockade of a State over a territory which doesn't recognize as sovereign, and yet still executes the blockade (For instance, the US blockade of Cuba is an action by the State of the USA against the State of Cuba, whereas the Israel blockade of Gaza is an action by the State of Israel against Hamas, which is not a State, and therefore not applicable by the San Remo agreement).

Vid:

http://video.ntvmsnbc.com/#ingiliz-s...-terletti.html

Also:

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Originally Posted by Group plans Cyprus voyage to protest Turkish occupation

MKs on right slam cabinet for releasing all Turkish activists.

A group of angry Israelis announced on Thursday night that they will leave for Cyprus next week on a flotilla and call for an end to the Turkish occupation of half of the island and its reunification under Cypriot rule.

The group includes Alex Goldfarb, who was an MK in the Tzomet and Yiud parties in the 1990s, and Meretz activist Pinhas Har-Zahav of Modi’in.

An unnamed wealthy Israeli donor is subsidizing the initiative.

MKs on the Right accused the security cabinet on Thursday of buckling under Turkish pressure when it decided to release every Turkish passenger on the Gaza flotilla, even if there was explicit photographic evidence that they attacked IDF soldiers.

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu urged the step in an effort to repair damaged relations with Turkey, and the security cabinet ministers obliged.

The Turkish activists were greeted as heroes when they returned to their country on Thursday. One even boasted that he made an effort to die as a martyr but was unsuccessful.


“I understand Netanyahu’s desire to minimize damage, but I cannot understand the betrayal of the soldiers who see the terrorists who shot at them and stabbed them leaving the country without trial,” National Union MK Arye Eldad said. “Israel has unjustifiably freed many terrorists from prison in the past, but I don’t remember an instance when terrorists who attempted to murder soldiers were not even brought to trial.”

United Arab List-Ta’al MK Ahmed Tibi responded to the departure of the Turkish activists by calling the charges against them baseless.

“There is no proof that they were carrying arms or that they attacked soldiers,” Tibi said. “Israel knows that the tragic result of firing on peace activists is rightfully seen by the world as a crime, so they are trying to cut their losses. Israel had no choice but to release these peace activists.”

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http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177449

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'm getting more and more suspicious that the Israeli military leadership is distancing itself from the political leadership and is doing things more and more on its own, with the politicians left with the job of covering for them....

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What, so you think the military is doing what it thinks it "needs" to, ignoring the civilian government? Having the military run things is always a bad idea, since they have a real liking for the military solution - which just makes things worse.

Well, start your outrage. Lolof course not, absolutely unthinkable this will cause any outrage, there won't be any demonstrations, no one will be overtaken by grief No protest signs. No rightious rage. Really, ask yourselve why.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Arti...?ID=177444&t=t

Supporters are also united in silence when Egypt builds a wall and uses gas to clear tunnels. Supporters will simply ignore it, what do you really care about besides who has the biggest moral. What a peversion of any morality at all.

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177449

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Good luck to them. Make them taste of their own medecine :D

@Fragony: too true. Hamas != Mother Theresa. ~;)
@Left Eye: the idea of protesting against the occupation of Cyprus is actually a good idea. Pity it has to be done as a kind of “look! Turkey does it, too!” type reply.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Notice, I'm not even disputing whether or not the Gaza-Jericho agreement is invalid under the Article 62 of the Vienna Convention on Treaties, which could easily be used by Palestine.

Gaza-Jericho agreement, article XI, chapter 1, section a, subsection 2, called "Zone L", refers to the area which is not controlled by the Israeli Navy. In paragraph 3 it says that foreign ships may not approach closer than 12 miles, unless in accordance in with paragraph 4, which states if an interdiction is to be made, then Israel must inform the Maritime Coordination and Cooperation Center, which obviously due to what happened shortly after the signing of the treaty, never came to exist (They were also bound to inform and act in accordance with other non-existent bodies, but this example suffices). Because of that, under the article 61 of the same Vienna Convention, which states that a treaty is invalid if the object required for the execution of the treaty disapears (Or in this case, does not exist).

As for the San Remo agreement, it stipulates the blockade rules between two states at war. The blockade would be justifiable under International Law if Israel recognized Hamas as the sovereign power of Gaza. As it does not, the only alternative for justifying it would be that it would also have to be at war with who the International community (And Israel) recognizes as the governing body of Palestine/Gaza, being that the Palestinian Authority-Fatah. Add to that, the fact that there is no international "jurisprudence" for a blockade of a State over a territory which doesn't recognize as sovereign, and yet still executes the blockade (For instance, the US blockade of Cuba is an action by the State of the USA against the State of Cuba, whereas the Israel blockade of Gaza is an action by the State of Israel against Hamas, which is not a State, and therefore not applicable by the San Remo agreement).

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you mean international law doesn't yet accomodate for a situation such as this, no kidding, which is why i don't get too much of a hard-on for absolute compliance with a system of law that fails to apply to the event in hand.

Incredibly dumb action, that video more then perfectly shows the hypocracy of it all, should have left it at that.

repost for who missed out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

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repost for who missed out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

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Creative, but completely missing the point. It has nothing to do with Hamas.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Creative, but completely missing the point. It has nothing to do with Hamas.

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You are the one missing the point, what is being mocked = you. Glad they still have sense of humour despite everything but such delicate irony is sadly an exercise in futility.

Well, I wouldn't call that video *delicate*.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Well, I wouldn't call that video *delicate*.

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Compared to how the anti-Israel crowd protest it's a full body massage. These guys just hold them a mirror and ask them to take a long look at theirselves.

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You are the one missing the point, what is being mocked = you.

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I'm not impressed. I don't go about political matters about who has the moral high ground in shooting the legs off people. I go about the suffering of people. People in both Israel and Gaza are suffering.

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Compared to how the anti-Israel crowd protest it's a full body massage.

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You are consistently making a fool of yourself with your relativisation of Israel's government's action. You completely disregard every form of mutual punishment or systematic executions, or any unlawful act of Israel by clinging on to this idea that "Well, Hamas is worse". So basically, any action of Israel against anyone is justified, because Hamas is worse. Right?

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Originally Posted by Hax

I'm not impressed. I don't go about political matters about who has the moral high ground in shooting the legs off people. I go about the suffering of people. Both the people of Israel and Gaza are suffering.

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Did I ever tell you that some of my best friends are black?