U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

Here are two pieces analyzing the "debate" each favoring a different candidate.
McCain Shines at Saddleback Forum
World's Apart
Both are worth looking at imo, but here was the most striking contrast between them:

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Originally Posted by 2nd link

Obama's world can be scarier. It's multicultural. It's realistic (yes, there is evil on the streets of this country as well as in other places, and a lot of evil has been perpetrated in the name of good). It's honest. When does life begin? Only the antiabortionists are clear on that. For the majority of Americans (who are pro-choice), it is "above my pay grade," in Obama's words, where there is no hard and fast line to draw on what's worth dying for, and where people of all faiths have to be respected.

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Originally Posted by 1st link

Obama's response on abortion -- the issue that remains his largest obstacle to evangelical support -- bordered on a gaffe. Asked by Warren at what point in its development a baby gains "human rights," Obama said that such determinations were "above my pay grade" -- a silly answer to a sophisticated question. If Obama is genuinely unsure about this matter, he (and the law) should err in favor of protecting innocent life. If Obama believes that a baby in the womb lacks human rights, he should say so -- pro-choice men and women must affirm (as many sincerely do) that developing life has a lesser status. Here the professor failed the test of logic.

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Also from the first piece, I thought this was one of the more succinct descriptions of the problem that the Obama campaign is facing:

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For many evangelicals, the theoretical Obama -- the Obama of hope and unity -- is intriguing, even appealing. But this opinion is not likely to improve upon closer inspection of his policy views. Obama is one of those rare political figures who seems to grow smaller the closer we approach him. "I want people to know me well," said Obama at the forum. Among religious conservatives, that may not be an advantage.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

McCain Shines at Saddleback Forum

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Wow, one of George W. Bush's speechwriters favors McCain over Obama. Shocking, I tell ya. And as for the "silly answer" about the determination of when life begins, there are other interpretations:

"Above my pay grade" is an expression of humility and submission to God: I don't purport to answer the question that belongs to God. He's trying to be folksy, coining a phrase akin to "the man upstairs." When someone says "the man upstairs," you don't start railing about how we're on the top floor, but that's because we know we're dealing with a folksy expression. People are too touchy on the subject of abortion to process the less common "above my pay grade" as an expression.

Obama may have thought that, in a church, talking to a pastor, with religion hovering around every question, listeners would understand that he was putting himself beneath God. But I didn't pick that up last night, Roger Kimball isn't picking it up, and, scanning the articles on the subject this morning, I'd say almost no one heard it as a religious statement, so we must judge "above my pay grade" as a rhetorical misfire. But we shouldn't say it's "insulting and mendacious."

So I take it you're all on board the Straight Talk Express now, Xiahou? Did they finally get to you?

-edit-

And a far more honest assessment of the evening, from a source even a Xiahou can love:

As far as the crowd is concerned, it was clear that McCain was the favorite. That was hardly a surprise; at a small gathering I attended a few years ago, someone asked Warren how many of his parishioners voted for John Kerry. He thought for a moment and said 15 percent. So the conservative Saddleback crowd, while happy to see Obama in their midst, was not going to be on his side. What they wanted was proof that John McCain was on theirs, and that’s what they got.

I can arrange for a pack mule, Leemy...

https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...ater_hanna.jpg

After seeing the "debate" I have to say that both did very well.

McCain came across as passionate, confident, conservative, and honest.

Obama came across as thoughtful, compassionate, humble, and christian.

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Originally Posted by woad&fangs

Obama came across as ...christian.

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Which was 100% the best result he could have hoped for. How people in America still think he is Muslim is beyond me...

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Wow, one of George W. Bush's speechwriters favors McCain over Obama. Shocking, I tell ya. And as for the "silly answer" about the determination of when life begins, there are other interpretations:

"Above my pay grade" is an expression of humility and submission to God: I don't purport to answer the question that belongs to God.

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It's still a stupid answer. It's obvious that he was trying to say "only God knows"- and that's what's so stupid about his answer. If you don't know whether or not abortion is murder, how the hell can you support it? As the above critique said, if there is any doubt as to whether you're committing murder, how could you be in favor? :dizzy2:


On a different note I heard, my governor, fast Eddie Rendell was on a local radio station and he said something that left me scratching my head. He was asked who he's going to vote for at the Democrat Convention- he said that even though he wants Obama to be president, he would vote for Hillary. Then, for some reason, he went on to say that no delegates (elected or super) are bound to any candidate in the roll call vote and he expected a few Obama delegates to vote Hillary. Why would he say that? Additionally, I don't see how the aforementioned roll call vote can be anything but a black eye for the Obama campaign- it's going to highlight how thin their win really was. Why did they agree to it in the first place?

Edit: Also, Rendell predicted Biden for the VP choice- although he said Hillary would be a better choice.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

It's still a stupid answer. It's obvious that he was trying to say "only God knows"- and that's what's so stupid about his answer. If you don't know whether or not abortion is murder, how the hell can you support it? As the above critique said, if there is any doubt, how could you be in favor? :dizzy2:

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As Obama said he believes that women make this choice after a great deal of thought and isn't that what it is all about? Maybe in McCain's opinion life begins at conception, but certainly not in my view, or that of millions of people like me. So surely it is up to the woman to make the moral decision, not a government to dictate its own moral beliefs?

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

It's still a stupid answer. It's obvious that he was trying to say "only God knows"- and that's what's so stupid about his answer. If you don't know whether or not abortion is murder, how the hell can you support it? As the above critique said, if there is any doubt as to whether you're committing murder, how could you be in favor? :dizzy2:

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It was an honest answer. Many people who know that it is a womens right to choose struggle to reconcile that question.

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Originally Posted by woad&fangs

After seeing the "debate" I have to say that both did very well.

McCain came across as passionate, confident, conservative, and honest.

Obama came across as thoughtful, compassionate, humble, and christian.

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I agree with you, I think both did well.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

It's still a stupid answer.

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Maybe it's a politically stupid answer, but intellectually and scientifically it's an honest answer. Defining what it means to be "alive" is only simple if you're stupid.

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Originally Posted by m52nickerson

It was an honest answer. Many people who know hypothesize/think/believe that it is a womens right to choose struggle to reconcile that question.

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Fixed.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Maybe it's a politically stupid answer, but intellectually and scientifically it's an honest answer. Defining what it means to be "alive" is only simple if you're stupid.

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Try this:

1. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore we should err on the safe side and not allow it.
2. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore it should be allowed.

Which makes more sense?
Obama, based on his answer, believes the second. I think that's monstrous.

Well the DNC is in Denver in one week, it should be interesting to see how it goes. Should be an interesting spectal.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Try this:

1. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore we should err on the safe side and not allow it.
2. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore it should be allowed.

Which makes more sense?
Obama, based on his answer, believes the second. I think that's monstrous.

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Or to step into the land of realism;

The issue of fetal rights is a tough one, while a women has the right to abort a pregnancy, society also has a responsibility to protect pregnant women and there unborn children from harm.

Xiahou, I take it from your absolutism that you are opposed to any sort of attempt to reduce the number of abortions, since that's "monstrous." Anything that does not completely end the practice of legal abortion, by your formulation, is "monstrous."

And by extension, anyone who does not subscribe to your formulation is "monstrous." I'm amazed you bother to be polite to all of these heathens and unbelievers and nunace-hugging latte drinkers.

To every complex question there is a fundamentalist with a simple, wrong answer.

Anyway, take the last turn on this one. We don't want to turn this into an abortion thread, not unless we're also prepared to bring gay marriage and gun rights into the mix.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Well the DNC is in Denver in one week, it should be interesting to see how it goes. Should be an interesting spectal.

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You know what's sad? My mother actually makes up her mind based on what she sees at the party conventions. I keep telling her, "Mom, that's just political theater. It's a circus." But mothers are not required to listen to their whippersnappers.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Xiahou, I take it from your absolutism that you are opposed to any sort of attempt to reduce the number of abortions, since that's "monstrous." Anything that does not completely end the practice of legal abortion, by your formulation, is "monstrous."

And by extension, anyone who does not subscribe to your formulation is "monstrous." I'm amazed you bother to be polite to all of these heathens and unbelievers and nunace-hugging latte drinkers.

To every complex question there is a fundamentalist with a simple, wrong answer.

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Life begins at conception or creation. This answer is not wrong. Life begins when it begins - not some time after it begins. Are there times when people can take the life of another? Yes. Do I believe that abortions have their place in a civil society? Yes, but only at a time of medical emergency or to save the life of the mother. If you want to prevent pregnancy use birth control or abstinence - not homicide.

Obama's answer was asinine.

His opinions on abortion are detestable and covered up only by his unwillingness to let anyone know them in this election.
link to description

Jesus Lemur, come on. Even you can see Oboma dodged the question. :wall:

Obama must have some mind control skills to keep his minions in check. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Obama is one of those rare political figures who seems to grow smaller the closer we approach him.

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Whoever said that is dumb--all political figures grow smaller the closer you approach them. The reason jefferson and washington are heroes is because we only know a little about them.

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Try this:

1. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore we should err on the safe side and not allow it.
2. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore it should be allowed.

Which makes more sense?
Obama, based on his answer, believes the second. I think that's monstrous.

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No, you're framing the question poorly. The question is "where does a baby gain 'human rights'. What obama said was he doesn't know the exact point--neither do I. But I still know it's not at conception, and it sure isn't after 2 months, so some abortions are still ok. Come on Xiahou, you should be able to distinguish between a 5 day old baby and 9 month old baby.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

But I still know it's not at conception, and it sure isn't after 2 months, so some abortions are still ok.

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Had Obama said that or something similar, he would've given a real answer- but no, he went with a weak non-answer. He could have said, for example, "I don't believe a baby should have human rights at conception, but after X months the issue is more cloudy and I'm uncomfortable with abortions after that point."- that would've been a real answer. Of course, he'd never do that because suggesting that a baby can't be aborted at any point before birth would upset the abortion fanatics in his base. So instead, he wimped out and didn't answer the question at all, or rather he said he doesn't know.

As I've said, if one really doesn't know if a fetus is human or not, it's morally reprehensible to say it's ok to terminate it- common decency suggests that you err on the side of human life. And that's the position Obama left himself with in claiming not to know while still supporting abortion.

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Come on Xiahou, you should be able to distinguish between a 5 day old baby and 9 month old baby.

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I can. And I also know both are human and should be treated as such. :yes:

Anyhow, I didn't bring this up to rehash the abortion debate- it was to illustrate how well McCain outperformed Obama at this event. Where McCain came off as direct and confident, Obama stammered and prevaricated. I suspect it will be the debates that will do the most damage to Obama's campaign. I also suspect his campaign knows this- it's why they agreed to the bare minimum of them.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Anyhow, I didn't bring this up to rehash the abortion debate- it was to illustrate how well McCain outperformed Obama at this event. Where McCain came off as direct and confident, Obama stammered and prevaricated. I suspect it will be the debates that will do the most damage to Obama's campaign. I also suspect his campaign knows this- it's why they agreed to the bare minimum of them.

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Actually I can see the attack adds the Dems will be running:
"If you earn $4.5 Million McCain says you aren't rich."

That was a serious mistake on McCain's part.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Which was 100% the best result he could have hoped for. How people in America still think he is Muslim is beyond me...

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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=72667

Old school moon barker if I've ever seen one.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=72667

Old school moon barker if I've ever seen one.

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Why should the average intellectual (not how I said intellectual) care if Obama was brought up Muslim or is Muslim? Does it make him a terrorist? Does it mean he can't govern? Why the :furious3: should I care if he's Muslim, Christain, Jew or Zoroastrian?

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=72667

Old school moon barker if I've ever seen one.

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The list of things I don't care about just increased by 1.

Also I don't get how a child can be any religion at all. They aren't old enough to make that decision. Even if this is true (Which I doubt) it does not mean that Obama ever believed in the basic tenets of Islam.

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Why should the average intellectual (not how I said intellectual) care if Obama was brought up Muslim or is Muslim? Does it make him a terrorist? Does it mean he can't govern? Why the :furious3: should I care if he's Muslim, Christain, Jew or Zoroastrian?

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Why can't he be hosest about his upbringing, whether it be muslim or a racist black theologen? He should be upfront with the good folks he wants votes from and show us his true self, not puff pieces from fawning media elites that crave European socialism within the good old US of A...
http://townhall.com/columnists/BurtP...arxist_brother

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Why can't he be hosest about his upbringing, whether it be muslim or a racist black theologen? He should be upfront with the good folks he wants votes from and show us his true self, not puff pieces from fawning media elites that crave European socialism within the good old US of A...
http://townhall.com/columnists/BurtP...arxist_brother

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The only way I could express my thoughts at that article would get me banned from the site...

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Why can't he be hosest about his upbringing, whether it be muslim or a racist black theologen? He should be upfront with the good folks he wants votes from and show us his true self, not puff pieces from fawning media elites that crave European socialism within the good old US of A...
http://townhall.com/columnists/BurtP...arxist_brother

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Good ol' Snopes. Too bad the common folk don't read it more.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The only way I could express my thoughts at that article would get me banned from the site...

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The article had me laughing due to the fact that there was a "Country First" McCain ad next to it :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The list of things I don't care about just increased by 1.

Also I don't get how a child can be any religion at all. They aren't old enough to make that decision. Even if this is true (Which I doubt) it does not mean that Obama ever believed in the basic tenets of Islam.

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Hey I somewhat agree about children and religion, but old Barry hasn't exactly been honest about his beliefs and upbringing. Read his books, there is some disturbing stuff in them. This guy isn't exactly fond of whites. I find it shocking that people get such a hardon for a dude that reads a great teleprompter but sounds like a retarded parot when asked any questions. He makes George Bush sound like Winston Churchill. Keep on praying to Obamamessiah, he'll deliver you, he's already healed Lemur from is objectional independent streak!!! (like there ever was one)

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The only way I could express my thoughts at that article would get me banned from the site...

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I'm sure you could do a better job of expressing your thoughts than Obama has of expressing his beliefs and core values!!!

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Hey I somewhat agree about children and religion, but old Barry hasn't exactly been honest about his beliefs and upbringing. Read his books, there is some disturbing stuff in them. This guy isn't exactly fond of whites. I find it shocking that people get such a hardon for a dude that reads a great teleprompter but sounds like a retarded parot when asked any questions. He makes George Bush sound like Winston Churchill. Keep on praying to Obamamessiah, he'll deliver you, he's already healed Lemur from is objectional independent streak!!! (like there ever was one)

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I highly doubt that.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I'm sure you could do a better job of expressing your thoughts than Obama has of expressing his beliefs and core values!!!

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Obvious troll is obvious.

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Obvious troll is obvious.

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It was a compliment, a very small one, but a compliment indeed.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

It was a compliment, a very small one, but a compliment indeed.:2thumbsup:

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Weren't you the one that says you take pride in your record as a hooker takes pride in her sores?

Guess that settles it :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Weren't you the one that says you take pride in your record as a hooker takes pride in her sores?

Guess that settles it :2thumbsup:

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Touche', goodnight, my insomnia is cured, unlike these pesky sores...:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Touche', goodnight, my insomnia is cured, unlike these pesky sores...:2thumbsup:

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Check under your bed, Obombus Hussein Saddam Osama bin Democrat will take you at night.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

It was a compliment, a very small one, but a compliment indeed.:2thumbsup:

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Haha I'll take it :wink:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Come on Xiahou, you should be able to distinguish between a 5 day old baby and 9 month old baby.

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Ummm, what? :inquisitive:

:laugh4: I'm enjoying partisans on both sides of the "church debate." Apparently both groups of partisans are pointing to this debate as clear evidence that the other candidate is an incompetent and/or a cheat.

Both sides could compromise and agree to accept the other's position....:laugh4:


NOTE = this is post#1k! We're already up to 25% of Capo II!!

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

NOTE = this is post#1k! We're already up to 25% of Capo II!!

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Haha, stop bragging :wink:

We have 2 weeks to get another 3000 posts - ie before a new thread is started.

What happens in 2 weeks ? (or why will we be starting a new thread ?)

Are the candidates officailly selected or something ?

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

What happens in 2 weeks ? (or why will we be starting a new thread ?)

Are the candidates officailly selected or something ?

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Wow... I could have sworn we were still in the "Race to the Conventions" thread... Nevermind...

Though perhaps a new thread might be a good idea.

Wow. Obama led efforts to defeat a bill protecting babies born from botched abortions, then accused those who brought it up of being lyers.

It really doesn't matter what your stance on abortion is, this is a disgusting position and shows just how far Obama is from the mainstream.

More damaging, it has come out that the bill he voted against was virtually the same as the national bill that Obama claimed to support while calling his accusers lyers.

I'm going to assume that the story is bull unless someone shows the 2 bills side by side.

Wait a minute. If the baby survived the abortion attempt and was born, he would be disfigured and more than likely in a lot of pain, right?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-in-Kenya.html

My Brother's keeper?

Wow, Obamamessiah can't even help his own brother. Sad... Man what is it with these "fathers".:no:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-in-Kenya.html

My Brother's keeper?

Wow, Obamamessiah can't even help his own brother. Sad...
I'm sure he'll tax the crap out me to help one of his dad's bastard children. Man what is it with these "fathers".:no:

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What did he say his favorite Bible verse was at the debate again? :beam:

What do yall think about the part of McCain's health care plan that includes taxing worker's health benefits?

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-in-Kenya.html

My Brother's keeper?

Wow, Obamamessiah can't even help his own brother. Sad...
I'm sure he'll tax the crap out me to help one of his dad's bastard children. Man what is it with these "fathers".:no:

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Got to be a fake. Why would he have posters of both AC and Inter in his shack? Insulation? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Wait a minute. If the baby survived the abortion attempt and was born, he would be disfigured and more than likely in a lot of pain, right?

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Wow - that is an incredibly disgusting rationalization. I cannot believe anyone would support what is essentially infanticide.

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Originally Posted by Woad and Fangs

I'm going to assume that the story is bull unless someone shows the 2 bills side by side.

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Here ya go..

http://www.nrlc.org/ObamaBAIPA/index.html


And looks like Obama's campaign has admitted he's the real lyer.

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Indeed, Mr. Obama appeared to misstate his position in the CBN interview on Saturday when he said the federal version he supported "was not the bill that was presented at the state level."

His campaign yesterday acknowledged that he had voted against an identical bill in the state Senate, and a spokesman, Hari Sevugan, said the senator and other lawmakers had concerns that even as worded, the legislation could have undermined existing Illinois abortion law. Those concerns did not exist for the federal bill, because there is no federal abortion law.

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http://www.nysun.com/national/obama-...bortion/84059/


Finally, the AP has picked this story up. Hopefully it will get a lot more attention now.

The best part is his reasoning for supporting the federal legislation, but not the - now admittedly - identical state version. The state version would actually do something!

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The Obama campaign's explanation is that even if the federal and state versions had identical language, they would have very different consequences.

The federal government doesn't have a law regulating abortion, so Congress could pass a "born alive" measure without actually affecting anything. But Illinois has an abortion law that would be muddled by changing the definition of a person with full rights, the campaign says.

Pam Sutherland, president of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council, backs Obama's position. The federal law essentially does nothing, she said, but the same language in Illinois would complicate state abortion laws.

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Essentially, Barack says that he supports a bill protecting babies born in abortion clinics if it doesn't actually do anything, but he's against it if it would truly affect aborted but living babies thrown into the dumpster - an occurrence which prompted the bill in the first case.

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Wow - that is an incredibly disgusting rationalization. I cannot believe anyone would support what is essentially infanticide.

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And there we go with your gross moronic labeling, it's really starting to piss me off, you know that?.

You would rather have them suffer a failed abortion attempt? And what if the mother is, say, 16? You do realize she will more than likely not be even able to take care of a baby, if she cared for it at all? Same goes for someone who could be incapable of having a baby, be it living conditions, wealth, or mentality.

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

And there we go with your gross moronic labeling, it's really starting to piss me off, you know that?.

You would rather have them suffer a failed abortion attempt? And what if the mother is, say, 16? You do realize she will more than likely not be even able to take care of a baby, if she cared for it at all? Same goes for someone who could be incapable of having a baby, be it living conditions, wealth, or mentality.

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So a baby only has a right to live if it is born healthy and is ensured a good home?

You have very similar views to certain historical figures, but I shant name them as Godwin has not made an appearance in this thread yet.

Gross indeed... :no:

And, from your own article, I guess you forgot this nifty quote:

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"I would have been completely in, full support of the federal bill that everyone support- which was to say - that you should provide assistance to any infant that was born - even if it was the consequence of an induced abortion. That was not the bill that was presented at the state level"

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Read it a couple times, you may find (That is, if you aren't to blind by the right wing xenophobia) that he did not vote for it because it is not the kind of bill he envisioned, one that would provide assistance to any infant, regardless if the infant survived the abortion attempt. In this case, the bill did not provide that.

Hell, he also said a mother's "Mental distress" is not a proper reason for late abortion.

Do you even read your articles?

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

So a baby only has a right to live if it is born healthy and is ensured a good home?

You have very similar views to certain historical figures, but I shant name them as Godwin has not made an appearance in this thread yet.

Gross indeed... :no:

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Yes, you got me. I am in fact, Hitler. I am also Gorring, Himmler, Guderian, Rommel, Speer, and every other Nazi. I love Nazism. I love Fascism, I love death. I love killing and pillaging. Really nice, slick. You may not have broken Godwins law, but you came close enough to put yourself in a lower level than you already are. Really now, because I don't want a baby who can be horribly disfigured and in pain due to failed abortions suffer through that, I'm a Nazi?

You want a baby who has been horribly disfigured and more than likely in a great, GREAT, amount of pain suffer?

I really want to break Godwins Law. I really want to say it. I really want to burst. However, I don't want to be banned, and certainly don't want to waste breath on someone who will never see past Faux News.

I don't think I can continue. Good day.

Unfortunately, Mr. Obama was lying. If you would have read the rest of my post, you would have seen that even his camp admitted it was an identical bill, instead of just slobbering his now debunked excuse from the CBN interview. ~:rolleyes:

Last post. Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

Some interesting pages.

Good night. :thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Yes, you got me. I am in fact, Hitler. I am also Gorring, Himmler, Guderian, Rommel, Speer, and every other Nazi. I love Nazism. I love Fascism, I love death. I love killing and pillaging. Really nice, slick. You may not have broken Godwins law, but you came close enough to put yourself in a lower level than you already are. Really now, because I don't want a baby who can be horribly disfigured and in pain due to failed abortions suffer through that, I'm a Nazi?

You want a baby who has been horribly disfigured and more than likely in a great, GREAT, amount of pain suffer?

I really want to break Godwins Law. I really want to say it. I really want to burst. However, I don't want to be banned, and certainly don't want to waste breath on someone who will never see past Faux News.

I don't think I can continue. Good day.

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Oh this is too good. Do you realize how many conditions a child can be born into where it is in severe pain? And how many kids are born into unfortunate home lives? Lets put them all down, like dogs. Tell me, do you even remember anything from from infancy? Would you rather have gone through severe pain as an infant and be living today, or dead?

No, sir, your rationalizations are sick.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Oh this is too good. Do you realize how many conditions a child can be born into where it is in severe pain? Lets put them all down, like dogs. Tell me, do you even remember anything from from infancy? Would you rather have gone through severe pain as an infant and be living today, or dead?

No, sir, your rationalizations are sick.

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Guess I can't stay away.

We are discussing if an infant who survived an abortion attempt should live. Now, the baby would be horribly disfigured (I think we both agree abortion should be outlawed) and in a severe amount of pain. Would you really want the baby to go through that? Would you really like a baby, a disfigured and pain ridden baby, to actually have to feel that pain every moment? Would you really?

For the sake of everyone, I have encased, in the spoiler tags, pictures of aborted fetus's, which are in links so you have the option of not looking. Now, look, and tell me, if a baby survived through what they died through, would it not be in pain and disfigured? I may sound brutal, or as PJ would call, Nazism (You realize you have a lot of balls to say that, right?) but I find it more humane to not make a baby suffer through that. And besides, I find it more humane to outlaw abortion in general. So no, I do not support killing babies still in the mother's womb. However, I do not support making anyone go through what survivors of abortions do.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://img501.imagshack.us/my.php?image=abortionhb4.pg

http://img172.imagshack.us/my.php?image=abortion2cm1.pg

http://img501.imagshack.us/my.php?image=abortion3bx0.pg

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

We are discussing if an infant who survived an abortion attempt should live. Now, the baby would be horribly disfigured (I think we both agree abortion should be outlawed) and in a severe amount of pain. Would you really want the baby to go through that? Would you really like a baby, a disfigured and pain ridden baby, to actually have to feel that pain every moment? Would you really?

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Yes. And I think in 20 years when that pain isn't even a conscious memory, s/he would thank me.

But this isn't the point. Whether a viable baby out of the womb should be allowed to live is not up to me, you, Barack Obama, or the seedy abortion clinic doctors he wanted to place their lives in. That baby has an inalienable right to life, as the Illinois state congress finally proclaimed after Barack was out of a leadership position.

And I believe a born baby also has the right to not suffer because of an abortion attempt.

So I'm guessing you're alright with allowing babies to suffer, correct?

Swedishfish, I'd advise you to delete those pictures before a moderator sees them.

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Originally Posted by Fenring

Swedishfish, I'd advise you to delete those pictures before a moderator sees them.

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Are they not allowed? I did clarify what they were, put them in a spoil tag, and they're in links so you have the choice and know what you're opening. If a mod has a problem, please, remove them.

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Are they not allowed? I did clarify what they were, put them in a spoil tag, and they're in links so you have the choice and know what you're opening. If a mod has a problem, please, remove them.

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A thread was closed a while ago which contained links to aborted foetuses.

I'm sick of abortion topics... seriously... it seems like all we get are the following three topics on this forum:
1) Abortion
2) Gun Control
3) Fascism = Socialism

And that's it...

1. This is the US General Election thread, not an abortion thread.
2. SwedishFish is relatively new here; we don't/won't host or link to abortion pix. I've disabled the pic links. Readers can easily find such material on their own, or, if interested, via PM.
3. To his credit, SF did follow 'best practices' in referring to controversial material: warn, spoil, link. Good job on that; but no abort pics, please.

McCain not sure how many houses he and wife own

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"I think — I'll have my staff get to you," McCain responded to a question posed by Politico, according to a story Thursday on the publication's Web site. "It's condominiums where — I'll have them get to you."

Later, the McCain campaign told Politico that McCain and his wife, Cindy, have at least four in three states, Arizona, California and Virginia. Newsweek recently estimated the two owned at least seven properties.

On the campaign trail, McCain doesn't refer to his wife's wealth, estimated by some at $100 million and based on her late father's Arizona beer distributorship.

Democratic rival Barack Obama's campaign has been trying to make their wealth more widely known to blunt criticism that Obama is an elitist out of touch with ordinary Americans. Obama owns one house, the family home in Chicago, his campaign said.

According to her 2006 tax returns, Cindy McCain had a total income of $6 million. She has not released her 2007 returns, which she files separately from her husband. McCain's tax returns showed a total income of $405,409 in 2007.

In a forum last week with the Rev. Rick Warren, McCain was asked to define the word "rich" and to give a figure. After promoting his tax policies, McCain said: "I think if you are just talking about income, how about $5 million?" The audience laughed, and he added: "But seriously, I don't think you can — I don't think seriously that — the point is that I'm trying to make here, seriously — and I'm sure that comment will be distorted — but the point is that we want to keep people's taxes low and increase revenues."

Obama, asked the same question at the forum, said those making $250,000 and higher are in the top 3 to 4 percent and "doing well." Obama and his wife, Michelle, reported making $4.2 million in 2007.

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:smash:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I'm sick of abortion topics.....

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I apologize. The point is that Obama took an extreme position in 2003 which many would find reprehensible, then lied about it when questioned in 2008. Now he is justifying his support of a federal law but not an identical state law because the federal law would do absolutely nothing. That leaves many questions unanswered...

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

McCain not sure how many houses he and wife own



:smash:

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That's gonna hurt him.

CR

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

I apologize. The point is that Obama took an extreme position in 2003 which many would find reprehensible, then lied about it when questioned in 2008.

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We're always happy to accept your apologies, PJ. A Chicago Tribune reporter has put together an exhaustive and complete examination of this controversy, which you can read here. If you can find a more detailed enumeration of the events and issues, I'll give you a shiny nickel.

The history makes it clear that Obama's role in delaying "born-alive" legislation was minor and based on very understandable reservations of many pro abortion rights legislators in Springfield. There is simply no way to paint him as an "extremist" when multiple versions of this same legislation failed in both chambers, often over bi-partisan concerns -- though Jill Stanek is apparently having some success pushing this angle with those who don't have the patience you've had to wade through all the bills and arguments.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.c...97C50223D7ECD3

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Originally Posted by Obama

"Somebody asked John McCain, 'How many houses do you have?’ And he said, I’m not sure. I’ll have to check with my staff. True quote: I’m not sure, I’ll have to check with my staff. So they asked his staff and he said, at least four. At least four! ...

"If you’re like me and you’ve got one house – or you were like the millions of people who are struggling right now to keep up with their mortgage so that they don’t lose their home — you might have a different perspective. By the way, the answer is: John McCain has seven homes. So there’s just a fundamental gap of understanding between John McCain's world and what people are going through every single day here in America."

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Mind you, this is coming from a guy who made over $4.000.000 (along with his wife) last year :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Fenring

Mind you, this is coming from a guy who made over $4.000.000 (along with his wife) last year :laugh4:

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Hey, Obama's got to hit back. The McCain Machine is portraying Obama as elitist and out of touch with ordinary citizens. It works. The drawback for McCain camp is that it is not a clever move if your own candidate belongs to the super-rich.

The problem though is that Obama works better as an unassailable, almost aloof candidate. New, fresh, unspoiled by dirty tricks.
The Republicans are trying to turn this into a mud slinging fight so they can beat him from experience. Obama faces Luke's 'Return of the Jedi dilemma': strike back, give in to the dark side, and you lose by becoming one of them. Don't strike back, and they'll destroy you.

Clinton tried it against Obama, and failed. But this was because the democratic electorate was fed up with mud-slinging, and, more importantly, because it made Hillary resemble the Republican cartoon of the Clintons, that the Democrats bought hook, line and sinker: power hungry maniacs who won't shy away from any dirty means to gain power.

Alas, Clinton lost. The Democrats are now left with Obama, the candidate that by default is not capable of defeating the Republicans at their own dirty games.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

McCain not sure how many houses he and wife own



:smash:

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Atleast McCain doesn't have any brothers living on $1 a month. But then again, Obamamessiah only makes 4 million a year, so I guess he doesn't have the means to "help a brutha out"...:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

McCain not sure how many houses he and wife own

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Whats the angle here? Everyone knows he's filthy rich. When's that last time we had a candidate who wasn't wealthier than all of us put together?

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What do yall think about the part of McCain's health care plan that includes taxing worker's health benefits?

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This is better. Got any links so I can read up?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26336195

I guess we get to find out on Saturday who Obama's VP will be...

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Originally Posted by woad&fangs

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26336195

I guess we get to find out on Saturday who Obama's VP will be...

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He won't announce on a Saturday - no one watches news over the weekend and as such the news is less likely to impact. The Obama campaign will announce on Friday.

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Originally Posted by Fenrig

Mind you, this is coming from a guy who made over $4.000.000 (along with his wife) last year :laugh4:

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According to McCain that isn't rich.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Atleast McCain doesn't have any brothers living on $1 a month. But then again, Obamamessiah only makes 4 million a year, so I guess he doesn't have the means to "help a brutha out"...:laugh4:

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LOL WUT?

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

What do yall think about the part of McCain's health care plan that includes taxing worker's health benefits?

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Were did you see that?

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Originally Posted by m52nickerson

Were did you see that?

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Links and explanation here

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

LOL WUT?

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wut? yo aint gotz de 4-1-1 on dis? I dun postit jus abit ago...

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

wut? yo aint gotz de 4-1-1 on dis? I dun postit jus abit ago...

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Since when was Obama Jamaican? :wink:

The debates have been agreed to. 3 debates and a VP debate.